Concealed (?)

J

James K

Member In Memoriam
It seems to me that whether you are legal or not, or even a LEO, the idea of a concealed weapon is concealment. True, carry should be in such a way that drawing the gun is relatively easy, but calling attention to it rather defeats the idea of a concealed weapon.

Some folks talk about carry in bulky holsters and carrying such guns as a 6" Model 629 or a Desert Eagle. I don't say such guns can't be concealed, but it is not easy.

Legality is not the point. If you are shopping at the local super market and some one sees your gun and runs away screaming, shouting for the police to come and kill the bad man, you are not in the best possible position, even if you are a LEO.

It may make some folks feel more macho to carry a big gun and possibly even to tell the police to go to hell, it is your right to carry (as one fellow said he would), but you could get in very bad, but brief, trouble with that attitude.

IMHO, concealed weapons should be concealed, and most CCW states require that they be concealed. If this means that carrying a .500 Eagle or a .475 revolver is out, so be it. Learn to live with something smaller or create a situation that will get the CCW law revoked for everyone.

Jim
 
As perviously stated in another post here, one which I suspect motivated this thread, I stated that I carried a 6" "N" frame S&W for over twenty years and continue to do so to this day. In that time I have never been "discovered". Including a period during which I was working under cover narcotics and being watched closely by officers who did not know me as a police officer. I have always been a firm believer that one shoud carry/shoot the lagrest caliber they can use proficently. A NAA mini revolver chamered in .22 short cetainly have their place, however I know no one that would willingly choose one in a fight given the chance to have something larger and more potent at their disposal. It is possible and more common than many may believe for larger frame/caliber guns to carried concealed and remain concealed.
Carrying a larger gun has nothing to do with attempting to be "macho" or impressing someone. It is simply a matter of carrying what that individual feels the most confident with and can handle well.
If the person, however lacks the physical stature, cofidence or ability to properly conceal, handle or shoot a larger caliber/frame gun then by all means I would recommend that they use something smaller and more suited to them.
It would be foolish to carry anything less.
 
So you're saying that if I'm capable of carrying an concealing a .50AE Desert Eagle in a vertical shoulder holster underneath my Brooks Brother's suit jacket without problems, I shouldn't? Because it is possibly jeapordizing YOUR rights? Uh?

Who are you to tell me what I should and shouldn't carry? Just because ONE person
may have difficulty concealing a big pistol doesn't mean someone ELSE will. People come in all shapes and sizes.

Most state laws pertaining to CCW say that you can carry any handgun that you legally own. Be it a tiny .22short NAA revolver or a Freedom Arms .475 Linebaugh with a 6inch barrel.

Thats like saying that even though I can legally drive a Dodge Viper, I shouldn't
because its too much car for a lowly citizen such as myself. And if I get caught speeding, it may jeapordize your rights to drive your Honda Civic. Horse exhaust....

As long as someone uses good judgement and carries their firearm of choice in an appropriate holster, who cares what they carry?

Its not my right to tell them that they're carrying way too much gun. It is THEIR choice. Its THEIR life they're trying to protect.



[This message has been edited by dvc (edited February 21, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Keenan:
Learn to live with something smaller or create a situation that will get the CCW law revoked for everyone.

Jim[/B][/quote]

Jim,

I think that I understand where you are comming from. However, I must respectfully disagree w/your last statement. The philosophy that the means of self defense comes as a priviledge granted as a favor from our public servants is common among many, even some of the most popular Gun lobyist associations. This is why they have continued over the generations to concede and even agree to ever more gun restriction laws. The CCW permission slip is simply a law which provides certain people w/a favor granted by public servants. In the present climate and cultural norms of today it even seems resonable. However, what seems resonable today, w/likely turn into a list of gun owners that need to be stripped of their means (a favor and priviledge) to defend their families from harm. I've talked, to FFL holders, (again a "reasonable" priviledge), that believe that the USA is immune from tyrany and gun confiscation. They may be right. Maybe America is different from other nations throughout history. Maybe history will not repeat itself.

I said all that to say this. I believe that the fact that we must, by law, seek approval to carry concealed is an outrage. That we should have to carry a very small and discreet weapon because someone who knows better than you and me says that we must. I personally think that the woman who "sees your gun and runs away screaming, shouting for the police to come and kill the bad man" has the problem. A big emmotional and mental problem. I am sick of having to jeapordize my family's safety for the sake of some hysterical, irrational, judgemental wentch who's mind is in agreement with the brain-dead entertainment and news media. Unfortuneately, I realize that the world is full of it, I mean hysterical people like that. I know that we might get into trouble w/the law because someone spots an individual who is not willing to give their family's life and safety over to public consensis.

