Concealed Carry in Church: Do / Did / Will you?

POLL: Concealed Carry in Church: Do / Did / Will you?

  • Total voters
    73
  • Poll closed .
OK, how about this? Where in the church do you normally sit? IF by the entry door, you are likely to be the first one engaged by an incoming shooter. Something to think about.
 
Where in the church do you normally sit? IF by the entry door, you are likely to be the first one engaged by an incoming shooter. Something to think about.
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That is something worth thinking about. In many churches, the congregation has their back to most or all of the entrances. As churches develop their response plans, they need to figure out ways to monitor the entrances and get as much warning as they can. Ideally, a way of warning key personnel and securing doors before the approach of a threat could stop a threat before gunfire even occurs. Things would have to work perfectly for that to happen, of course, and things seldom work perfectly. Having good observers at good vantage points can buy crucial seconds in the response, though.
 
As a concealed carry minister I carry in church whether I am leading the congregation or part of it. I don't even bother asking anymore. I will admit that most of the ministers and preachers I know don't carry but most of them feel safer knowing that I do. They have a responsibility to the people in church to try to assure that they get to go home to their families.
 
For those looking for reference material:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/forming-a-church-safety-team
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/your-tactical-training-scenario-violence-at-church
https://intruderresponse.com/courses/church-security-training-courses/

Midwest Training Resources that seem decent and not tacticool

Indiana - http://www.brightfirearmstraining.com/
Ohio - https://tdiohio.com/home_page/ - near Indiana
Indiana - http://sandburrgunranch.com/ Has hosted experts to dispel mythology
Indiana - http://www.rileycc.com/
Ohio: https://www.violenceofmind.com/firearms-training/
Indiana - http://mindsetlab.com/main/

Thus, there seems to be quite a lot of quality info and training out there that should be looked into for those who are serious. One needs to be more than an autodidact.
 
JohnKSA, thanks for the link. I had to download the video to be able to see it, but that's definitely along the lines of what I have in mind, but a little more involved. I've been working on fleshing out this idea, and this is what I've come up with thus far.

LE's role would be to give a presentation similar to the one you provided me the link to. Having the local chief of police or county sheriff involved in the process would add credibility. I found out that the state police here in IN, have started giving presentations like the one TT gives, so maybe they could do it.

A gun shop owner could follow the officer's presentation with a talk about some of the different choices available for defensive shooting, their strengths, their differences, the importance of choosing a gun that fits well in the hand and the user is comfortable with.

A representative from a gun range could explain how the range is laid out, what kinds of targets to choose, safety measures, what classes they offer, etc.

An instructor who specializes in more comprehensive training could explain the different types of training he offers, how his classes are structured, etc.

Of course, I need to develop my idea more before making any phone calls, but at least I have a rough outline of where my head is on getting this organized. If I can get a few of the local pastors involved, maybe one of them could offer space to hold such a meeting. Maybe I could get the local paper to do a story on it to spread the word.

As for paying for it, I'm thinking that LE wouldn't charge for giving this kind of presentation. As the officer in the TT video pointed out, they've realized that, in this age of more and more active shooters, LE has realized that imparting some of the principles that go into their own active shooter training to the general public is a good idea.

The gun shop owners, range owners, and instructors would hopefully see how participating in this kind of presentation could easily result in more business for them. Let's say two or three pastors decided to organize a few of their members as security teams for their churches. That could mean sales for the gun shops, memberships at ranges, and instructors getting paid to do what they do.
 
Glenn, thanks for the links. I will check them all out. And just so I don't get your cantankerous side flared up again, I promise not to use tacticool any more. :)
 
Let's say two or three pastors decided to organize a few of their members as security teams for their churches.
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Be sure to check the laws. For example, up until recently, it was illegal in TX to have armed church security teams unless the armed members were certified as security guards under TX law.
 
I'm not a church going man any more, but I think every congregation should have a contingent of armed worshippers.

1 Timothy 5:8
 
I carried in church for 15 years when I lived in CA and no one knew... I was an usher and sat at the back.

Now that I'm in Texas the church sanctuary is attached to the church offices and a licensed daycare facility and from my research that is a no carry zone? My church is not posted.

Is a licensed daycare the same as a school? It looks that way to me.

§46.035, Texas Penal Code prohibits carrying of handguns and other weapons:

On the premises of a business that derives 51% or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption; such premises are required to post notices under Texas GC §411.204
On the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting or interscholastic event is taking place
On the premises of a correctional facility
On the premises of a hospital or nursing home if effective notice of prohibition is given per Penal Code Chapter 30 (unless the licensee has written authorization); such premises also are required to post notices under Texas GC §411.204
In an amusement park (if effective notice of prohibition is given per Penal Code Chapter 30)
On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other place of worship (if effective notice of prohibition is given per Penal Code Chapter 30)
At any meeting of a governmental entity (if the meeting is subject to the Texas Open Meetings Act per Government Code Chapter 551, and effective notice of prohibition is given per Penal Code Chapter 30)
On the premises of State Hospitals (in accordance to Health and Safety Code, Chapter 552, and effective notice of prohibition is given per Penal Code Chapter 30)
In addition, §46.03, Texas Penal Code specifically prohibits handguns in the following locations:

