Conspiracy: Substantiated Proof ? Never?
- Thread starter Paul Revere
- Start date
- Status
Daniel Watters
New member
Rich: They _never_ caught the Zodiac Killer. S/He just stopped for some unknown reason.
I tend to agree with Rich on scenario one. While there is no "master conspiracy", there are plenty of people with a gun control agenda who take full advantage of anything that will further their cause. On the other hand, I do believe our government is fully capable of engineering and carrying out conspiracies. They can do it very well.
Who shot JFK....?
[This message has been edited by henryb (edited September 19, 1999).]
Who shot JFK....?
[This message has been edited by henryb (edited September 19, 1999).]
Brett Bellmore
New member
Well, I don't believe in grand conspiracies, either. MINOR conspiracies, that's another matter. Remember the Lautenberg and Kohl amendments, that got tacked onto a final appropriations bill in committee, and were enacted by Congressmen who didn't know they were in the bill? The people in the committe knew those amendments were in there. The Republican and Democrat leadership knew they were in there. And they flat out lied to most members of Congress to make sure that there wasn't a fight over them. THAT was a conspiracy!
Similarly, why do you suppose that Sen. Lott, canny politician that he is, brought the juvenile crime bill up for debate right at the peak of the post-Colombine media campaign? You suppose he was so stupid he didn't realize what the result would be? Nah, it was deliberate.
The Republican "leaders" have often conspired with Democrats to get gun control laws enacted. Heck, look at the way Dole revived the Brady law, after it had been filibustered to death: He got together with the Dems and called the Senate into session with only him and the Democratic leadership present, and revived the bill on a voice vote! (Because a roll call vote would have revealed that there wasn't remotely a quorum present.) That was a conspriracy, IE, a secret agreement to break the law. (In this case, the Constitution's quorum requirement.)
The bottom line is that the rules of the House and Senate are specifically designed to enable the "leaders" to pull the wool over the eyes of the average member of Congress, because the "leaders" of both parties have been consipring together for years to get all sorts of things passed that the average member opposes. But that's not a "grand" conspiracy, it's just a half dozen or so guys.
So count me on scenario one, with the proviso that there ARE conspiracies, small ones, going on all the time, but no great big one. And they don't accomplish anything the majority doesn't at some level want, because they COULD change the rules to stop this stuff if they really cared. But they don't care to, because it gives them "plausible deniability"; They can honestly say that they didn't know there was a gun control provision in that bill... Because they've never demanded the reforms which would have let them know!
I'd add one element to scenario one, though: Public education. The right to keep and bear arms rests on a particular political philosophy which is very suspicious of government. That philosophy is dying out in this country, because most children are raised by the government in their formative years, and what government would ever teach children that they shouldn't trust the government? Public education, really government education, gives the statists an unbeatable "house advantage"; They ARE going to win, eventually, unless we can somehow privatize the education system.
------------------
Sic semper tyranus!
Similarly, why do you suppose that Sen. Lott, canny politician that he is, brought the juvenile crime bill up for debate right at the peak of the post-Colombine media campaign? You suppose he was so stupid he didn't realize what the result would be? Nah, it was deliberate.
The Republican "leaders" have often conspired with Democrats to get gun control laws enacted. Heck, look at the way Dole revived the Brady law, after it had been filibustered to death: He got together with the Dems and called the Senate into session with only him and the Democratic leadership present, and revived the bill on a voice vote! (Because a roll call vote would have revealed that there wasn't remotely a quorum present.) That was a conspriracy, IE, a secret agreement to break the law. (In this case, the Constitution's quorum requirement.)
The bottom line is that the rules of the House and Senate are specifically designed to enable the "leaders" to pull the wool over the eyes of the average member of Congress, because the "leaders" of both parties have been consipring together for years to get all sorts of things passed that the average member opposes. But that's not a "grand" conspiracy, it's just a half dozen or so guys.
So count me on scenario one, with the proviso that there ARE conspiracies, small ones, going on all the time, but no great big one. And they don't accomplish anything the majority doesn't at some level want, because they COULD change the rules to stop this stuff if they really cared. But they don't care to, because it gives them "plausible deniability"; They can honestly say that they didn't know there was a gun control provision in that bill... Because they've never demanded the reforms which would have let them know!