Nevertheless, I do not believe that the means to carry, (anything we wish to carry), is a favor from ol Uncle Sam and state. I believe that it is a right and a responsibility granted by God and recognized by the Second Article of the Constitution of the US. That is why I spend time doing what I legaly can to educate and help folks like us to see WHY we need to eliminate ALL the firearm laws that we posibly can. That means working on getting the states to adopt VT carry legislation instead of this CCW stuff.

I'll agree with you if what you mean is that prudence in concealed carry is better than going through legal hassels if that is what you are getting at. Would you consider though that CCW and registration is one step away from confiscation and tyrany? Would you agree that it would be in our best interests to try to change the carry laws to VT style: (meaning NO permits needed to carry whatever you want)?

I think that this is a solution to the problem of needing to compromise for the sake of irrational hysterical individuals. If it is a favor granted by our public servants, we are truly lucky. If it is a right vested to every individual by their Creator, then we have a little ways yet to go.

robert jpfo.org

What did He say?:

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
We may theorize about what can be concealed and how people may react if they see something.

Can we document cases where people have been "made"? Who here has had a sheeple discover the concealed piece and react?

I've only been "made" once, and that was at a shooting class by a cop who wanted to show off by "making" someone. Only twice have I been queried about the odd little snapping loop on my belt (support point for a Rosen Workman holster), and that was by two close people who have known me for over 10 years (my reaction led them to figure out the rest). I've "made" three other people, when I was looking for CCW folks, and those were the exception instead of the rule (one was a CEO of a big "no guns here" company who was rumored to carry; that one was really obvious to the trained observer).

I've been concluding that extremely few people will figure such things out even if it's almost waved under their noses. People don't expect to see a gun, so they won't unless it's plainly obvious.

I bring this up to gather data on the likelyhood of Jim's concern actually happening. Obviously, if someone sees it and goes ballistic in a populated public place, that's not particularly good for the cause. But how big of a concern is it really? Depending on the factual data, I may be in more danger of dying in a car crash...but that won't stop me from driving to work tomorrow (and I'm more concerned about death than losing my CCW). I'm becoming surprised at how large a gun _can_ be concealed adequately, and how few people notice even fairly obvious things.
 
I wasn't made, but a fellow officer with me was. The police were called. They, our department by the way, responded appropriately to a man with a gun call. To make a long story short, there was a lot of relief, embarrasment, and discipline involved. This happened in a restaurant which we frequented often while both in and out of uniform. The guy with the cell phone was not aware of that, though. People have lost their CCWs because the wind blows at the worst time.

Another instance. I live in Colorado. Two weeks after Columbine I was killing time in a Walmart while my wife was shopping. I naturally found myself at the magazine rack parousing the latest gun rags. A woman comes over, notices what I am reading, and scolds me for poisoning my mind. "What would my parents think?" she asks. (I'm 28) She then attempts to take the magazine away from me! I was at a loss for words at this point... I firmly asked her to let go of the magazine, and to leave me alone. She starts making a minor scene. She is going on and on about America's misspent youth. (Again, I'm 28 and a cop at this time) Finally her husband comes over demanding to know what is going on. She tells him and to his credit he apologized and tried to get her away as quickly as possible. As he pulls on her one arm, she reaches forward and pats down my left side, commenting "well I'll at least check!" It is a damn good thing she couldn't get to my right side, which I had bladed from her. She probably would have had a heart attack! Even with a display of my badge had she felt my gun, it would not have surprized me if someone had called the police. America is a prolific breeding ground for sheeple...

Erik
 
Erik,

"You young whipper snapper. :mad: What would your mother think! And THAT goes for your little DOG TOO!" Another one of those hysterical, irrational, judgemental, (and a few more adjectives), women again (wentch isn't a bad word, but since it sounds like one, I won't use it). ;)

Ctdonath,

Good point. The only ones that I have concern over being made by are peace officers. Many are trained to spot these things and many are "observant" as that dog in the Peanuts commic strip. I guess that's one of the skills of their job, but I feel sorry for the wives who try to hide Birthday presents from them. Good grief, Charlie Brown :rolleyes: . I think that you are right about folks in general. I often tuck a big 8AA Energizer Double Barrel flashlight down my waistband in the kidney possition. Its a good test to see if I'll be "made" with IT, before I make a full length 1911 w/full compensator for concealed carry. I'm not a big guy, mind you, but I find that the length is less of an issue than grip ht. With the success that I've had w/the light, I don't think that the short grip-long Equalizer w/be a problem concealing. Like Jim alluded to, I think that holster choice w/be the key. A bulky one w/cause it to stick out like W.C. Field's nose.

robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
I carry a gun that I can CONCEAL, not because I give a crap what anybody thinks, but because I don't want to taken out first or singled out by miscreant should I find myself in a situation. I want the element of surprise on MY side.

