Considering First AR-15
- Thread starter Jaywalker
- Start date
Pre 9/11 Bushmasters retailed for around $ 800.The avaialability of Bushmasters is now next to none.With some dealers that do have them asking very high prices.Got my Bushmaster just in time.Go to AR15.com and look around many of your questions will be answered.Mine were. Good Luck BILLG
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
I think Jaywalker is referring to a mil-spec bolt and bolt carrier where the internal of the bolt-carrier that the bolt mates with IS chrome-lined. Bushmaster does sell these (I have one) and they are mil-spec for the M-16/AR-15.
Bushmaster (and the U.S. government) doesn't use fully chromed bolts and bolt carriers because chrome is much harder than steel and aluminum and the chrome accelerates wear in the upper receiver.
A reasonable price would be in the $500-$575 range for the upper and $750-850 range for the rifle around here. If you are going to order a pre-ban barrel and have it ground down to post ban compliance, you'll need to buy the parts separately as Bushmaster won't sell them as a complete rifle.
Why 1:9?
With the ammo available, a 1:7 offers you the choice of using all but the lightest bulleted stuff out there without a measurable accuracy penalty. Overstabilization is a myth but understabilization is measurable. 8 out of 10 Colt 1:7 barrels are capable of shooting under 1 MOA with good ammo in the 55-60 grain arena.
The A2 profile barrel is only slightly heavier than the A1 and are the most economical.
FYI, my FN 1:7 barrel prints under 1" at 100 yards with Winchester Q3131. Its under 2" at 300 yards with 80 Sierra target reloads.
With the ammo available, a 1:7 offers you the choice of using all but the lightest bulleted stuff out there without a measurable accuracy penalty. Overstabilization is a myth but understabilization is measurable. 8 out of 10 Colt 1:7 barrels are capable of shooting under 1 MOA with good ammo in the 55-60 grain arena.
The A2 profile barrel is only slightly heavier than the A1 and are the most economical.
FYI, my FN 1:7 barrel prints under 1" at 100 yards with Winchester Q3131. Its under 2" at 300 yards with 80 Sierra target reloads.
Bartholomew is correct. I was indeed "referring to a mil-spec bolt and bolt carrier where the internal of the bolt-carrier that the bolt mates with IS chrome-lined."
I called Gunsmoke and asked for a price for the BM as configured above with a 20 inch barrel. the price was $750 or $800 (I have it written down elsewhere), which included a BM pre-Ban, government profile, barrel legalized with a permanently attached brake, lug removal, etc. The only thing they couldn't do was include the A1 stock, of which they had none.
KeithJ, you made two statements, and I certainly agreed with one of them. It's clear that your 1-7 twist does not overstabilize your bullets. In a future post, I'll state my support for the theoretical concept of "overstabilization," and I hope you'll give me your thoughts at that point.
I'd say I'm within a week of purchase. I want to give my local gunshop an opportunity to get within $50 or so of best internet prices. Unfortunately for me, they've closed up for Thanksgiving week.
Jaywalker
I called Gunsmoke and asked for a price for the BM as configured above with a 20 inch barrel. the price was $750 or $800 (I have it written down elsewhere), which included a BM pre-Ban, government profile, barrel legalized with a permanently attached brake, lug removal, etc. The only thing they couldn't do was include the A1 stock, of which they had none.
KeithJ, you made two statements, and I certainly agreed with one of them. It's clear that your 1-7 twist does not overstabilize your bullets. In a future post, I'll state my support for the theoretical concept of "overstabilization," and I hope you'll give me your thoughts at that point.
I'd say I'm within a week of purchase. I want to give my local gunshop an opportunity to get within $50 or so of best internet prices. Unfortunately for me, they've closed up for Thanksgiving week.
Jaywalker
4150 steel is not "better" than 4140, merely marginally different. Don't let anyone sell you a bill of goods. 4140 works fine for barrels, and has for decades. I can't think of a reason why the increased carbon content (from .4 to .5 %) would matter. (not a gunsmith, but a knifemaker, and I understand the science of metallurgy a bit)
the tighter the twist, the more accurate (okay, that's a generalization--it depends in bullet mass, etc), but overstabilization leads to a loss of terminal ballistics. (won't rip the BG up as much).
looser twist rate lasts longer. I like 1:9.