I'd add one element to scenario one, though: Public education. The right to keep and bear arms rests on a particular political philosophy which is very suspicious of government. That philosophy is dying out in this country, because most children are raised by the government in their formative years, and what government would ever teach children that they shouldn't trust the government? Public education, really government education, gives the statists an unbeatable "house advantage"; They ARE going to win, eventually, unless we can somehow privatize the education system.
------------------
Sic semper tyranus!
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
I posted some of what I think about some common conspiracy theories in the thread "the future part II," in reply to a statement from Ivan. However, I am reminded of an old intelligence community maxim:
Once might be happenstance.
Twice might be coincidence.
Thrice is enemy action.
You find me a man who can make the shots Oswald supposedly made, with that rifle, scope and ammunition, under those conditions and within that time frame. Then I will say,"Damn, the Warren Commission was right. It was a lone gunman and no conspiracy." Good luck trying.
------------------
Byron Quick
Once might be happenstance.
Twice might be coincidence.
Thrice is enemy action.
You find me a man who can make the shots Oswald supposedly made, with that rifle, scope and ammunition, under those conditions and within that time frame. Then I will say,"Damn, the Warren Commission was right. It was a lone gunman and no conspiracy." Good luck trying.
------------------
Byron Quick
rabbit assassin
Moderator
I just saw a tv show 2 nights ago about the JFK assassination. They got this guy with the same rifle, scope and ammo as Oswald had . They set up targets at the three distances the shots were fired at with targets of a head and shoulder. They gave him the correct time to do it in (I forget what it was, it was either 6, 8 or 12 seconds).
He hit the head at the two closest targets and the neck and head on the furtherst target. They tried this a few times and he hit the target every time. The guy shooting was from some shooting tv show.
They also looked at the possibilities of shots from the grassy knoll and discounted that possibility because of the bullet trajectories plus therewas a big road sign obscuring the view.
They had all this info about the russians investigating it and the evidence suggested 1 gunman, but some of the soviets that Oswald couldn't have made the shots because he wasn't good enough. The russians did the same testswith the rifle but their shooters wern't as successful.
I forget the name of the show - It looked a bit cheesey to me so I wasn't taking that seriously. I thought it would be another secret alien shoots JFK thing but it suprised me.
I'm not saying I believe what they said but It does make me realise that maybeOswald did do it himself. I'm undecided but it was a different perspective for once.
He hit the head at the two closest targets and the neck and head on the furtherst target. They tried this a few times and he hit the target every time. The guy shooting was from some shooting tv show.
They also looked at the possibilities of shots from the grassy knoll and discounted that possibility because of the bullet trajectories plus therewas a big road sign obscuring the view.
They had all this info about the russians investigating it and the evidence suggested 1 gunman, but some of the soviets that Oswald couldn't have made the shots because he wasn't good enough. The russians did the same testswith the rifle but their shooters wern't as successful.
I forget the name of the show - It looked a bit cheesey to me so I wasn't taking that seriously. I thought it would be another secret alien shoots JFK thing but it suprised me.
I'm not saying I believe what they said but It does make me realise that maybeOswald did do it himself. I'm undecided but it was a different perspective for once.
Actually there were 2 separate Zodiac serial killers...the original in the SF Bay area(late 60's early 70's) who was never caught and just stopped; and one in New York (80's) who was caught.
They were determined to be different people as the NY guy was too young to have been the SF guy
------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
They were determined to be different people as the NY guy was too young to have been the SF guy
------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
Long Path,
There are many things I cannot do that are done easily by others. Thanks for the reminder, though. You can make those shots with that rifle, scope, and ammo at a moving target in that time frame? My hat's off.
------------------
Byron Quick
There are many things I cannot do that are done easily by others. Thanks for the reminder, though. You can make those shots with that rifle, scope, and ammo at a moving target in that time frame? My hat's off.
------------------
Byron Quick
Rich Lucibella
Staff
For the record, I didn't say that I don't believe in conspiracies. They're all around us and we talk about them daily on TFL. "Conspiracy" is not a dirty word on this site. we don't have a problem with such discussions. The problem is with the way out, global conspiracies for which we are given little or no substantiation.
