You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Convenience store shootout,
- Thread starter HiBC
- Start date
Double Naught Spy
New member
At 45.5 seconds, the daughter shoots the burglar in the back. She could have hit her mom if the robber had turned or was using a ball round that went through the bad guy then into her mom....
Something about knowing what's behind your target. And not your mom.
Oh yeah. As noted above, they won the fight, which is good. However, it was not because of superior fighting competence. They got exceptionally LUCKY several times during the fight, one of which when Tyrone Lee took the revolver from the old lady and tried to shoot her with it, but fortunately, her gun was empty.
I'll agree the shot to the bad guys back while his body was covering the Mom had a lot of bad potential.
I'm neither praising or criticizing. I saw "fog of war" ,chaos,and things that did not go right.
Its not a "This is how you do it" video. I'll give them credit for not going totally paniced.
I have seen video of LEO's who did not perform too well with a gun pointed at them.One went into a "EEK!,you caught me naked in the shower"pose as he did a vaguely pointed mag dump at the person shooting at him. He hit nothing.The bad guy drove away.
I just thought it beneficial to see things happen fast with the realistic chaos of things not going as expected,complicated by the perp grabbing a loved one.
I think a key factor was these women stayed in the fight. They kept shooting as long as they could.
Its easy to be John Wicks in the imagination. IMO, for most of us,it might be good to find just a little humility in the vid. Bad guys don't come with the beeper on a shot timer.
They start with the moment you aren't ready,you are off balance,etc.
I'm neither praising or criticizing. I saw "fog of war" ,chaos,and things that did not go right.
Its not a "This is how you do it" video. I'll give them credit for not going totally paniced.
I have seen video of LEO's who did not perform too well with a gun pointed at them.One went into a "EEK!,you caught me naked in the shower"pose as he did a vaguely pointed mag dump at the person shooting at him. He hit nothing.The bad guy drove away.
I just thought it beneficial to see things happen fast with the realistic chaos of things not going as expected,complicated by the perp grabbing a loved one.
I think a key factor was these women stayed in the fight. They kept shooting as long as they could.
Its easy to be John Wicks in the imagination. IMO, for most of us,it might be good to find just a little humility in the vid. Bad guys don't come with the beeper on a shot timer.
They start with the moment you aren't ready,you are off balance,etc.
unclenunzie
New member
Just stepping through the video, the daughter's pistol looks like a very very short barrel like a beretta 22lr or 25. Her hand nearly covers it entirely. The Mom's revolver is hard to get a clear view of, but one fired shot looks to me like it is a stainless 38 special DA/SA snub.
They had determination for sure, but yeah, don't stop shooting until the threat is stopped.
They had determination for sure, but yeah, don't stop shooting until the threat is stopped.
As others have said, they didn't do everything right, and in a way that is the point and it isn't the point (yeah, yeah).
Many might dismiss it as, "they didn't do it right, I would, nothing to see here" and that is the wrong message. They may have had a ton of training (maybe not, but you never know). When the adrenaline dumps fine coordination and all plans go out the window. Training, more training, and more training is the best way to increase our odds of doing it right. However, it is not a guarantee. I'm making a mental note to sign up for some more training this summer since it has been a while (I don't think I can fit in a trip to NH for SIG Academy, but if I can I will, if not I'll go with someone local).
Second, when the bad guy came back after being shot at (and maybe shot) it means one thing, and it is no good. At that point, you shoot and keep shooting until he turns around and leaves or otherwise stops coming at you.
Finally, carry/have enough gun. Both seemed to have small BUGs (a small auto and a J-frame or equivalent). They make terrific second guns as backup to something bigger in case your main gun fails, you are on the ground and can't get to your main gun, or your main gun is out of ammo (and in rare cases, when you just can't have anything bigger). I don't like them as main guns for this reason (you see the older woman shoot until she is out and he is still after them). They didn't even conceal the guns on their persons, they had them under the counter where they could have had a shotgun, carbine, and easily a full size .45 or .357mag or two (or three, plus extra ammo).
What I take out of it... Be sure to get training, then do it again. Practice often (not the same as #1). Have a big enough gun. Keep shooting as long as there is a threat. Have a backup plan because the one constant in this world is, whatever can go wrong, will go wrong.