Hard chrome carriers and bolts wear the upper slightly faster, but uppers can be replaced. They also seat better (slicker contact surfaces) and provide more consistent shooting. And they are MUCH easier to clean because carbon won't stick to them. USAF M-16s all had them as standard eqpt. I got spoiled. The NM carrier is hard chrome for a reason.
I shoot state combat match, and ranked in the top 30 in IL and IN.
the tighter the twist, the more accurate (okay, that's a generalization--it depends in bullet mass, etc), but overstabilization leads to a loss of terminal ballistics. (won't rip the BG up as much).
looser twist rate lasts longer. I like 1:9.
Hard chrome carriers and bolts wear the upper slightly faster, but uppers can be replaced. They also seat better (slicker contact surfaces) and provide more consistent shooting. And they are MUCH easier to clean because carbon won't stick to them. USAF M-16s all had them as standard eqpt. I got spoiled. The NM carrier is hard chrome for a reason.
I shoot state combat match, and ranked in the top 30 in IL and IN.
Absolom, I agree. At this point, I don't want any brake at all, let alone one that is permanently attached. I'll end up with an A2-profiled barrel, but I don't know how I'll get there. Kurt's Kustom tells me he fills in the threads from a current, pre-Ban barrel. Or he will turn a HBAR, removing a pound of barrel steel from a post-Ban.
madmike, that's a good point. Most makers use 4140 barrels, so they can't be awful. I assumed that 4150 was "better," without fully understanding the issue. I understand 4150 to be "harder," and thus to last longer, while maintaining the same original level of accuracy longer. Is that a fair statement, or am I off base? If it's true, it really is beter from my point of view - I like the idea of a 10,000 accurate round rifle. If it isn't, then I've learned something else from this thread.
Jaywalker
madmike, that's a good point. Most makers use 4140 barrels, so they can't be awful. I assumed that 4150 was "better," without fully understanding the issue. I understand 4150 to be "harder," and thus to last longer, while maintaining the same original level of accuracy longer. Is that a fair statement, or am I off base? If it's true, it really is beter from my point of view - I like the idea of a 10,000 accurate round rifle. If it isn't, then I've learned something else from this thread.
Jaywalker
Gewehrmutter
New member
Umm....... Just get a bushy- you will not regret it!
Absolom,
There's a couple of reasons I'm interested in the government-profiles for the barrels. The following are in no sense facts, but are feelings and beliefs. YMMV.
I've spent most of my life with scoped bolt actions. I'm sure their balanced feel has colored my feelings with regard to muzzle-heavy rifles.
Before deciding upon an AR-15, I considered the "old-fashioned" Springfield Armory M1A. It seems silly to me to have an eight and a half pound AR-15, when the M1A weighs only a little more. Also, I grew up in the 1960's reading about the six and a half pound "magic lightweight, plastic machine gun." Two extra pounds are definitely not in my expectations for an AR.
I don't believe makers install HBARs for my benefit. They are installed because it's cheaper, both in the avoidance of the extra machining necessary to get them to government profile, and also in the avoidance of the scrap/rework costs that come with any machining operation. Basically, if the customers will buy them half-finished, why go to the risk and expense of finishing them?
What would I give up by accepting HBAR? I don't know, but it concerns me a bit. I used to run an organization that accepted metallurgical products for the military. Not a week went by that a contractor didn't request a variance to MIL-SPEC, due to a non-availability of the defined alloy; besides, they said, they were using "equal or better" alloys. The problem then as it is now is that "stronger" is not always "better." Alloys have many properties and tensile strength is only one of them. In some cases engineers have designed a component that will fail before it breaks the next higher sub-assembly. The same argument held with chrome bolts - the system as a whole was weaker with that "stronger" bolt.
Mostly, I think, this is my desire for a government profile, rather than light weight, per se. It's a vote of confidence in the thousands of person years that have gone into the development and testing of the current configuration. It's also a recognition of the law of unintended consequences - I worry about what the HBAR may cost me, and I don't value what it provides. Quality is more than conformance to standards, but conformance is usually a good place to start. In the case of something with a forty-year development history, for me, it's a also good place to stop.
Forgive my preaching. People who know me well, know better than to ask my opinion without a cup of coffee and a while to listen.
