Competitive shooting a plus in defense.
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Q: Who are the top competitors in 2015 in 3Gun and PRS matches, the two sports at the top of the food chain in terms of competition?
A; Over half are LE and Mil with excellent service records. Talk to them (i have, at length) about the benefits and or liabilities of shooting high level competition.
Q: Why do numerous LE and mil units seek out high level civilian competitors as contractors to get training and to act as adversaries in their training?
A: Because their commanders want the best for them.
Props to the OP for starting yet another good discussion. I'd like to add a few tidbits.
I have seen many of the "top" SD trainers, even a few on here, shoot in person. Frankly, their shooting skills are mediocre at best. But many had very good tactics. If you have great tactics, you may avoid the use of lethal force. If your tactics suck, you had better be a good shooter!
It is all about the cognitive stack IMHO. What is the cognitive stack you might ask? In general, a person can only hold so much information, and process a limited amount of new information, at one time. When you hit 5 items in the stack (for most) one item will be pushed out. Youth and the elderly have maybe only 2-4 items in their cognitive stack. Animals only have one. It is a relevant topic I discuss in training whether it is a CCW focused or competition focused course.
When you handle firearms frequently, and shoot frequently, the necessity for the actual firearms manipulation can eventually leave the cognitive stack. I do not need to think about breathing, walking or seeing, same with firearms manipulation. When I drop the bolt on an AR, I do NOT need to press check (and possibly induce a failure) because I know how it sounds and feels when a round chambers, and when one does not. I do not try to fire a round with an empty firearm, I instinctively know when I have run dry. OTOH, lack of stressors and lack of time shooting, that person will not know.
When my firearms manipulation and shooting are not in the stack, it leaves room for target ID, shoot no-shoot decisions, use of verbal judo, creation of diversion, aggressive movement off the X, etc. Fill that stack up with the draw, sight alignment, safety off and trigger press...you only have so much of the stack left to process NECESSARY new information melded with your initial assessment.
My SD guns are almost identical to my competition guns. In fact, some pull both roles. I try to do FOF as often as I can as well. FWIW, the worst habits I developed (and had to break) came about from shooting IDPA.
A; Over half are LE and Mil with excellent service records. Talk to them (i have, at length) about the benefits and or liabilities of shooting high level competition.
Q: Why do numerous LE and mil units seek out high level civilian competitors as contractors to get training and to act as adversaries in their training?
A: Because their commanders want the best for them.
Props to the OP for starting yet another good discussion. I'd like to add a few tidbits.
I have seen many of the "top" SD trainers, even a few on here, shoot in person. Frankly, their shooting skills are mediocre at best. But many had very good tactics. If you have great tactics, you may avoid the use of lethal force. If your tactics suck, you had better be a good shooter!
It is all about the cognitive stack IMHO. What is the cognitive stack you might ask? In general, a person can only hold so much information, and process a limited amount of new information, at one time. When you hit 5 items in the stack (for most) one item will be pushed out. Youth and the elderly have maybe only 2-4 items in their cognitive stack. Animals only have one. It is a relevant topic I discuss in training whether it is a CCW focused or competition focused course.
When you handle firearms frequently, and shoot frequently, the necessity for the actual firearms manipulation can eventually leave the cognitive stack. I do not need to think about breathing, walking or seeing, same with firearms manipulation. When I drop the bolt on an AR, I do NOT need to press check (and possibly induce a failure) because I know how it sounds and feels when a round chambers, and when one does not. I do not try to fire a round with an empty firearm, I instinctively know when I have run dry. OTOH, lack of stressors and lack of time shooting, that person will not know.
When my firearms manipulation and shooting are not in the stack, it leaves room for target ID, shoot no-shoot decisions, use of verbal judo, creation of diversion, aggressive movement off the X, etc. Fill that stack up with the draw, sight alignment, safety off and trigger press...you only have so much of the stack left to process NECESSARY new information melded with your initial assessment.
My SD guns are almost identical to my competition guns. In fact, some pull both roles. I try to do FOF as often as I can as well. FWIW, the worst habits I developed (and had to break) came about from shooting IDPA.
Glenn E. Meyer
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That's an important empirical question for any of the gun games.
It's hard to find examples of someone losing a fight because of a specific gun game action.