What's the problem with the single assassin theory for Kennedy? There are too many incongruities. Thus, the simple answer doesn't fit...look for the conspiracy. I agree.
On the other hand, what's the problem with the conspiracy theory in the recent rash of shootings? There are too many incongruities. For instance, who is the Anti's single greatest enemy? What are their greatest recent defeats?
Answer: The NRA and State CCW laws, respectively.
When we see a rash of similar crimes, we can't assume conspiracy first. Otherwise, the bombings of abortion centers would be a "conspiracy". Home invasions by gangbangers would be a "conspiracy". Internet fraud would be a "conspiracy". Carjackings would be a "conspiracy"....ad nauseum.
So lemme ask ya's? How come not one of these shooters has an NRA Membership or State CCW card conveniently tucked in his wallet? You want mileage from a church shooter? Not only make him crazy, but get him into the NRA and get him a Texas CCW. That's simple. That's mileage, especially since it buries George W. at the same time.
Thus, I conclude: The conspiracy just doesn't fit. Look for the simple explanation.
Rich
What's the problem with the single assassin theory for Kennedy? There are too many incongruities. Thus, the simple answer doesn't fit...look for the conspiracy. I agree.
On the other hand, what's the problem with the conspiracy theory in the recent rash of shootings? There are too many incongruities. For instance, who is the Anti's single greatest enemy? What are their greatest recent defeats?
Answer: The NRA and State CCW laws, respectively.
When we see a rash of similar crimes, we can't assume conspiracy first. Otherwise, the bombings of abortion centers would be a "conspiracy". Home invasions by gangbangers would be a "conspiracy". Internet fraud would be a "conspiracy". Carjackings would be a "conspiracy"....ad nauseum.
So lemme ask ya's? How come not one of these shooters has an NRA Membership or State CCW card conveniently tucked in his wallet? You want mileage from a church shooter? Not only make him crazy, but get him into the NRA and get him a Texas CCW. That's simple. That's mileage, especially since it buries George W. at the same time.
Thus, I conclude: The conspiracy just doesn't fit. Look for the simple explanation.
Rich
Here is a documented conspiracy by our government that ,to be blunt, is equal to mass murder on a scale much bigger than Waco. The American Legion Magazine had a article that documented indetail the truth about the atomic tests in Nevada. It was shown that whenever the wind blew towards Las Vegas, the tests would be canceled. BUt if the wind blew down towards St. George Utah, the government would be sure to set the bombs off. It seems the lives of the patriotic Mormons of southern Utah didnt count for much by our government. The cancer rate over the years in southern Utah was horrendous. These manipulations of the testing were outright criminal and many died because of this outright conspiracy by "our" government.
Re Atomic tests...
Yep, but what kind of conspiracy?
Was the intent to induce cancer in southern Utah Mormons?
Or to cover-up negligence and stupid judgement?
The actual conspiracy was to cover it up (something ALL Governments do routinely)....not to kill Mormons.
------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
Yep, but what kind of conspiracy?
Was the intent to induce cancer in southern Utah Mormons?
Or to cover-up negligence and stupid judgement?
The actual conspiracy was to cover it up (something ALL Governments do routinely)....not to kill Mormons.
------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
I believe the government felt the nuclear tests had to be done quickly and "compromises" were made. But some ugly questions arise:
1) Why did the tests have to be done on our mainland? We had airplanes which could have taken the testing to any one of a thousand less populated areas.
2) If the tests "had" to be done there, why were the people not relocated? We managed to do it with the Japanese-Americans?
- Secrecy could have been maintained by simply saying the move was a necessity of war. If the WWII crowd tells the truth, this would have been an acceptable "sacrifice".
3. Note also that hundreds (thousands?) of GIs were forced to be very near the tests - many of them died of consequent radiation exposure.
4. This testing joins the long list of government abuses, deceptions, and outright lies.
- giving the Indians blankets infected with smallpox.
- forsaking our POWs/MIAs of WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and hundreds of others lost in small groups during the Cold War. In many cases I have seen and documented firm info where they were.
- denying the effects of Agent Orange on GIs.
- denying Gulf War Syndrome when birth defects were double and triple statistical norms and called "not atypical".
- reneging on promised military benefits.