Those that carry 6" N frames probably don't carry as often or as long at a time as I do or they are quite uncomfortable. It's rather difficult to effectively conceal a 6" revolver when wearing a T-shirt and jeans. A 2" .38 or G27 is considerably easier to make disappear when dressed lightly. I guess if you wear a light jacket or something from the time you get up until the time you go to bed, it can be done. Still sounds uncomfortable to me though

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Desertscout
desertscout@hotmail.com

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."
--George Washington
 
I been carrying full size 1911`s for years and have never been seen.The size is not a issue its what is comfortable and how you wear it.Course with me i got a holster collection that would make a gunstore proud , as i have purchased more than my share over the years.The biggest differance for me was getting used to wearing my clothes a little baggier than normal ,and leaving the shirts untucked most of the time.


Killer45auto
 
The fellow in the "run screaming" incident was a cop (now retired), as legal as you can get, but still a big problem (actually a small panic) was created. Had he been a CCW licensee and not a cop, he would have been arrested for disturbing the peace. Nor was the gun big - it was a Colt dick special, almost the definition of small handgun. But he forgot and let his coat open up.

My concern was that if too many people run around bulging in unlikely places and flapping their coats open so everyone knows they have a bigger gun that the other guy, we are likely to lose CCW even in the states where we got it.

DVC, I am not going to try to tell you anything. If you want to have your gun sticking out so everyone will know you are carrying, go ahead. But don't be surprised if you find yourself explaining all that legal business to some unamused cops.

If a person doesn't know the meaning of discretion, a whopping fine for disturbing the peace and loss of his CCW might teach him.

Jim
 
Seems to me that Jim's initial post merely called for some common sense and rational planning about a person ensuring that his "concealed carry" was indeed concealed.

I read it as meaning that if you can carry a large gun and not be made, fine; but if you can't, don't.

Part of my nightclub-manager job was to Emcee the musical acts we booked. I was regularly onstage for introductions, carrying my lightweight Commander--and nobody ever knew. I generally wore a square-tailed sport shirt of relatively thick material. Loose-fitting shirt, not tucked in; snug jeans with 2" pistol belt and no holster needed for a right-kidney location...Never a problem.

Seems to me that if you just do a little thinking along the lines of, "So, what Bad Thing might I have to deal with?" and include public attitudes and the law in your thinking, you're better off. There are many more problems out there than the rather rare Bad Guy, right?

:), Art
 
....if you can carry a large gun and not be made, fine; but if you can't, don't.

Mr. Art Eatman advise is applicable to any one. If we could carry and cover it well of not being notice by the LE's and nervous citizen is fine. Like others said too, we have different personalities thus what might be a good concealable gun to me can't be for other and vice versa.

I am very much surprise in your locality that the Cops or LE's and other allergic citizens to guns are very much conscious on CCW. Well, your laws in US has the word "Concealed" so you must really abide to it. We in the Philippines, as it is just called Permit to Carry. It does not define the word Concealed. So, if my pistol is a little bit bulging but not exposed, and not carried on restricted areas it is not a problem at all.

It has been discussed in other threads about our reactions if being checked. But in P.I. a Cop can check the suspected guy carrying a weapon but once it is legal and the cop has no other intention it is nothing.

One time, my kid and me went to a pawnshop to redeem some items, a 6 footer cop is gazing at my waist, for the butt of the DP51 is a little bit big. But he did not ask nor question me at all. He knows I am carrying, but I have no intention that my pistol will be noticed.

I agree with Jim that having a small arm is very much concealable compared to bigger one, and just to avoid being noticed and caused more problems to the person carrying or the the person who notice it. But again, it is up to us how we are accustomed to of carry pistol. That is why I prefer my M1991 Colt for carry even longer but more flat then my DP51.

But then, now in my Country, a new restrictions is passed that there will be no more issuance of Permit to Carry Outside Residence to a civilian not unless there is an established death threat to his life. So, our room of having permit to carry is about to be removed soon completely and the criminals will be free to carry their guns. It is a Renaissance of the colonial period forbiding the poor civilians to keep arms in their house or carry outside. So that there is full control by the Militaristic attitude of the Gov't.
 