I will propose one. Seven BGs deploy to attack you and you won't shoot them until you hear a beep!
Anyone who shoots competitions for a bit knows that they are not realistic but do give technique practice.
It's hard to find examples of someone losing a fight because of a specific gun game action.
I will propose one. Seven BGs deploy to attack you and you won't shoot them until you hear a beep!
Anyone who shoots competitions for a bit knows that they are not realistic but do give technique practice.
From watching how people interact under just a mild amount of stress in scenario-based role playing exercises, I can tell you that unless you always use cover carefully and appropriately -- you won't, under stress.
Think that could be bad? So do I.
The only people who do worse at using cover than those who have practiced doing it inefficiently, are those who haven't practiced using cover at all.
It's shocking how many people have to be hauled back behind cover by their collars, in order to finish the exercise and not get kilt by standing in the open, glaring at the bad guy.
We tend to think that because our brains know to do something, our bodies will know to do it. That's not true. Experiential learning is a thing.
pax
Think that could be bad? So do I.
The only people who do worse at using cover than those who have practiced doing it inefficiently, are those who haven't practiced using cover at all.
It's shocking how many people have to be hauled back behind cover by their collars, in order to finish the exercise and not get kilt by standing in the open, glaring at the bad guy.
We tend to think that because our brains know to do something, our bodies will know to do it. That's not true. Experiential learning is a thing.
pax
Wow, the comments are like dodging bullets here. I shoot IDPA for my own benefit and practice not to compete. My times are in the bottom 1/3 of all those shooting, do I care about that, NO. I am more concerned about points down (misses) than that I finished a stage in 15 seconds or less.
Most stages are done in 25 seconds of less, so you do not have a lot of time to make mistakes in getting your 16 shots off while doing a tactical reload.
I can still hear the SO behind me saying keep moving, keep moving, get behind cover. I have found no other type of shooting that allows me to move while lining my front sight on target and getting my shots off. Not just side to side, but walking in or out of a target problems as well. And finding cover when I need to reload.
If you never had to shoot while moving out of harms way, you have no idea of what I am talking about. It is a skill set that IDPA will give you that you will not find in a range where you stand flat footed shooting at a stationary target. From the starting beep you are moving all the time, unless you are behind hard cover.
I need to find some hard cover now and slice the pie before the comments on my post start coming in at me.
Stay safe and practice, practice, practice.
Jim
Pax nothing personal but I think you need to re-think your position on this.
Most stages are done in 25 seconds of less, so you do not have a lot of time to make mistakes in getting your 16 shots off while doing a tactical reload.
I can still hear the SO behind me saying keep moving, keep moving, get behind cover. I have found no other type of shooting that allows me to move while lining my front sight on target and getting my shots off. Not just side to side, but walking in or out of a target problems as well. And finding cover when I need to reload.
If you never had to shoot while moving out of harms way, you have no idea of what I am talking about. It is a skill set that IDPA will give you that you will not find in a range where you stand flat footed shooting at a stationary target. From the starting beep you are moving all the time, unless you are behind hard cover.
I need to find some hard cover now and slice the pie before the comments on my post start coming in at me.
Stay safe and practice, practice, practice.
Jim
Pax nothing personal but I think you need to re-think your position on this.
Jim?
My position is that competition can be excellent practice, but it doesn't take the place of training and isn't perfect.
Is your position that NOTHING that happens in competition could possibly be detrimental to the unmindful shooter, under any circumstances whatsoever?
If not -- we agree more than we disagree.
(And let me repeat myself here: "The only people who do worse at using cover than those who have practiced doing it inefficiently, are those who haven't practiced using cover at all."
pax
My position is that competition can be excellent practice, but it doesn't take the place of training and isn't perfect.
Is your position that NOTHING that happens in competition could possibly be detrimental to the unmindful shooter, under any circumstances whatsoever?
If not -- we agree more than we disagree.