- unauthorized, illegal, immoral medical tests and experimentation on GIs who didn't know what was going on. (LSD and a host of other mind-altering drugs)
- withholding medication from black syphilis patients to "see what would happen".
- withholding medication from retirees, yet today, because "we don't handle that medication because it's too expensive". What do they give patients instead???
There's more. This is just off the top of my head and doesn't include government perfidy in thousands of other incidents happening yet today. While I have no websites for you to peruse, I can tell you first-hand of most of these abuses.
You are right, DC. The conspiracy was to cover up their perfidy. But what chaps my hide is that the conspiracy was done BEFORE the fact - it was all part of the decision-making process. Though the hundreds of Mormons and GIs are not any deader because of this pre-planned deception, in my book it changes the charge from negligent manslaughter to murder.
(Just in case my tone is not adequate, I am seething.)
Mykl is right. Follow the money. But what is worse, it usually was done simply to advance someone's career.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited September 19, 1999).]
1) Why did the tests have to be done on our mainland? We had airplanes which could have taken the testing to any one of a thousand less populated areas.
2) If the tests "had" to be done there, why were the people not relocated? We managed to do it with the Japanese-Americans?
- Secrecy could have been maintained by simply saying the move was a necessity of war. If the WWII crowd tells the truth, this would have been an acceptable "sacrifice".
3. Note also that hundreds (thousands?) of GIs were forced to be very near the tests - many of them died of consequent radiation exposure.
4. This testing joins the long list of government abuses, deceptions, and outright lies.
- giving the Indians blankets infected with smallpox.
- forsaking our POWs/MIAs of WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and hundreds of others lost in small groups during the Cold War. In many cases I have seen and documented firm info where they were.
- denying the effects of Agent Orange on GIs.
- denying Gulf War Syndrome when birth defects were double and triple statistical norms and called "not atypical".
- reneging on promised military benefits.
- unauthorized, illegal, immoral medical tests and experimentation on GIs who didn't know what was going on. (LSD and a host of other mind-altering drugs)
- withholding medication from black syphilis patients to "see what would happen".
- withholding medication from retirees, yet today, because "we don't handle that medication because it's too expensive". What do they give patients instead???
There's more. This is just off the top of my head and doesn't include government perfidy in thousands of other incidents happening yet today. While I have no websites for you to peruse, I can tell you first-hand of most of these abuses.
You are right, DC. The conspiracy was to cover up their perfidy. But what chaps my hide is that the conspiracy was done BEFORE the fact - it was all part of the decision-making process. Though the hundreds of Mormons and GIs are not any deader because of this pre-planned deception, in my book it changes the charge from negligent manslaughter to murder.
(Just in case my tone is not adequate, I am seething.)
Mykl is right. Follow the money. But what is worse, it usually was done simply to advance someone's career.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited September 19, 1999).]
Rich,
Good point about the NRA membership or CCW cards, certainly those could be easily duplicated under a conspiracy!
But, I personally don't buy into the "conspiracy" when, in the event, the shooter takes his own life. How do you convince someone to do that? (Twilight Zone music playing in the background) ...maybe they didn't shoot themselves...
Really, the one event that raises the most alarms is the Jewish Center shooting, at least for me.
------------------
John/az
"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932
Good point about the NRA membership or CCW cards, certainly those could be easily duplicated under a conspiracy!
But, I personally don't buy into the "conspiracy" when, in the event, the shooter takes his own life. How do you convince someone to do that? (Twilight Zone music playing in the background) ...maybe they didn't shoot themselves...
Really, the one event that raises the most alarms is the Jewish Center shooting, at least for me.
------------------
John/az
"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932
Gentlemen... if you don't believe in the BIG Conspiracy you need to read THE SHADOWS OF POWER , by James Perloff telling of the Rockefeller conspiracy and his NWO....
They use their money and sphere of influence to buy the politicos and then to use them to use our money to do their bidding in the name of the UN ( their org) or the IMF or the WTO or NAFTA etc etc etc....
Like good cops you go about building a case piece by piece and the preponderance of evidence points clearly to a conspiracy of greed and power by a few in control of great wealth , which they use as power to sway they necessary number to do their bidding, when they may not even know what they are doing....