Stdalire,
"Established death threat?!" Sounds like people need to discretely shoot up part of their house, file a report, and insist that a voice told them they were next! Sounds a lot like "qualifying" your need in some parts of the US. :(

Erik
 
I think that Jim has brought up a very good point. One that evryone who carries a gun should consider.

Being an LEO I don't have to worry about my CCL being revoked if I'm "made". That being said, in the years that I've been an LEO I've never been "made" by anyone. A concealed weapon should be exactly that, concealed. That doesn't mean carrying that big Beretta under a t-shirt. That means carry it so that no one knows you've got it. In short, it's no ones business.

The key factors in concealment are appropriate dress (reference the aforementioned t-shirt), appropriate weapon selection and just as importantly, appropriate holster selection. Carry the biggest gun that you can effectively shoot and conceal. IMHO too much is made of comfort factor. Many of my co-workers carry .22. .25 cal type weapons off duty. Their excuse is comfort. My reply is "suck it up". No my 1911 isn't as comfortable as that sissy pistol. However, it'll be a lot more "comforting" if I have to pull it out. Another big factor is to not act like you're carrying. I've seen people that I knew were carrying just by that tough guy strut that they had. If you've complied with the factors listed above chances are no one will know. Most people aren't trained observers and they simply aren't, observant that is.

One of my newer co-workers (read that as rookie) seemed to think that slipping his S&W model 60 into his waistband qualified as concealment. I had told him numerous times that he needed to get a good holster and conceal that thing. His reply was always "I can't afford it"(but he could afford to throw down $1100 on a new bird gun, get the picture?). He even had the local PD called on him (we're troopers)while in the local Wal-Mart.

None of this seemed to phase him. That "I'm a cop I can do whatever" attitude *really* chaps my ass. I had finally exhausted my patients when I ran into him in the grocery store one evening. He hadn't seen me but I'd seen him, complete with the Mexican carry Smith. I approached him from behind and proceeded to throw him on the floor and snatch his weapon away. I then stated "anyone else could have done that too". I then gave him his gun back and left. He now carries it concealed.
 
Stdalire,

Since the Spanish occupation and citizen disarmament of the Philippines, I thought that maybe there is a skill and art to concealment that developed over the generations. For instance, it seems that a short sword or machete would be more difficult to conceal than most hand guns. Since some of the greatest combat (martial arts) using machetese has come out of the Philippines and used in the gvt schools, I was wondering if there are any secrets that you've learned for deep concealment of large weapons.

I've found that if you can keep the butt of a handgun from bulging, you can carry about any length handgun that you want very discreetly. For deep concealment, the cross draw under the shirt works best for many. In the right holster, it pulls the butt tight against the weak side. You must reach across the body throught the shirt in order to grasp it.

I've also been able to carry a large Double Barrel flashlight (probably close to 20") in my waist band. The combination of smooth narrow grip and large lens assembly keeps it in place w/out a holster. It sometimes must be shifted in order to sit down and drive comfortably, but it pretty comfortable considering. I'd like to be able to carry an expandable batton comfortably in a different manner in warm weather clother.

robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
I've been thinking about this a lot as i intend to get my ccw. I live in Denver where nobody (yeah right) carries. After Columbine more people are nervous about people with guns.. So I'm leaning more towards keep it concealed as opposed to "if they see it i'm ok i have a permit". Kinda makes you want a shiny deputy's badge and handcuffs or something though when you sit down for lunch at perkins on a hot day though doesn't it??

I'm not a big guy or a small guy.. and honestly.. I need instruction on how to carry a gun properly for concealment.. because even a 380 if its not done right is easy to print.

Dr.Rob
 
A lot of good viewpoints. With your kind permission, one more. I know a man who wears a gun every day of his life. It is a Colt 1903 Pocket Model .32, carried in an inside holster. He does not have a permit. He has never been "made". Never searched. Never even looked at by anyone. He looks a bit like "Mr. Rogers" except maybe wimpier.

Would he use the gun? He killed two men with two shots while an armored car guard and killed another man with one shot while a police officer. I think he would use the gun.

There are some people who would not weep if he were not around any more. He cannot get a permit, so he doesn't worry about it. But he knows the meaning of discretion.

Jim
 
Dr. Rob,
I know of cops that have been hassled in Denver over their CCWs. It is not always a case of "if they see it I'm OK I have a permit." Discretion and complete concealment are the rules, not the exception in Colorado. Politics has a lot to do with this.

Erik
 
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