At least they both got out, so regardless of what we say they could have done better (or we can try to do ourselves in such a situation), it worked out well in the end. In all cases, having a gun when you need it trumps not having one.
Many might dismiss it as, "they didn't do it right, I would, nothing to see here" and that is the wrong message. They may have had a ton of training (maybe not, but you never know). When the adrenaline dumps fine coordination and all plans go out the window. Training, more training, and more training is the best way to increase our odds of doing it right. However, it is not a guarantee. I'm making a mental note to sign up for some more training this summer since it has been a while (I don't think I can fit in a trip to NH for SIG Academy, but if I can I will, if not I'll go with someone local).
Second, when the bad guy came back after being shot at (and maybe shot) it means one thing, and it is no good. At that point, you shoot and keep shooting until he turns around and leaves or otherwise stops coming at you.
Finally, carry/have enough gun. Both seemed to have small BUGs (a small auto and a J-frame or equivalent). They make terrific second guns as backup to something bigger in case your main gun fails, you are on the ground and can't get to your main gun, or your main gun is out of ammo (and in rare cases, when you just can't have anything bigger). I don't like them as main guns for this reason (you see the older woman shoot until she is out and he is still after them). They didn't even conceal the guns on their persons, they had them under the counter where they could have had a shotgun, carbine, and easily a full size .45 or .357mag or two (or three, plus extra ammo).
What I take out of it... Be sure to get training, then do it again. Practice often (not the same as #1). Have a big enough gun. Keep shooting as long as there is a threat. Have a backup plan because the one constant in this world is, whatever can go wrong, will go wrong.
At least they both got out, so regardless of what we say they could have done better (or we can try to do ourselves in such a situation), it worked out well in the end. In all cases, having a gun when you need it trumps not having one.
I think the type of firearms used by the women is worth noting. I often see women in gun stores being talked into, by their male friends or the salesmen, very diminutive firearms because it seems much more manageable and many women have small hands. Those aren't unreasonable concerns, but those firearms are often challenging to shoot for even experienced shooters. Would a full-size pistol have made a difference here? Maybe not, but if you're stashing a firearm off body I don't know if you need a snub nosed revolver.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Bigger guns tend to be easier to shoot and often have higher capacity and may be chambered in more powerful rounds.... if you're stashing a firearm off body I don't know if you need a snub nosed revolver...
A female friend of mine went to a gun store for a home-defense gun (one that was never going to be carried) and the clerk talked her into a compact, 5 shot revolver. There's no reason to have a gun designed for concealed carry as an off-body home defense gun. All of the compromises (disadvantages) that make sense for concealed carry guns provide no benefit at all for an off-body gun. It's a lose-lose.
FireForged
New member
These ladies had more grit than most people and perhaps more grit than some here. The bottom lines is that they armed themselves, refused to be a victim and took action in their own defense. I will simply tip my hat to them, not criticize them.
This is how it goes down. its not some sort of choregraphed episode for your viewing pleasure. Its stressful, chaotic and basically a mess. Don't be fooled by what you see john wick do on the big screen. it doesn't happen that way.
This is how it goes down. its not some sort of choregraphed episode for your viewing pleasure. Its stressful, chaotic and basically a mess. Don't be fooled by what you see john wick do on the big screen. it doesn't happen that way.
These ladies had more grit than most people and perhaps more grit than some here. The bottom lines is that they armed themselves, refused to be a victim and took action in their own defense. I will simply tip my hat to them, not criticize them.
This is how it goes down. its not some sort of choregraphed episode for your viewing pleasure. Its stressful, chaotic and basically a mess. Don't be fooled by what you see john wick do on the big screen. it doesn't happen that way.
I don't think most of us here are expecting John Wick. But to be honest the, "Well they survived so I won't criticize", attitude doesn't help anyone, in my opinion. To me there's a difference between Monday morning quarterbacking and trying to learn something.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Its stressful, chaotic and basically a mess.
Even a well prepared and executed plan does not guarantee survival. A poorly executed plan or lack of preparation does not guarantee failure because, as you note, these things are basically a mess.