Jaywalker
There's a couple of reasons I'm interested in the government-profiles for the barrels. The following are in no sense facts, but are feelings and beliefs. YMMV.
I've spent most of my life with scoped bolt actions. I'm sure their balanced feel has colored my feelings with regard to muzzle-heavy rifles.
Before deciding upon an AR-15, I considered the "old-fashioned" Springfield Armory M1A. It seems silly to me to have an eight and a half pound AR-15, when the M1A weighs only a little more. Also, I grew up in the 1960's reading about the six and a half pound "magic lightweight, plastic machine gun." Two extra pounds are definitely not in my expectations for an AR.
I don't believe makers install HBARs for my benefit. They are installed because it's cheaper, both in the avoidance of the extra machining necessary to get them to government profile, and also in the avoidance of the scrap/rework costs that come with any machining operation. Basically, if the customers will buy them half-finished, why go to the risk and expense of finishing them?
What would I give up by accepting HBAR? I don't know, but it concerns me a bit. I used to run an organization that accepted metallurgical products for the military. Not a week went by that a contractor didn't request a variance to MIL-SPEC, due to a non-availability of the defined alloy; besides, they said, they were using "equal or better" alloys. The problem then as it is now is that "stronger" is not always "better." Alloys have many properties and tensile strength is only one of them. In some cases engineers have designed a component that will fail before it breaks the next higher sub-assembly. The same argument held with chrome bolts - the system as a whole was weaker with that "stronger" bolt.
Mostly, I think, this is my desire for a government profile, rather than light weight, per se. It's a vote of confidence in the thousands of person years that have gone into the development and testing of the current configuration. It's also a recognition of the law of unintended consequences - I worry about what the HBAR may cost me, and I don't value what it provides. Quality is more than conformance to standards, but conformance is usually a good place to start. In the case of something with a forty-year development history, for me, it's a also good place to stop.
Forgive my preaching. People who know me well, know better than to ask my opinion without a cup of coffee and a while to listen.
Jaywalker
First AR
Jaywalker;
Check this review out before making up your mind. You can't beat this recommendation from an expert review organization.
http://www.cruffler.com/review-August-01.html
Jaywalker;
Check this review out before making up your mind. You can't beat this recommendation from an expert review organization.
http://www.cruffler.com/review-August-01.html
4150 steel will treat marginally harder. But hard is not necessarily better, because it comes at the expense of flexibility. Old damascus barrels (I cut damaged ones up for knives) won't harden worth a damn, but will bend a dozen times without cracking. It was the WELDS that caused weakness in them, not the metal per se.
Standard ordnance steels are 4140 and 416 stainless. 420, 430, 440 stainless are harder, as are 4150, 4160, 5160, and even plain old 1075. Hardness is not the only issue.
4140 is iron, with .38-.43 % carbon (hardenable matrix), .75-1. Manganese (deoxidizer), .025 max phosphorus (impurity for most purposes), .20-.35 silicon (toughens, improves tensile strength and hardenability), .8-1.1 chromium (increases depth of hardening and responsiveness to heat treatment), .15-.25 molybdenum (increases toughness and penetration of hardness in large billets, resists high temperature softening). Typical hardening in barrel sized billets is Rockwell C scale 44-50. Muzzle tensile strength should be ca 200,000 psi in section of 1/8" wall thickness.
4130 (for comparison) is same except .28-.33 carbon, .4-.6 manganese, 168,000 psi tensile strength as above.
4150 is identical to 4140, except .48-.53 carbon. Mechanical properties are listed as identical.
If it's comparable in cost, it might be worth getting. I wouldn't pay extra for it.
A harder barrel is likely to wear faster, is more likely to crack under stress, and will rust faster with higher carbon content. I don't know enough metallurgy to tell you what (if any) it helps.
My experience continues to be against Bushmaster for lousy quality control. Repeating what I've said elsewhere: a crooked flash suppressor (bored crooked), two uppers where the sights had to be maxed left to get bullets on paper (barrel/upper not aligned)(and someone else reported that also, so it's an ongoing problem for them), and someone else here just reported a bolt that wouldn't seat properly.
I HAVE a 1989 Olympic Arms and love it. I'm told they've gone down hill. I hear good things about DPMS, but haven't tried one yet. I have a Sendra and a PWA that work okay.