(And let me repeat myself here: "The only people who do worse at using cover than those who have practiced doing it inefficiently, are those who haven't practiced using cover at all."
pax
shot a Steel Challenge yesterday, first time the club has had that, first time i've shot that. 5 targets, different sizes/shapes, various distances, one you have to shoot last (stop plate). your stand in a box (we painted the ground) and go on the beep. you score is your time, low wins. but my goal was to not miss. and i largely succeeded. no moving, no cover, just timed accuracy. one shot per plate. you get some practice on moving your gun between targets and shooting accurately on the clock.
from my very limited experience (IDPA for a year, now Steel Challenge for one day), there are things you can take away from these 'games', the most relevant so far is to shoot accurately. you can't fire fast enough and miss to win. if you are missing - SLOW down! figure out why and fix that.
most folks there yesterday also shoot IDPA, and most had various degrees of what i'll call 'gamer gear', competition specific holsters, belts, magazine carriers. me? used my carry gear. i may take an extra fraction of a second to draw, there were no reloads on the clock, and i may give some away using a smaller gun, not one with full length barrel/slide, but i'm trying to get better with what i carry everyday, not win some little prize.
i came in 2nd, only behind an IDPA Expert. primarily because i didn't miss too many targets (clocks keeps ticking). i'm good with that.
from my very limited experience (IDPA for a year, now Steel Challenge for one day), there are things you can take away from these 'games', the most relevant so far is to shoot accurately. you can't fire fast enough and miss to win. if you are missing - SLOW down! figure out why and fix that.
most folks there yesterday also shoot IDPA, and most had various degrees of what i'll call 'gamer gear', competition specific holsters, belts, magazine carriers. me? used my carry gear. i may take an extra fraction of a second to draw, there were no reloads on the clock, and i may give some away using a smaller gun, not one with full length barrel/slide, but i'm trying to get better with what i carry everyday, not win some little prize.
i came in 2nd, only behind an IDPA Expert. primarily because i didn't miss too many targets (clocks keeps ticking). i'm good with that.
If you have a chance to shoot a night match, regardless of discipline, do it.
Provided the match employs the safety protocols correctly (not all do) it is a very valuable set of lessons. When I shoot night matches, I shoot my actual defense M&P with a stock trigger, and a defense purposed AR and shotgun. Shooting stock SD guns in "Open" division hurts my scores, but the lessons learned have been worth it.
Provided the match employs the safety protocols correctly (not all do) it is a very valuable set of lessons. When I shoot night matches, I shoot my actual defense M&P with a stock trigger, and a defense purposed AR and shotgun. Shooting stock SD guns in "Open" division hurts my scores, but the lessons learned have been worth it.
Unfortunately training tends to be very expensive and and far away, MOST shooters do not have the resources that they can spare to take advantage of it. My position is that any practice you can afford is helpful, but that IDPA is not expensive and is something that can help your self-defense skills.
That's all I am saying.
Thanks
Jim
The IDPA match, where you meet the "I have never done this B/4 person!"
They get help from all kinds of people, and as you see them improve, radically, better holsters, mag pouches (mag pouches that both face the same way!) change to pistols that work all the time!
Is IDPA good? It sure is, the things you get to do...Shoot on the move, take cover, shoot in all kind of weird positions, rapid reloads from an empty gun, a locked back slide. Shoot left hand/right hand.
And mostly shoot all targets twice! I really believe in that, you get better hits that way. With 16 ready to go, can't be bad. Just carrying, only 10 rounds, or less in IDPA.
Tactical reloads, stupid! The shoot all targets once, then come back to shoot a further round on each target, bunk.
Shoot 150 rounds from the holster, once a month? Great. And patch the targets after each shooter, not like most Police and Security, flood the targets with shots, replace them at the end!
They get help from all kinds of people, and as you see them improve, radically, better holsters, mag pouches (mag pouches that both face the same way!) change to pistols that work all the time!
Is IDPA good? It sure is, the things you get to do...Shoot on the move, take cover, shoot in all kind of weird positions, rapid reloads from an empty gun, a locked back slide. Shoot left hand/right hand.
And mostly shoot all targets twice! I really believe in that, you get better hits that way. With 16 ready to go, can't be bad. Just carrying, only 10 rounds, or less in IDPA.
Tactical reloads, stupid! The shoot all targets once, then come back to shoot a further round on each target, bunk.
Shoot 150 rounds from the holster, once a month? Great. And patch the targets after each shooter, not like most Police and Security, flood the targets with shots, replace them at the end!
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FireForged
New member
There are always going to me grown men and women who may have some inferiority complex but I do not think that is what is at the center of this discussion. The argument could easily go the other direction as well and suggest that those who hold absolute marksmanship in such high regard are using it as a crutch against a lack of tactical abilities and strategics.
The biggest Korean I ever met was a guy we called KIM. I dont recall if that was his first name or his last name but he was big. Kim could demonstrate near perfect TKD forms and was very impressive to watch. Although he was very good at forms, Kim could not spar and lost nearly every match. This is an example of why tactics and strategics are so important. As a young kid I could not understand why Kim could not fight. One day there was a group soldiers watching Kim spar and I remember one asking "what was wrong with the big one". The other soldier said, he is dancing and his opponent is fighting. That is when I finally understood!
I guess in my mind, anything that we call training or "practice" that is devoid of proper tactics and strategics... is just a dance.
The biggest Korean I ever met was a guy we called KIM. I dont recall if that was his first name or his last name but he was big. Kim could demonstrate near perfect TKD forms and was very impressive to watch. Although he was very good at forms, Kim could not spar and lost nearly every match. This is an example of why tactics and strategics are so important. As a young kid I could not understand why Kim could not fight. One day there was a group soldiers watching Kim spar and I remember one asking "what was wrong with the big one". The other soldier said, he is dancing and his opponent is fighting. That is when I finally understood!
I guess in my mind, anything that we call training or "practice" that is devoid of proper tactics and strategics... is just a dance.
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Dunno why people always have to set this up as either/or -- when it's really both/and.
If your problem can only be solved with good tactics, the best marksmanship in the world isn't going to save your butt.
If your problem can only be solved by actually, you know, hitting the target, that fancy little tactical rain dance isn't going to make a squirrel's nuts' worth of difference to your chances of survival.
Learn to hit your target.
Learn to think with gun in hand.
Then learn to hit your target better -- faster, at farther distances, with more precision, under tougher circumstances.
Then learn to think better -- with more honesty about what you can or cannot actually do, with more integrated reactions, with less of your mind occupied by running the machine in your hand and more of your mind focused on solving the problem at hand.
Don't be too arrogant to learn new stuff. Don't be too arrogant to admit you may need instruction. Don't be too arrogant to admit you don't already know this stuff and don't be so arrogant that you put yourself and everyone around you at risk from your ignorance.
The first step to learning anything is to admit you don't already know it all.
Nobody was born knowing this stuff, and nobody learned it as a 6-year-old when daddy took 'em out to shoot.
pax
If your problem can only be solved with good tactics, the best marksmanship in the world isn't going to save your butt.
If your problem can only be solved by actually, you know, hitting the target, that fancy little tactical rain dance isn't going to make a squirrel's nuts' worth of difference to your chances of survival.
Learn to hit your target.
Learn to think with gun in hand.
Then learn to hit your target better -- faster, at farther distances, with more precision, under tougher circumstances.
Then learn to think better -- with more honesty about what you can or cannot actually do, with more integrated reactions, with less of your mind occupied by running the machine in your hand and more of your mind focused on solving the problem at hand.
Don't be too arrogant to learn new stuff. Don't be too arrogant to admit you may need instruction. Don't be too arrogant to admit you don't already know this stuff and don't be so arrogant that you put yourself and everyone around you at risk from your ignorance.
The first step to learning anything is to admit you don't already know it all.
Nobody was born knowing this stuff, and nobody learned it as a 6-year-old when daddy took 'em out to shoot.
pax
I am also another that shoots IDPA with my every day carry gun. I carry a Glock 27 (SUB compact in 40 caliber) and yes the first year I competed I even used full power factory ammo.
I just started reloading a few months ago to decrease cost.
As far as the idea that IDPA people would laugh at a newbie or embarrass them. I would say defiantly not at my gun club! Everyone that I have meant at three regional matches and two state matches and all the club practice nights have been friendly and helpful.
While I agree that IDPA is a game, it has made me a better shooter. I have not taken a tactical class, but I think it makes sense to get you skill level up to point where you are not wasting money and ammo taking a tactical class and just throwing ammo downrange with out even making good hits. If IDPA or IPSC can make you shoot more accurately and learn how to do malfunction drills and reloads faster than I think it makes sense to learn these skills before you spend big bucks on a tactical class.
