Combatives For Gunfighters

Dusty,

And for every one of those little old ladies, there are otherwise young and physically fit people whose assailants cleaned their clocks after not immediately succumbing to what could be considered solid COM hits with their handguns. Regardless of whether or not the assailant died later on.
 
Well hell! If some guy is tough enough to "clean my clock" after taking solid hits from a proven manstopper then any martial arts I'm going to pick up at my age won't be good for a damned thing!!
 
And some of these responses sound like shooters too soft and lazy (physically or mentally) to do any cross training.

Are you ALWAYS going to have your gun with you? Be honest. Are you ALWAYS going to keep people at a 30 foot radius? Are you ALWAYS going to be able to complete a smooth draw and lock into your Weaver/Iso/whatever stance without someone attempting to foul your draw?

The original post isn't saying you have to train 10 hours a day and earn all sorts of worthless belts. You should have a few simple yet widely applicable empty hands techniques that can assist your defensive use of a firearm, not replace it.
 
The gun is not the only answer. Nor is martial arts (usually more like "partial arts") the only answer. You need to be able to fight at various levels.

The 80 year granny has the ability to shoot anyone she wants. She's a granny. Its a disparity of force thing. Number one, who is going to attack her? Probably some young urban tango who could kill her with a slap. If she was attacked by another granny, she would be limited to using less force, just like you and I would if we were attacked by someone our size/age, etc. You can't shoot everyone who wants to rough you up. If you think you can, good luck.

Second thing is that Teuller Drills are designed to demonstrate time/space connections. If that knife man was seven inches away instead of seven yards, you'd get stuck if all you had was a speedy draw. Don't think so? I prove this everytime I do a Force on Force class. The closer you are, the more deadly the knife is. Don't underestimate the blade. How fast can you get that CCW pistol out from under several layers of concealment? How about with a knifeman coming against you....in an elevator. Never say never grasshopper.

As the problem gets closer, the more important it is to have something to bridge the gap (even if you are planning to shoot the bad guy). So don't discount some combatives skills even if you are justified in shooting.

Gabe Suarez
Suarez International USA, Inc.
http://www.suarezinternational.com
http://www.warriortalk.com
 
A note on 80 year old grannies. Not all grannies are created equal. Some of them didn't get old by being stupid or weak.

they got a trick or two up their dress.
 
:rolleyes: Well, I’ve said it before; and I’ll say it again: ‘I’ve played knife games all my life.’ My passion for blades has only been exceeded by my fondness for guns. I wish I could remember the names of some of those European knifefighting and assassination books I mentioned in an earlier post; but I’m, just, getting too old and senile.

I will say this, however: THE BEST USE OF A KNIFE IN COMBAT IS AS A SURPRISE WEAPON. I’d rather start a fight by grappling, any day, and, then, produce the knife than I would by, first, pulling the blade and going into a low crouch. (I don’t care if your weapon hand is forward or backward; or if your style is Echanis, or Styers.) The other guy can’t stop what he doesn’t see coming - period.

Here’s two, ‘red flags’: (1) If, during a face-to-face altercation, a protagonist suddenly steps forward (even halfway) WATCH OUT! A knifer needs to get in close. (2) If a protagonist suddenly turns EITHER shoulder toward you during a confrontation WATCH OUT because you’re, now, lined up for an effective attack. Of all the different methods of blade presentation, the very fastest is to pull from the sleeve. Personally, I’d rather have 4” of steel up my sleeve than 8” of steel on my belt – anytime!

Most gunmen know not to let anyone stand near their gun hand; what I’m saying, here, is that you have to watch your other side, too. At, ‘arm’s length’ is always a good rule, and being able to immediately recognize that your personal danger level has, just, increased whenever a protagonist suddenly stops facing you, SQUARELY AND AT ARM’S LENGTH, is another key survival habit.

I have long believed that the most dangerous, ‘fighting knife’ in the Randall Catalog is their ubiquitous, 5”, ‘Saltwater Fisherman’, utility knife. This is a short, flat knife with a nice stiff spine and index finger indentation for a hard, ‘hammer grip’. Wrap this blade in paper, slip it up your sleeve under an ACE bandage; and, in many circumstances, you’ve got a better weapon than a gun. ;)
 
Martial Arts question

All this talk about martial arts. I have a 2nd degree black belt in Ishin-ryu and am currently studying Tang Soo Do. I live in the heart of the Midwest with very little choices for the newer “combat grappling” arts that are being talked about here. In my humble opinion 90% of the traditional martial arts flat out do not prepare you for that one life or death encounter in the parking lot of the local mall or supermarket. My current Sensei during training will tell us “on the street you will never do this but you need to know it for advancement.”

I spent the better part of my life in the military and am now an operations specialist for a sub of one of the largest defense contractors in the country. I travel all over the world most of the time armed but occasionally we are prohibited to carry firearms. My question is this; what newer martial art would you recommend that teaches you just the skills needed in the modern world, not how to kick a guy off of a horse?
 
... My question is this; what newer martial art would you recommend that teaches you just the skills needed in the modern world, not how to kick a guy off of a horse?
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My compliments! You are, obviously, a very practical man. After studying in various dojos for more than 30 years I, also, came to the same conclusion. Before everyone else says so, let me be the first to suggest, ‘Krav Maga’. Here’s the link:

http://www.kravmaga.com/

It’s certainly practical and has been designed to be easy to learn. (Yes, like everything else it has it’s drawbacks and limitations.)

A few good basic everyday precautions are, (1) ANY tool in hand is better than an empty hand. (2) The eyes are, always, the preeminent target. (3) Breaking fingers and hands comes next. (4) As you know I like sleeve knives; but I, also, like pocket BUG’s. (5) Never travel alone unless you absolutely have to; and limit the amount of time you spend in any vehicle. (6) Time in transit is, always, the most dangerous time of day. (7) Constantly be alert for people who are looking at you; and (8) two of anyone else is a potential problem. (9) Remember, as paradoxical as it may seem, you're always more vulnerable in a crowd.

I’ve long believed that there’s something inside each one of us that warns of impending danger; in particular, it’s those among us who ignore these subtle warnings that usually get into trouble first. If you’ve spent any time in the philosophy section of your martial arts school, you know what I mean. (I am, by the way, a great believer in both mental and physical forms of kata.) ;)

PS: Other than this; 'Welcome to the forum!' :)
 
Welcome to the Forum! :)

Mr. Suarez, I agree with most of your post.
the pistol has a severe disadvantage, and a bladesman has the actual advantage
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Only if the blade is actually out, and only if the knife wielder can get "inside" or "around" the firearm.

Guns DO NOT require distance. In fact, I seem to remember some guru or other advocating knowing how to use them as impact tools. (I agree.) Guns allow the user to exploit distance, but at contact distance, a firearm will cause an even greater wound, effectively using the muzzle blast as a wounding mechanism, in addition to the bullet.

I 100% agree that, if forced to use a blade in defense, the way to do it, is with stealth. Use other options if possible.

John
 
Most people survive lethal encounters because they are lucky, not because they were prepared. If you look at the FBI stats on police officers killed and assaulted, you will see that the majority of deaths occur from 0 to 5 feet and that almost all nonlethal assaults occur in the same range.

If you attempt to access a tool when confronted by a lethal threat inside of this range, as your primary response, you will lose. You must have the unarmed skills to allow you the time to access tools [be it gun, knife, hand grenade, whatever;)].

Most classes deal with the mechanics of shooting. They are skills-development classes. There is nothing wrong with that and I believe they are a great starting point to allow the interested student to incorporate his 'gun skills' into his 'fight skills'. Heck, Surgical Speed Shooting is, by far, the most popular OPS class and it is nothing but skills-development. But it is not enough.

When looking at 'gun skills', you must maintain a combative perspective. Your gunhandling must support your 'fight skills'. Do you have a retention position incorporated and utilized in your presentation? Do you have a reactive or protected position to allow you to use the gun in the 0 -5 foot envelope when the bad guy is pressuring you? Have you worked these skills in force-on-force? Do they hold up?

There is no 'magic pill' that will allow you to be safe. Learning to effectively utilize unarmed skills as well as tool-based skills [gun, knife, OC, baton,whatever] is a physical and mental process. You will be tired. You will be sore. Anyone who pretends this is not the case is selling you a bill of goods.

When is the knife superior to the pistol? The knife is superior when I am in the position where I can access my knife and I cannot access my firearm or the proxemics are such that accessing my firearm would most likely result in a weapon retention issue or, due to the dynamic nature of the struggle, I have more appropiate targets available to the knife. My biggest concern when accessing a folder is the number of mechanations required prior to the establishment of a good grip [remove, open, grip] as opposed to the pistol [grip, remove]. By going with a small fixed blade, my knife access is very similar to my gun access [grip, remove].
 
Unfortunately, that same fixed blade also will tend to make LEO view you with a jaundiced eye, and will be illegal in some states (such as Georgia).

The only time I will carry a fixed blade is when doing some activity in which the blade will naturally fit in- hunting, camping, etc.

John
 
John,

Of course, you must take into account your own particulars when choosing your gear. In some venues, the mere possession of a one-hand opening folder will be viewed askance. In others, a 5-inch fixed blade may not draw undue attention. I'm not saying 'don't carry a folder', merely that they require more movement to get them into a using configuration than a fixed blade and that that skill, like all the others, must be trained.
 
Spectre
Only if the blade is actually out, and only if the knife wielder can get "inside" or "around" the firearm.
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This depends on the two opponents of course and is full of variables. The "knife guy" might simply deflect the muzzle/shooting arm while striking. And a fixed blade knife can be drawn and employed with as much speed as anything else.

I think the biggest danger with handguns is the assumption many people might have that an adversary will "do as he(or she) is told" when faced up close with a handgun during a confrontation, not instantly or at some chosen point attack - or immediately cease an attack in progress after taking several well placed hits.
 
Some folks I know, think teaching verbal challenge to non-LEO is dangerous. They believe it will get you killed, and at close range, it's not something I'd employ. If the attacker chooses to stop, well and good. Otherwise, shoot and manuever until he's not a threat.

John
 
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