Standard ordnance steels are 4140 and 416 stainless. 420, 430, 440 stainless are harder, as are 4150, 4160, 5160, and even plain old 1075. Hardness is not the only issue.
4140 is iron, with .38-.43 % carbon (hardenable matrix), .75-1. Manganese (deoxidizer), .025 max phosphorus (impurity for most purposes), .20-.35 silicon (toughens, improves tensile strength and hardenability), .8-1.1 chromium (increases depth of hardening and responsiveness to heat treatment), .15-.25 molybdenum (increases toughness and penetration of hardness in large billets, resists high temperature softening). Typical hardening in barrel sized billets is Rockwell C scale 44-50. Muzzle tensile strength should be ca 200,000 psi in section of 1/8" wall thickness.
4130 (for comparison) is same except .28-.33 carbon, .4-.6 manganese, 168,000 psi tensile strength as above.
4150 is identical to 4140, except .48-.53 carbon. Mechanical properties are listed as identical.
If it's comparable in cost, it might be worth getting. I wouldn't pay extra for it.
A harder barrel is likely to wear faster, is more likely to crack under stress, and will rust faster with higher carbon content. I don't know enough metallurgy to tell you what (if any) it helps.
My experience continues to be against Bushmaster for lousy quality control. Repeating what I've said elsewhere: a crooked flash suppressor (bored crooked), two uppers where the sights had to be maxed left to get bullets on paper (barrel/upper not aligned)(and someone else reported that also, so it's an ongoing problem for them), and someone else here just reported a bolt that wouldn't seat properly.
I HAVE a 1989 Olympic Arms and love it. I'm told they've gone down hill. I hear good things about DPMS, but haven't tried one yet. I have a Sendra and a PWA that work okay.
Made the Call
Brooks, I did locate that Cruffler review and even phoned RRA on 16 Nov (based upon your previous comments) to ask them about their barrel material, chroming, chamber size, etc., to see if it matched with my criteria. Leaving aside for a moment whether I actually needed the criteria I specified, RRA didn't have them, so I ruled them out. I might not have, had I known of madmike's quality concerns re Bushmaster.
madmike, those are some interesting comments re Bushie quality. I was unaware of any of this - have you any idea of how often the term "Bushmaster" shows up in a search of TFL? I'll have to respectfully disagree about the impact of harder steel in barrel life, however. However less flexible it is, and therefore more subject to cracking, I believe a harder barrel will wear more slowly. Chrome (if applied in a Physical Vapor Deposition method) is less a rust preventative than a wear-resistance layer. (Rust can form beneath a PVD-applied chrome layer.) My preference for 4150 was the belief that it's closer to Mil-Spec. Is that not the case?
twoblink, I spent a month trying to decide whether to buy an M1A or an AR-15. Obviously, I came down on the side of the AR, but it was a tough call.
Speaking of calls, I ordered my Bushie A3 shortie carbine yesterday. I am now hyper-aware of quality issues.
Jaywalker
Brooks, I did locate that Cruffler review and even phoned RRA on 16 Nov (based upon your previous comments) to ask them about their barrel material, chroming, chamber size, etc., to see if it matched with my criteria. Leaving aside for a moment whether I actually needed the criteria I specified, RRA didn't have them, so I ruled them out. I might not have, had I known of madmike's quality concerns re Bushmaster.
madmike, those are some interesting comments re Bushie quality. I was unaware of any of this - have you any idea of how often the term "Bushmaster" shows up in a search of TFL? I'll have to respectfully disagree about the impact of harder steel in barrel life, however. However less flexible it is, and therefore more subject to cracking, I believe a harder barrel will wear more slowly. Chrome (if applied in a Physical Vapor Deposition method) is less a rust preventative than a wear-resistance layer. (Rust can form beneath a PVD-applied chrome layer.) My preference for 4150 was the belief that it's closer to Mil-Spec. Is that not the case?
twoblink, I spent a month trying to decide whether to buy an M1A or an AR-15. Obviously, I came down on the side of the AR, but it was a tough call.
Speaking of calls, I ordered my Bushie A3 shortie carbine yesterday. I am now hyper-aware of quality issues.