On the comment someone made about the doctor that was kidnapped as he was loading his car for a match, I wear my gear and carry my gun on me to the match. Sure I might look a little funny in a vest, but so what. The counter people at Mcdonald's have never asked, or noticed the gun.
I just started reloading a few months ago to decrease cost.
As far as the idea that IDPA people would laugh at a newbie or embarrass them. I would say defiantly not at my gun club! Everyone that I have meant at three regional matches and two state matches and all the club practice nights have been friendly and helpful.
While I agree that IDPA is a game, it has made me a better shooter. I have not taken a tactical class, but I think it makes sense to get you skill level up to point where you are not wasting money and ammo taking a tactical class and just throwing ammo downrange with out even making good hits. If IDPA or IPSC can make you shoot more accurately and learn how to do malfunction drills and reloads faster than I think it makes sense to learn these skills before you spend big bucks on a tactical class.
On the comment someone made about the doctor that was kidnapped as he was loading his car for a match, I wear my gear and carry my gun on me to the match. Sure I might look a little funny in a vest, but so what. The counter people at Mcdonald's have never asked, or noticed the gun.
When I was a kid, my mom would sign us up for swimming lessons every year right after school got out for summer vacation. For a couple of weeks every summer, if you went down to our town’s public swimming pool in the morning, you would see clumps of maybe six or seven squealing little kids all over the place. They’d all be bobbing up and down and splashing the patient teenagers were were trying to show them how to swim.
If you took swim lessons when you were little, do you remember what the first day was like? It seemed like there was always that one kid who had both his arms and legs firmly wrapped around his mom’s leg, holding on for dear life and shrieking, “But Mommy! I can’t get in the water with the teacher! I don’t know how to swim!!!”
Poor little guy.
What does childhood swim lessons have to do with taking a defensive handgun class as an adult? Plenty! It happens often that people will ask, “Am I good enough yet to take a class?” Sometimes the person asking the question is truly a beginning shooter. Other times they’ve been shooting for awhile. In either case, they’re concerned because they think they have to reach a certain level of skill before they will benefit from professional firearms instruction.
That's actually a lie. The people who get the most value for their training dollar are those who haven't yet deeply engrained inefficient habits by practicing stuff they haven't learned good ways to do.
The people who've spent a lot of time teaching themselves A way to do something (not necessarily the most efficient or reliable way to do it, but just a way that works for them) -- well, when they decide to improve from where they're at, they're going to spend a lot of time erasing the bad habits before they can build better ones. That takes time and money and energy. Sometimes quite a lot of it.
Meanwhile, the guy who started out by getting a good foundation, and then practicing the skills he learned, is going to save a metric buttload of time and ammo money getting to the same level of skill. And then he's going to surge ahead, because he won't have to extinguish the overlearned bad habits when they sneak back under stress.
Like swim lessons for little kids, we don’t hold a class to validate what you already know, or just to let you show off your shooting for everyone. If you want to do that, you can open your own YouTube channel and have thousands of adoring fans within a week (at least if you dress interestingly enough).
pax
Kathy, that is all based on personality. I just jumped in the neighbors pool and figured it out. 
Plus, I would venture to say that the average person on TFL is a better shooter than at least half of the "professional instructors" many of which teach bad habits.
Learning to shoot, by nature needs to have some solid foundations laid. But there are plenty of good books and even videos that do more for the shooter getting started than a class will do. One or two IDPA matches with an open mind and asking of the better shooters will trump the cost and benefit of most introductory firearms courses.
While I know we both make money teaching courses, I still think training courses give more benefit to people past the introductory phase. GSSF, RFC, First Shots, Steel Challenge are all sports or programs that will give the new shooter a safe and effective introduction without the cost of a professional trainer.
Plus, I would venture to say that the average person on TFL is a better shooter than at least half of the "professional instructors" many of which teach bad habits.
Learning to shoot, by nature needs to have some solid foundations laid. But there are plenty of good books and even videos that do more for the shooter getting started than a class will do. One or two IDPA matches with an open mind and asking of the better shooters will trump the cost and benefit of most introductory firearms courses.
While I know we both make money teaching courses, I still think training courses give more benefit to people past the introductory phase. GSSF, RFC, First Shots, Steel Challenge are all sports or programs that will give the new shooter a safe and effective introduction without the cost of a professional trainer.
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