HOWEVER if one is going to bother to prepare to to defend ones self these type of scenarios are worth discussing. There was a lot that went wrong here. There was some that went right as well (simply being armed and prepared to shoot for instance). But there is a reason incident reports study what went wrong and what went right. As, hopefully, none of us will ever be involved in an incident and almost surely we will not be involved in enough to become subject matter experts through experience discussion is vital. In fact these types of discussions are likely a major part of any scenarios considered or practiced in training.
I'm the OP.
Of course there is plenty to learn. It certainly could have gone better.I agree with the comments about buying a gun for off-body carry. Most folks can handle the equivalent of a Glock 19 class gun. Buy that one first. Get the little gun if you decide you need it later.
Get the good ammo.Be real careful not to shoot your mom.
There is a lot to be said for a 15 rd mag. Pound him till he goes down.
All good.
Drills in the liquor store and working as a team would be good.
Being better prepared for next time would be good. Especially since the Daughter decided to go for a different line of work.
Of course there is plenty to learn. It certainly could have gone better.I agree with the comments about buying a gun for off-body carry. Most folks can handle the equivalent of a Glock 19 class gun. Buy that one first. Get the little gun if you decide you need it later.
Get the good ammo.Be real careful not to shoot your mom.
There is a lot to be said for a 15 rd mag. Pound him till he goes down.
All good.
Drills in the liquor store and working as a team would be good.
Being better prepared for next time would be good. Especially since the Daughter decided to go for a different line of work.
Most folks can handle the equivalent of a Glock 19 class gun.
This
Let me acknowledge that I carry a J-frame revolver having transitioned from a G19. I'll even acknowledge the hypocrisy of my argument. However remember an appeal to hypocrisy is a logical fallacy in it points out hypocrisy rather than addressing the argument at hand. If I must place a reason it has to do with slide manipulation - off hand slide manipulation is a "probably can do" thing by muscle memory. I can do it at the range, and I can do it in training, but feeling in my left hand is intermittent at best.
"Every" new gun own who goes into the store and buys a new gun should start with a gun in the G19 class with the possible exception of those considering the EZ Smith and Wesson guns designed to address hand strength issues. I don't care if its the G19 or the myriad of other choices that are in the same class (9MM, high capacity, same rough size). This is the gun he or she should train on and then consider other choices to fit a role different than that class of gun (smaller for pocket carry, revolver for revolver reasons, larger, different caliber, etc.)
But you need a benchmark to work from and the G19 class pistol is a great benchmark to work from.
yeah, flesh wounds are not good stoppers. COM is better.I don't know and have not been able to find out what caliber(s) the women were shooting. They fired at the suspect with 2 guns. The older woman used a stainless revolver and the woman used a blued semi-auto.
He was shot in the mouth, neck, arm, back, and leg.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Or, as someone once expressed it, "Life is what happens while you're busy making plans."FireForged said:This is how it goes down. its not some sort of choregraphed episode for your viewing pleasure. Its stressful, chaotic and basically a mess. Don't be fooled by what you see john wick do on the big screen. it doesn't happen that way.
zincwarrior
New member
Well up until .41 the shots were effective and the threat had ceased. When he started to come back they needed to act again but hesitated, and his lateral movement messed them up.
I can't fault them much. They did not have time to lock the door once he egressed and he came back in quickly.
I can't fault them much. They did not have time to lock the door once he egressed and he came back in quickly.
FireForged
New member
"Well they survived so I won't criticize", attitude doesn't help anyone, in my opinion.
Ok, lets examine this ..
These ladies are not going to be helped by anything you are saying here. They are either satisfied with their level of planning, training and decision making.. or they're not.
As far as any critique helping anyone else, lets consider that. A person either has a gun on their person or they don't. A person either hesitates or they don't. A person either knows how to handle a firearm properly or they don't. A person is either a good shot or they arnt. A person will make errors in the moment due to stress or they wont. Very few of those issues are going to me remedied by the simple realization that they can happen.
Most people are not going to wear a firearm at their jiffy mart job. Most people are not in control of whether or not they hesitate in the face of real peril. Most people are going to commit safety violations when handling a firearm is such a circumstance. Most people are either self motivated to be a decent marksman or they are not.. this video and any critique seen in this thread is not likely to encourage anyone reading it to go out and practice more or less than they already do.