Jaywalker
Jaywalker,
Did you give up on the pursuit of a light profile barrel, or are you going to have this one turned down? I'm curious because I am looking to get an AR in the near future and my wish list is much like yours. The dilemma I have is 20" or carbine.
I had a HB carbine that I sold back in '94 (what an idiot) because I didn't like muzzle heavy handling in a carbine. I could have had a half pound of metal turned off under the hadguards and had the rifle I wanted, pre-damn-ban. Never sell guns, you'll almost always regret it.
As far as the windage problem, I have been told that BM was overtorqueing barrels for a while. Supposedly they have addressed the issue and will fix any that have the problem. The word on the street is that BM has the best CS. So, if it is wrong let them know and they will fix it.
Hope you like your new baby.
Did you give up on the pursuit of a light profile barrel, or are you going to have this one turned down? I'm curious because I am looking to get an AR in the near future and my wish list is much like yours. The dilemma I have is 20" or carbine.
I had a HB carbine that I sold back in '94 (what an idiot) because I didn't like muzzle heavy handling in a carbine. I could have had a half pound of metal turned off under the hadguards and had the rifle I wanted, pre-damn-ban. Never sell guns, you'll almost always regret it.
As far as the windage problem, I have been told that BM was overtorqueing barrels for a while. Supposedly they have addressed the issue and will fix any that have the problem. The word on the street is that BM has the best CS. So, if it is wrong let them know and they will fix it.
Hope you like your new baby.
Caffino, no, I haven't given up on the lighter barrel profile. Gunsmoke had a Pre-Ban BM 20" they would have "Post-Ban"ed for me, but I didn't want a permanent brake, which whould have covered the threads. That was the only lighter profile barrel I could find.
I thought I'd try shooting for a while with the HBAR, then have it turned down (probably by Kurt's for $60) and see if there are any differences that aren't accountable by my extra practicing. I don't expect to shoot one-inch groups, though others might be able to.
After that there's the optical sights to consider. I foresee a long process, and I'm looking foreard to learning about it.
Jaywalker
I thought I'd try shooting for a while with the HBAR, then have it turned down (probably by Kurt's for $60) and see if there are any differences that aren't accountable by my extra practicing. I don't expect to shoot one-inch groups, though others might be able to.
After that there's the optical sights to consider. I foresee a long process, and I'm looking foreard to learning about it.
Jaywalker
4140 is milspec, AFAIK. It was. I don't think they've changed. It's used to make .50 M-2s locally.
4150 might be slightly stronger for same hardness, but I wouldn't bet on it. And while a harder barrel will wear slower, it will also respond to bullet passage differently. Whether stiffer will be a help or hindrance would be beyond my knowledge, but I can find out for you, given time. I have a pet metallurgist I can ask.
I had the described sight problem with 2 Bushy uppers, and someone else described the same problem here as something they had encountered multiple times. So that's two independent reports of the same problem. Besides the crooked suppressor, I've seen other minor parts out of spec.
Now, if they deal well with repairs, etc, and do correct these problems when they find them, it still might be a good deal. I was a bit harsh on them a few days ago, perhaps. But you'll understand why 3 non-spec weapons, 2 with the identical problem, and reports of the same problem from other sources would make me leery of plunking down cash.
I've heard bad things about Hesse, and I do know that a dealer refused to let me look inside one preparatory to buying--so I didn't. "I don't want it scratched up," is a poor excuse to a veteran, especially when the dealer can open it up himself to allow a quick inspection. I don't buy it if I can't handle it.
The only real complaint I've heard about new Olys is the sprayed on catalyzed epoxy finish, which some call "paint." It IS milspec, however--we have a few M-16s with that finish in the armory. Olys are accurate, reliable, and I've had one for 12 years.
DPMS looks to be good, although a few of their cheaper guns were assembled from "spare parts." Their standard rifles are tight, good-looking, and I expect to fire one shortly.
4150 might be slightly stronger for same hardness, but I wouldn't bet on it. And while a harder barrel will wear slower, it will also respond to bullet passage differently. Whether stiffer will be a help or hindrance would be beyond my knowledge, but I can find out for you, given time. I have a pet metallurgist I can ask.
I had the described sight problem with 2 Bushy uppers, and someone else described the same problem here as something they had encountered multiple times. So that's two independent reports of the same problem. Besides the crooked suppressor, I've seen other minor parts out of spec.
Now, if they deal well with repairs, etc, and do correct these problems when they find them, it still might be a good deal. I was a bit harsh on them a few days ago, perhaps. But you'll understand why 3 non-spec weapons, 2 with the identical problem, and reports of the same problem from other sources would make me leery of plunking down cash.
I've heard bad things about Hesse, and I do know that a dealer refused to let me look inside one preparatory to buying--so I didn't. "I don't want it scratched up," is a poor excuse to a veteran, especially when the dealer can open it up himself to allow a quick inspection. I don't buy it if I can't handle it.
The only real complaint I've heard about new Olys is the sprayed on catalyzed epoxy finish, which some call "paint." It IS milspec, however--we have a few M-16s with that finish in the armory. Olys are accurate, reliable, and I've had one for 12 years.
DPMS looks to be good, although a few of their cheaper guns were assembled from "spare parts." Their standard rifles are tight, good-looking, and I expect to fire one shortly.
A Half Step
Absolom,
I hope you will take this in the spirit in which I ask it, that of friendly advice. I would appreciate it if you would back off a half step. There are some comments that, even when accompanied by a smiley, are too much.
I am not an "expert," and have not laid claim to being one, so your last post is a little out of line.
I know I don't need or want your advice re "psychotherapy," so that comment, bypassed at the time, is a lot out of line.
I know I will be able to learn more if we all avoid mischaracterizations or personal comments.
Thanks,
Jaywalker
Absolom,
I hope you will take this in the spirit in which I ask it, that of friendly advice. I would appreciate it if you would back off a half step. There are some comments that, even when accompanied by a smiley, are too much.
I am not an "expert," and have not laid claim to being one, so your last post is a little out of line.
I know I don't need or want your advice re "psychotherapy," so that comment, bypassed at the time, is a lot out of line.
I know I will be able to learn more if we all avoid mischaracterizations or personal comments.
Thanks,
Jaywalker
I think we'd all learn the MOST if we didn't take ourselves too seriously.
Some comments may be slightly out of line, but their validity comes less and less in question
with each riposte of indignation. Self-righteousness, or the appearence thereof, is a sure way to buy yourself
censure.
Just a thought (Nomex on
).
Now my questions:
Can I get a Rock River AR-15NM with some custom features from the factory?
I'd like to skip the SS NM barrel and get a chrome lined Carbon Steel one instead.
Also, do I order from them and designate an FFL for shipping, or order through a dealer?
One more: Anybody make a "birdcage" GI appearing muzzlebrake that'll go on post-Klinton
black rifles (nevermind that'll it'll hurt absolute accuracy)?
Some comments may be slightly out of line, but their validity comes less and less in question
with each riposte of indignation. Self-righteousness, or the appearence thereof, is a sure way to buy yourself
censure.
Just a thought (Nomex on
).Now my questions:
Can I get a Rock River AR-15NM with some custom features from the factory?
I'd like to skip the SS NM barrel and get a chrome lined Carbon Steel one instead.
Also, do I order from them and designate an FFL for shipping, or order through a dealer?
One more: Anybody make a "birdcage" GI appearing muzzlebrake that'll go on post-Klinton
black rifles (nevermind that'll it'll hurt absolute accuracy)?
I think we'd all learn the MOST if we didn't take ourselves too seriously.
Some comments may be slightly out of line, but their validity comes less and less in question
with each riposte of indignation. Self-righteousness, or the appearence thereof, is a sure way to buy yourself
censure.
Just a thought (Nomex on ).
Now my questions:
Can I get a Rock River AR-15NM with some custom features from the factory?
I'd like to skip the SS NM barrel and get a chrome lined Carbon Steel one instead.
Also, do I order from them and designate an FFL for shipping, or order through a dealer?
Some comments may be slightly out of line, but their validity comes less and less in question
with each riposte of indignation. Self-righteousness, or the appearence thereof, is a sure way to buy yourself
censure.
Just a thought (Nomex on
).Now my questions:
Can I get a Rock River AR-15NM with some custom features from the factory?
I'd like to skip the SS NM barrel and get a chrome lined Carbon Steel one instead.
Also, do I order from them and designate an FFL for shipping, or order through a dealer?