If you own the co A that owns the co B that owns the co C that owns the co D that publishes books or newspapers and the editor allows stories that are injurious to the wihes of the owner of Co A , how difficult do you think it is to get the editor fired and the next editor will think twice about printing anything against policy.
Or you are a wealthy man who puts money in trust with instructions to give grants to worthy writers of history or political studies, and you give instructions as to what types of things are worthy... well since you are the main contributor to such grants in the nation all the best and the brightest come to you for the grants , and you control whos gets the money and who gets published... all agree to publish through you as a condition of receiving the grant...
Then you have your other buddies of the billionare club who are of like mind, create their own foundations to cover some other areas of interest, and in nothing flat you have pretty good control of what goes on in the country... and by extention of those same policies from country to country you buy influence and then gain legislative and executive control of whole nations... then your little world org (UN) issues edicts as to how things will be done in the future.
But just like a grand corp you have a super R&D dept and a great Apprentice program too
and you have all these young people that come to the attention of your like minded minions who place them in the 'program' and watch them as they develope... those that make the cut become part of the management team , and the executives of the branch corps. Then when needed by the government to fill some worthy position they are suggested as a likely candidate by the donor of large campaign contributions, and voila ~! the puppet already trained in the right philosophies is now in a position in Gov to execute the wishes of the bosses when he may not even know he is doing it. And if he should stray, well he gets removed or some bad publicity comes out about him so that he is an embarrassment to the politico and is dismissed only to be replaced by a more 'in tune' candidate. Its been going on since the turn of the century !
You (they) are not stupid and you (they) as a great businessman know that it will take many years and that there will be setbacks , but the plan goes on unexorably onward toward the end goal of world domination by a ruling elite.... Read and you will see that it is indeed possible and most plausible as well.
------------------
What part of "INFRINGED" don't they understand?
They use their money and sphere of influence to buy the politicos and then to use them to use our money to do their bidding in the name of the UN ( their org) or the IMF or the WTO or NAFTA etc etc etc....
Like good cops you go about building a case piece by piece and the preponderance of evidence points clearly to a conspiracy of greed and power by a few in control of great wealth , which they use as power to sway they necessary number to do their bidding, when they may not even know what they are doing....
If you own the co A that owns the co B that owns the co C that owns the co D that publishes books or newspapers and the editor allows stories that are injurious to the wihes of the owner of Co A , how difficult do you think it is to get the editor fired and the next editor will think twice about printing anything against policy.
Or you are a wealthy man who puts money in trust with instructions to give grants to worthy writers of history or political studies, and you give instructions as to what types of things are worthy... well since you are the main contributor to such grants in the nation all the best and the brightest come to you for the grants , and you control whos gets the money and who gets published... all agree to publish through you as a condition of receiving the grant...
Then you have your other buddies of the billionare club who are of like mind, create their own foundations to cover some other areas of interest, and in nothing flat you have pretty good control of what goes on in the country... and by extention of those same policies from country to country you buy influence and then gain legislative and executive control of whole nations... then your little world org (UN) issues edicts as to how things will be done in the future.
But just like a grand corp you have a super R&D dept and a great Apprentice program too
and you have all these young people that come to the attention of your like minded minions who place them in the 'program' and watch them as they develope... those that make the cut become part of the management team , and the executives of the branch corps. Then when needed by the government to fill some worthy position they are suggested as a likely candidate by the donor of large campaign contributions, and voila ~! the puppet already trained in the right philosophies is now in a position in Gov to execute the wishes of the bosses when he may not even know he is doing it. And if he should stray, well he gets removed or some bad publicity comes out about him so that he is an embarrassment to the politico and is dismissed only to be replaced by a more 'in tune' candidate. Its been going on since the turn of the century !
You (they) are not stupid and you (they) as a great businessman know that it will take many years and that there will be setbacks , but the plan goes on unexorably onward toward the end goal of world domination by a ruling elite.... Read and you will see that it is indeed possible and most plausible as well.
------------------
What part of "INFRINGED" don't they understand?
Result: A disarmed populace delivered, on schedule, into the waiting hands of The Beast
(who is fearful of firearms).
Thanks, Rich. I needed a laugh this morning.
The truth, as I have often said (and you say, as well) is more insidious, but blatant: governments by nature assume increasing amounts of power. Other than that simple fact, everything else can be explained away by individual culpability and/or claimed "military expediency".
Short version: there is no major conspiracy, just a bunch of small ones.
Two short speculations:
The airliner could have been shot down accidentally? It's happened before. I think of the Israelis bombing a ship belonging to their staunchest ally, as well as the US blowing an Arab airliner out of the sky.
JFK's fatal head wound could have been caused by an AD from the AR in his car. The rest could just be cover-up to avoid embarrassing an individual or agency.
(who is fearful of firearms).
Thanks, Rich. I needed a laugh this morning.The truth, as I have often said (and you say, as well) is more insidious, but blatant: governments by nature assume increasing amounts of power. Other than that simple fact, everything else can be explained away by individual culpability and/or claimed "military expediency".
Short version: there is no major conspiracy, just a bunch of small ones.
Two short speculations:
The airliner could have been shot down accidentally? It's happened before. I think of the Israelis bombing a ship belonging to their staunchest ally, as well as the US blowing an Arab airliner out of the sky.
JFK's fatal head wound could have been caused by an AD from the AR in his car. The rest could just be cover-up to avoid embarrassing an individual or agency.
Bad decisions and a cover-up are for damned sure a sign that the people in charge need to be tighter-reined, but does that fall into the same category as a full-scale conspiracy? I really don't think so. Not quite. Dennis listed a neat grocery list of stuff the government needs to be hounded for, watched-over for, made responsible for. Each, however, was likely less than a "grand plan." In truth, the decisions made were likely made by one or two people with no oversight to speak of, allowed to run amuck. Then the others, the ones who should have watched over this one or two people to make sure such breeches didn't occur, found out about it post facto, they decided to cover-up.
Ockham's razor: entities should not be multiplied needlessly; the simplist of two or more competing theories is preferable, and an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what's already known. This was a good rule of logic in the 14th century (when they had some real conspiracies!), and it's good now.
I could frankly string you together a convincing theory that the reason toilet bowls are only 11" high (except for handicapped ones!) is due to a "joint" conspiracy between the National Orthopedic Society and the Mexican ceramics workers, in an effort to save on costs of porcelain and make more money for orthopedists who treat knee and hip problems! How? Why, it's all right there, if you'll just LOOK! Haven't you ever wondered why those daggum bowls are so low to the floor? Haven't you every wondered why you never see a kiln that makes these bowls in the U,S.? It's a conspirrrrrracy! You see, it all started when Mr. Taylor, of Taylor Johnson fixture fame, was shooting craps with Dr. B. Dover, famed orthopedist. . .
Never mind...!
[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited September 20, 1999).]
Ockham's razor: entities should not be multiplied needlessly; the simplist of two or more competing theories is preferable, and an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what's already known. This was a good rule of logic in the 14th century (when they had some real conspiracies!), and it's good now.
I could frankly string you together a convincing theory that the reason toilet bowls are only 11" high (except for handicapped ones!) is due to a "joint" conspiracy between the National Orthopedic Society and the Mexican ceramics workers, in an effort to save on costs of porcelain and make more money for orthopedists who treat knee and hip problems! How? Why, it's all right there, if you'll just LOOK! Haven't you ever wondered why those daggum bowls are so low to the floor? Haven't you every wondered why you never see a kiln that makes these bowls in the U,S.? It's a conspirrrrrracy! You see, it all started when Mr. Taylor, of Taylor Johnson fixture fame, was shooting craps with Dr. B. Dover, famed orthopedist. . .
Never mind...!
[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited September 20, 1999).]
Well, out of fairness to those of us who are altitudinally challenged, you extremely tall freaks will just have to squat a little bit.
(If it saves just one BVD....
)
And on that note, and in view of the length of this thread, can we please put conspiracies to rest? Please? I'm beggin' here!!!!
(The first person to start thread two better be an administrator or I'm gonna <<< deleted >>>!)
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited September 20, 1999).]
(If it saves just one BVD....
)And on that note, and in view of the length of this thread, can we please put conspiracies to rest? Please? I'm beggin' here!!!!
(The first person to start thread two better be an administrator or I'm gonna <<< deleted >>>!)
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited September 20, 1999).]
- Status