So if by saying she mishandled the gun or that she needs to learn to shoot better or that she hesitated or get the good ammo, I am not really sure who that is supposed to help and I am not sure how exactly you expect it to help the reader. A person who is reading threads on a gun forum is very likely leaps and bounds past any criticism you decide to offer in the name of "helping" someone deal with a similar situation.
The ladies had a firearm at their disposal, they knew how to use it, they did use it, didnt really hesitate (much) and ultimately caused the robber to leave and they went home uninjured. I say good job.
If someone reading this thread is genuinely "helped" by reading the criticism of these ladies in this specific circumstance, I would sure like to hear about it.
Last edited:
If someone reading this thread is genuinely "helped" by reading the criticism of these ladies in this specific circumstance, I would sure like to hear about it.
It helps me. It helps to sit and think about these scenarios. I see that as the point of this subforum, and as my time is more limited these days doing a poor man's AAR is closer than I can get to force on force or day or multi-day training events of the past. If you're not helped by it, fair enough. If these women aren't helped by it, fair enough. I can't control who is or isn't helped by this, but I find value in the discussion and I like talking it out (the madness of using a forum for discussion). This subforum exists for a reason. If you don't agree with my interpretation of that reason, fair enough. If you want to go the, "This is all pointless because they survived route", you're welcome to and you can put all the quotes around all the forms of the verb "help" that you can ever imagine. But it doesn't mean I have to agree with you.
Last edited:
Ok, lets examine this ..
These ladies are not going to be helped by anything you are saying here. They are either satisfied with their level of planning, training and decision making.. or they're not.
As far as any critique helping anyone else, lets consider that. A person either has a gun on their person or they don't. A person either hesitates or they don't. A person either knows how to handle a firearm properly or they don't. A person is either a good shot or they arnt. A person will make errors in the moment due to stress or they wont. Very few of those issues are going to me remedied by the simple realization that they can happen.
Most people are not going to wear a firearm at their jiffy mart job. Most people are not in control of whether or not they hesitate in the face of real peril. Most people are going to commit safety violations when handling a firearm is such a circumstance. Most people are either self motivated to be a decent marksman or they are not.. this video and any critique seen in this thread is not likely to encourage anyone reading it to go out and practice more or less than they already do.
So if by saying she mishandled the gun or that she needs to learn to shoot better or that she hesitated or get the good ammo, I am not really sure who that is supposed to help and I am not sure how exactly you expect it to help the reader. A person who is reading threads on a gun forum is very likely leaps and bounds past any criticism you decide to offer in the name of "helping" someone deal with a similar situation.
The ladies had a firearm at their disposal, they knew how to use it, they did use it, didnt really hesitate (much) and ultimately caused the robber to leave and they went home uninjured. I say good job.
If someone reading this thread is genuinely "helped" by reading the criticism of these ladies in this specific circumstance, I would sure like to hear about it.
I agree with post 37 from tunnelrat.
I would like to think everyone reading what these ladies did would be helped by this review. all this restates what many say.... get a gun of a duty caliber and learn how to properly use it, AND mentally prepare yourself to do so.
FireForged
New member
I was not asking if the idea of a discussion forum or the spirit of what discussion forums are intended to foster- helps. I was talking about the specific comments and critiques seen in this thread.
I can accept that the these type of discussions can help.. that is why I have been here for 20 years. That said, there is a difference between thoughtful and productive analysis and what I have seen so far in this thread. I will make an exception for post #25 (good post) and couple others but it seems to go sideways after that.
If the specific comments in this thread has helped you.. great. I didn't expect it
If thoughtful analysis is the goal, I wouldn't mind seeing it as well as participating in the discussion. I will wait and see.
Until then I will simply say (good job) to these ladies and leave it at that.
I can accept that the these type of discussions can help.. that is why I have been here for 20 years. That said, there is a difference between thoughtful and productive analysis and what I have seen so far in this thread. I will make an exception for post #25 (good post) and couple others but it seems to go sideways after that.
If the specific comments in this thread has helped you.. great. I didn't expect it
If thoughtful analysis is the goal, I wouldn't mind seeing it as well as participating in the discussion. I will wait and see.
Until then I will simply say (good job) to these ladies and leave it at that.
Last edited: