Constitutional Basics

[davidsog]

One might then ask, if there are 20,000 existing gun laws on the books (a number I see cited often, with no substantiation. Let's just go with it, for argument), how can one compile "measurable metrics" if 19,997 of those 20,000 laws are never enforced?

Absolutely. There are plenty of gun laws and most of them are not enforced when they should be enforced.

First of all we have to know the facts ourselves. That is key. Secondly but just as important, we have to shift the narrative from "Critical Race Theory" style valuing storying telling over to fact and result.

https://uniteyouthdublin.files.word...an_stefancic_critical_race_thbookfi-org-1.pdf

Know who you are dealing with.

Fact is on our side. However, It is very much a principle of Resistance.org and others on the left that storying telling and emotion is far more important than fact. Yes, a Harvard Law professor came up with that...well, actually propaganda has been since man walked upright...but he wrapped it in an acceptable package with a nice pedigree. It comes down to the "ends justify the means" so fact is not as important as emotion. Well, the ends do not justify the means in the long run and that is a very dark path we do not want our society to take of emotion over law, obviously.

Here is a good start....very very dry but worth obtaining a copy.

https://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493660

When it comes to mass shooting, that is a people problem not a gun problem.

Turn the conversation from controlling guns to methods of outreach/identification to solve the socio-economic conditions that create mass killers.

Answer the question:

What makes taking as many innocent lives as possible so appealing to these mass shooters?

Fame, revenge, justice, recognition of their power...


What benefit do they get from it?

They are famous and powerful for a moment. Rising far above what they could have achieved in their mediocre existence.

Why are mass shootings a recent phenomenon? What was different about the preceding generations?

Outside of the fact these people are just plain mental this generation has not exactly inoculated itself against failure or identification of their peers who just have met their trigger point.

My thoughts, it is the first generation that was taught everyone's a winner and gets a trophy. Unfortunately many of them have never been equipped with the real tools to be successful. They cannot fail and have never had to be "the loser". They have not demonstrate the character to congratulate the winner, to pick themselves up, figure out a new plan of attack, and not give up. When they do win, it was expected. There is no graciousness or demonstration of strength of character to turn around and help those who did not win to be successful.

They have grown up expecting success and praise. Their self image is grounded in a much larger fiction than it should be. They feel justified in re-establishing themselves as force to be reckoned with when reality gets in the way of the fiction. Fight or Flight....their ID is at risk.

The interpersonal skills are stunted leaving them more isolated within that self image fiction. That is why they get so involved in "friends", "unfriended" and all the other online stuff other generations see little importance in. Online others are treated with so little regard for their worth as a human being it is easy to dehumanize others when you lack interpersonal skills in the first place. This is also one reason why you see so much inappropriate offense stemming from the latest generation. It is also why their ability to reach out and help or even identify those at risk is stunted.

Their enjoyment and entertainment involves killing human being shaped electrons. The more you kill, the bigger you win. Their entertainment involves watching a movie with a hero that picks up a gun, kills everyone who causes him problems, and is adored by the world. The ultimate justification and moral foundation that it is right to take a human life.

All the ingredients are present that are required to break down the barriers of normal human instinct to not kill other human beings but band together, hunt mammoth, and fight off the sabre tooth tigers for mutual survival.

Not meant to be comprehensive or definitive but rather once we have the answers to those questions we can then answer How to identify and reach out to prevent. The answer is we created an environment that is much easier for a warped mind to established the psychological conditions necessary for human beings to take another human beings life.

Say you are in a Mass Shooting, what should the response be?

The gun grabbers answer to all of that is get rid of the guns. We know that is simplistic and will not stop those determined to prey upon others.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Killers gotta kill.

I'll just mention, once again, that the worst school massacre in the history of the United States was Bath Consolidated School in Lansing, Michigan, in 1927. 44 killed, 58 injured. Weapon of choice: dynamite.

The only reason the death toll wasn't significantly higher was that the school had two wings. The perp mined both wings, but one side didn't go off.

 

[44 AMP]

While it sounds plausible, the fact is that for every one of those "disturbed children" that becomes a human time bomb, there are literally millions exposed to the same social conditions and pressures that do not.

Nature or Nurture? an old and strongly debated question. The classic example is two brothers, raised the same, one becoming a priest and the other a criminal...

Personally I think free will plays as much a part as anything, and more than many environmental or hereditary factors.
But we are far from the OP now.

one point to be remembered, every law is valid, and "constitutional" until, and unless a court with the proper authority rules it isn't. No matter how stupid it seems, if it is passed as a law, it is a valid law until it isn't.

 

[davidsog]

Nearly 50 percent of homicide perpetrators gave some type of warning signal, such as making a threat or leaving a note, before the event.1

MMmmmmmm..................

More Awareness, more reporting, more action to get help to those who need it before violence occurs???

Firearms used in school-associated homicides and suicides came primarily from the perpetrator’s home or from friends or relatives.3

Starts at home?? What are your children doing??? Status of your guns?

More Awareness, more reporting, more action???

Most school-associated violent deaths occur during transition times – immediately before and after the school day and during lunch. 1

Ohh...Armed teachers and Security?

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/youthviolence/schoolviolence/SAVD.html

Much more effective than any gun ban....

 

[USNRet93]

That's all just crazy talk. Hell, everyone knows that the only guns Obama didn't take away were the ones he left for Hillary to seize.

Hillary who?

 

[davidsog]

How many of those existing 20,000 (or so) gun laws are like this? How many have been on the books since forever but have never even been used to charge someone? Or have been on the books forever and are routinely ignored by the police?

I think you are absolutely right. There are probably a staggering amount of such laws.

How can we begin compiling a body of statistics showing how many existing gun laws are NOT enforced, even when they could be cited in incidents involving firearms?

It starts at the local and state level. Be familiar with your town, city, and state laws. You do not have to know the entire country...just where you live.

In my state, the City, County, and State each has a section for Alcohol and another for firearms. You think we are all a bunch of drunks shooting things up.

 

[davidsog]

In my city, you cannot have blanks or any provisions to fire blanks unless they are .22 caliber crimped blanks or tear gas cartridges.

So, no CAP guns for Christmas and no blank adaptors allowed.

You cannot shoot BB guns without permission of the Chief of Police either.

No Red Ryder for Ralphie here!!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

It starts at the local and state level. Be familiar with your town, city, and state laws. You do not have to know the entire country...just where you live.

I respectfully disagree. Local and state statistics are fragments. What we need is a coordinated, national effort. The statistics should list incidents, and then include an exhaustive examination of what federal, state, and local laws, statutes, ordinances, and regulations applied that were NOT cited, charged, and prosecuted.

Simple example: Until a few years ago, two cities in Connecticut (New Britain and New London, specifically) had ordinances in their city codes that prohibited the concealed carry of firearms. Friends who are NRA instructors in Connecticut have told me that, at that time, the state's Board of Firearms Examiners and the State police were promulgating an information pamphlet that informed permit holders (incorrectly) that a Connecticut permit allowed ONLY concealed carry. (Incorrect.)

The state's pro-2A advocacy group informed both municipalities that their ordinances were in direct conflict with state law and with what the applicable state agencies were saying. The two ordinances were subsequently repealed.

In my home town, until a few years ago there was an ordinance that said no one could possess a loaded firearm on any town-owned property. There was no exception for licensed carry on public [town] roads, and there was no exception for police officers on or off duty. After I threatened to sue the town under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 (the same law the NJ Association sued under in the case cited above), they revised the ordinance to exempt the police and to include an exception for carry on public roads pursuant to a state license to carry. But -- the old version had been on the books for 20 or 30 years, and had never been used because the police department considered it to be unenforceable.

Your statement is a recognition of the fragmented patchwork of gun laws across the U.S. If we're going to attack that on a national level on the basis of logic and statistics, the statistics can't be fragmented; they must be comprehensive, and compiled and presented in a way that uses the number to demonstrate how unworkable the existing, fragmented system is.

 

[davidsog]

What we need is a coordinated, national effort. The statistics should list incidents, and then include an exhaustive examination of what federal, state, and local laws, statutes, ordinances, and regulations applied that were NOT cited, charged, and prosecuted.

I think this is something the NRA could compile and it might be very useful. Simply ask for volunteers at the local NRA shooting clubs to look up local ordinances and go down to the courthouse for a records check.

The local clubs submit the information and it is sent to the NRA corporate.

 

[davidsog]

I am sure there are cases backed up in my city with all the children's BB guns and cap gun violations awaiting prosecution....



Future SOTIC grads...

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

LOL indeed...

 

[rwilson452]

I was wondering how many times a gun charge is dropped by a DA in exchange for a guilty plea on another offense. I can't always blame the DA for it, as in most districts they are under stress to end a case as cheaply as possible.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I was wondering how many times a gun charge is dropped by a DA in exchange for a guilty plea on another offense. I can't always blame the DA for it, as in most districts they are under stress to end a case as cheaply as possible.

Probably very often. And to me, that suggests that a lot of these obscure gun laws are not regarded as primary offenses, which means that the police don't know or care about them and they aren't enforced in their own right. Instead, they are used as a bludgeon by the prosecution, added on top of a primary charge or two when the prosecution wants to "throw the book at" someone as a tactic to coerce a plea bargain.

I have commented previously that my great-grandfather was a professor of law (grandfather met grandmother as a result of having taken one of GG's classes). I was brought up with the belief that laws which are enforced rarely, arbitrarily and capriciously are worse than no laws at all, because they create disrespect for the rule of law.

 

[44 AMP]

There are literally thousands of laws still on the books (at all levels) that are no longer enforced. They are almost never repealed or removed, they are just ignored.

There is a state that still has a law on its books that in order to operate a motor vehicle it must be preceeded by a man on foot carrying a red lantern 50 feet in front of the vehicle.

Another one I've heard of is a state with a law on its books that it is illegal to have sex with a virgin. (I suppose they expect newlyweds to honeymoon out of state?? )

Lots and lots of laws on the books that aren't (and in some cases, never were) enforced.

The idea of legislators passing a law that they never intend to be really used, in order to be seen as "doing something" is not new in our Republic.

 

[davidsog]

I have commented previously that my great-grandfather was a professor of law (grandfather met grandmother as a result of having taken one of GG's classes). I was brought up with the belief that laws which are enforced rarely, arbitrarily and capriciously are worse than no laws at all, because they create disrespect for the rule of law.

That is the preferred tactic of today. Look at Mueller's "investigation". No collusion found but let's prosecute anything we possibly can and hope it leads to bigger crime against the real political target.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The idea of legislators passing a law that they never intend to be really used, in order to be seen as "doing something" is not new in our Republic.

It isn’t new but it is certainly a danger. There are plenty of gun laws that could be enforced; but aren’t that would stem calls for more gun control. And selective enforcement can and in some places IS used against peaceable citizens who have the most to lose rather than criminals.

One example I like to use is my grandfather. He carried a pistol in his overalls since I was a boy and long before our state had a concealed carry law. He did it because he knew as a respected citizen, a property owner, and of the right color, he would likely never face the penalties for violating that law. He did not believe the law should work that way; but he knew how it did work.

Had he been missing one of those traits, he might well have had trouble and his fellow citizens would have applauded him being put away. While on the one hand, I appreciate how selective enforcement of the law benefitted a good man, I can’t help but I think that equal application of the law would have stopped an unjust law sooner and benefitted more good men.

 

[Spats McGee]

What we need is a coordinated, national effort. The statistics should list incidents, and then include an exhaustive examination of what federal, state, and local laws, statutes, ordinances, and regulations applied that were NOT cited, charged, and prosecuted.

I think this is something the NRA could compile and it might be very useful. Simply ask for volunteers at the local NRA shooting clubs to look up local ordinances and go down to the courthouse for a records check.

The local clubs submit the information and it is sent to the NRA corporate.

In order for any information or data to be useful, I think the process is going to have to be a wee bit more structured than "volunteers looking up ordinances & doing a records check," if I may understate the matter a bit.

I was wondering how many times a gun charge is dropped by a DA in exchange for a guilty plea on another offense. I can't always blame the DA for it, as in most districts they are under stress to end a case as cheaply as possible.

I suspect the answer is "regularly," particularly in states in which the gun charge is difficult to prove. In that case, it's the "throwaway charge," used for bargaining. For example, AR has the charge of Carrying a Weapon, which requires the prosecution to prove an intent to use the weapon unlawfully against a person. That's going to be more difficult than something like "Possession of a Defaced Firearm." If my defendant has CAW, Possession, Paraphernalia, and Resisting, the CAW is a bargaining chip. If he doesn't take my plea offer, we go to trial on everything.

 

[davidsog]

In order for any information or data to be useful, I think the process is going to have to be a wee bit more structured than "volunteers looking up ordinances & doing a records check," if I may understate the matter a bit.

If it turns out to be useful, yes. However, I am not sure spending millions on it would be the best use of resources initially. See what's out there and learn the lessons on the best way to gather it on the cheap.

My point being this is something we could be putting into action NOW without spending a vast amount of limited resources on.

 

[Spats McGee]

If it turns out to be useful, yes. However, I am not sure spending millions on it would be the best use of resources initially. See what's out there and learn the lessons on the best way to gather it on the cheap.

My point being this is something we could be putting into action NOW without spending a vast amount of limited resources on.

So, you propose . . . .what, exactly? Let me be sure I understand what you propose. I'll start with AB's post:

I respectfully disagree. Local and state statistics are fragments. What we need is a coordinated, national effort. The statistics should list incidents, and then include an exhaustive examination of what federal, state, and local laws, statutes, ordinances, and regulations applied that were NOT cited, charged, and prosecuted.

And moved on to yours:

I think this is something the NRA could compile and it might be very useful. Simply ask for volunteers at the local NRA shooting clubs to look up local ordinances and go down to the courthouse for a records check.

The local clubs submit the information and it is sent to the NRA corporate.

I've pointed out that I don't think this is a very useful plan. I've pointed out that I think it needs to be "a wee bit more structured than that." If I were on the antigun side, and attacking any data that came out of this, here's what I'd say about it:

• It sounds like you want a bunch of volunteers,
  • who may or may not have any formal training in any applicable field (law, law enforcement, statistical analysis), and
  • who may or may not be given any sort of guidance from people trained in such fields;
  • to go look at court records and see what other charges those volunteers think should have been brought.
• Are these witnesses going to read the Arrest/Disposition Reports?
• Interview witnesses?
• Examine evidence?
• Are they going to investigate incidents in which charges were not brought, records of which may not be in "court records"?

A few more questions:

• How exactly do you think they should make the determination that certain statutes are NOT being enforced?
• On what basis will they decide when a charge could have been brought but was not?
• Will they be examining the process by which prosecuting attorneys "bargain away" gun charges in plea deals?

The antgun side throws around all kinds of misleading numbers, and I'm pretty quick to ask, "how did they get that number?" If they used something like the methodology described above, I'd have a field day.

 

[davidsog]

I think you are overthinking things and putting the cart before the horse. Maybe it is because you evision volunteer gathered data as a finished product without considering secondary and tertiary actions.

We call it "paralysis by analysis".

Gather some preliminary data on the cheap initially. Some statistical math well let you know if there is something worth devoting resources towards. Then devote the resources and produce a polished product.