On the physical premises of a school, grounds or buildings on which an activity sponsored by a school is being conducted, or in a school transportation vehicle;
On the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or while early voting is in progress;
On the premises of any government court or court offices (unless the licensee has written authorization from the court);
On the premises of a racetrack;
In or into a secured area of an airport; or
Within 1,000 feet of premises designated as a place of execution on the day a sentence of death is set to be imposed.

https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/LTC/faqs/index.htm

Texas Penal Code - PENAL § 30.05. Criminal Trespass
<Text of (f) effective until January 1, 2016>
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden;  and

(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,  [FN1] to carry a concealed handgun.

<Text of (f) effective January 1, 2016>
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden;  and

(2) the person was carrying:

(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,  [FN1] to carry a handgun;  and

(B) a handgun:

(i) in a concealed manner;  or

(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster.
http://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-30-05.html
 
A couple friends have indicated a new interest in being legally armed (Texas LTC) in order to be a "good guy with a gun". Other friends have for a long time been carrying everywhere they go. Many friends expect the vast majority of Texans outside the 4 large cities carry. Being a "good guy with a gun" includes serious responsibility, something many Texans do not shy away from. Cowards that perpetrate mass killings count on gatherings of defenseless victims. It makes no difference if the location is gun free by law or no "good guys with a gun" are present. Should be a wake up call when average citizens young and old think it is time to be armed. Reality is finally taking hold that law enforcement personnel 9 times out of 10 can only deal with the aftermath of a crime. Protecting yourself and family is a 24/7 personal responsibility.
 
Many friends expect the vast majority of Texans outside the 4 large cities carry.
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What's interesting is that I took a look at TX license applications and it seems that the more rural areas are under-represented.

For example, the county that contains Sutherland Springs has an application rate something like 8 times lower than the statewide average, as I recall. It seems that the more populated areas have a higher density of people with handgun licenses.

My suspicion is that people tend to think of the rural areas as being safer and therefore don't see the need to carry a handgun.
 
The data on what counties have the highest LTC rates has been published by DPS.
I believe suburban counties were generally the highest.
And maybe the frontier counties were the next largest groups.
 
My suspicion is that people tend to think of the rural areas as being safer and therefore don't see the need to carry a handgun.
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I was talking to a person who said she lived in Sutherland Springs. She heard the shots and thought they were just target practice (that's what she said). Didn't know what happened until she saw it on Facebook.

She said she moved there to be in the country and safe. Reality is that the vast majority of eligible folks don't have LTCs and the vast majority those those don't carry much. Also, the vast majority of those who carry don't train beyond a box at the square range once or twice a year.

Outside of my competitor friends and committed training friends, my friends with LTCs fall into the box a year paradigm. The typical gun is usually a LCP or Taurus 85. A Shield is a quantum step up.

Some churches are stepping up with the dedicated members of the congregation.
 
I have cc'd in church for years. I am also, for the last 3 years a member of our "Security Team". It consists mostly of one person every Sunday that says he/she is security and is stationed at the entry door. It seems I am the only one that takes this position seriously. Most , esp the women, do not even remain at station. I don't think anyone besides myself carry anything. I always cc and most times also have a non-lethal with me. When I'm not "on duty" I sit close to the back of the room where the entrance to the service is located and off to the side. I don't face front but more of an angle where I can see who is entering as well as the front. I would be interested in communicating with any here that may have suggestions or helping advice.
 
TXAZ said:
CLARIFICATION: If you attend worship services...



A lot of friends in Texas are reconsidering Concealed carry in their place of worship here in Texas after the tragedy in South Texas.



What's the sentiment across the country?



One recent pronouncement from the United Methodist Church was to restrict Open carry but not address (tacitly not restrict) Concealed carry.



What say you for you legal CHL /LTC / CWP holders?
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When on stage I pocket carry my LCP and when I’m not serving or when I’m doing sound I CC a G23.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Compare LTC issued as percentage of population between large population counties and small population counties. The small population counties beat large population counties. For example, Harris County 0.6% vs Childress County 1.2% for 2015. Of course large population centers will reflect larger gross number of LTCs issued.

Also, LTC numbers are not the single indicator. You see many more long guns readily accessible in rural smaller population counties.
 
I think at least one person should carry at a church. I usually do not attend church, but if I did, I might consider depending on the congregations thought on the subject. I don't open carry cause I don't want anyone, criminal or law abiding to see or know what I have. It would be to easy for someone who wants to do harm to disable you first if they know you are armed. Carrying open is not always a deterrent to someone wanting to do something bad. Just puts you at a disadvantage, hence, that is why I don't want anyone to know what I have on me. Just food for thought.
 
I carry everywhere! {Except where metal detectors are present}
It's shame people have to carry in church. Nothing is off limits anymore. If the pope invited me to lunch, I'd still carry.
 
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