Combat-Your rifle choice maters very little!
- Thread starter Dave3006
- Start date
Wild Romanian
Moderator
To Dave3006
I could not agree with you more Dave. I was in East Europe two years ago and I could not believe the difference in the physical fitness of the people there both old and young as compared to the fat Americans.
I have childred in High School and when I was attending some of the band shows I was shocked at all the overweight young cheer leaders and majorettes. The boys of course were also way overweight.
In East Europe it was hard to find a fat person. They have not forgotten how to walk over there and their diet is not comprised of junk food. As a matter of fact my Romanian girl friend even refused to feed me frozen vegatables because she believed them to be less healthful than fresh vegetables. Talk about living like a King.
I often wonder how long we would last in a war against say the Russians in their country with half our troops so overweight. W.R.
I could not agree with you more Dave. I was in East Europe two years ago and I could not believe the difference in the physical fitness of the people there both old and young as compared to the fat Americans.
I have childred in High School and when I was attending some of the band shows I was shocked at all the overweight young cheer leaders and majorettes. The boys of course were also way overweight.
In East Europe it was hard to find a fat person. They have not forgotten how to walk over there and their diet is not comprised of junk food. As a matter of fact my Romanian girl friend even refused to feed me frozen vegatables because she believed them to be less healthful than fresh vegetables. Talk about living like a King.
I often wonder how long we would last in a war against say the Russians in their country with half our troops so overweight. W.R.
Wild Romanian
Moderator
Artillary fire
For those of you that have never seen combat the main source of casuallties has always been artillery. Today's artillery is a much more sophisticated and deadly than the artillery of the last wars.
Hiding in a fox hole will not say you from air bursts.
The Germans in WWII actually relegated the riflemen to secondary status. He was to protect the machine gun crews. This was the opposite of our philosophy at the time.
When you are engaged in combat sooner or later your luck runs out. Very few soldiers engaged in long term combat survived WWII. The odds were always against them. Those that did survive did so because they were withdrawn because of illness, wounds or political reasons (hero's selling war bonds).
If you engage in War long term expect not to survive. Study History if you do not agree with me.
Many of the so called survivalists and he-men type have no idea what war is really like. It is cold, hunger, suffering and death. There is nothing glorious about it. It only reflects man's inate insanity. The next big war will be so deadly that not only will both contestants not survive but civilization and perhaps man himself will be destroyed in the process.
AS Dick Cheney said yesterday we are engaged in a war today that is different than any other ever fought in the history of our country. For the first time we the civilians will suffer more casualties than our troops in the field.
Rifles will not save you from terroist attacks consisting of biological, chemical, or hidden explosives. They are playing big time now. They no longer just shoot up airports like they did 20 years ago.
WE will undoubtably suffer many more casualties in the future. In the end we will either stay the course or decided to pull our troops out of that part of the world. This is basically what they want. What will happen only time will tell, if we are all still here to make that decision. If America wants to remain Policeman of the world I am afraid we will have to pay a bloody price to do so.
Do not misunderstand my post. I hate the terroists every bit as much as you do and if I knew were Bin Louden was all I would have to do is get within 600 yards of him. But I will leave the shooting up to younger men than myself, they can climb mountains just a little faster than I can but not by much.W.R.
For those of you that have never seen combat the main source of casuallties has always been artillery. Today's artillery is a much more sophisticated and deadly than the artillery of the last wars.
Hiding in a fox hole will not say you from air bursts.
The Germans in WWII actually relegated the riflemen to secondary status. He was to protect the machine gun crews. This was the opposite of our philosophy at the time.
When you are engaged in combat sooner or later your luck runs out. Very few soldiers engaged in long term combat survived WWII. The odds were always against them. Those that did survive did so because they were withdrawn because of illness, wounds or political reasons (hero's selling war bonds).
If you engage in War long term expect not to survive. Study History if you do not agree with me.
Many of the so called survivalists and he-men type have no idea what war is really like. It is cold, hunger, suffering and death. There is nothing glorious about it. It only reflects man's inate insanity. The next big war will be so deadly that not only will both contestants not survive but civilization and perhaps man himself will be destroyed in the process.
AS Dick Cheney said yesterday we are engaged in a war today that is different than any other ever fought in the history of our country. For the first time we the civilians will suffer more casualties than our troops in the field.
Rifles will not save you from terroist attacks consisting of biological, chemical, or hidden explosives. They are playing big time now. They no longer just shoot up airports like they did 20 years ago.
WE will undoubtably suffer many more casualties in the future. In the end we will either stay the course or decided to pull our troops out of that part of the world. This is basically what they want. What will happen only time will tell, if we are all still here to make that decision. If America wants to remain Policeman of the world I am afraid we will have to pay a bloody price to do so.
Do not misunderstand my post. I hate the terroists every bit as much as you do and if I knew were Bin Louden was all I would have to do is get within 600 yards of him. But I will leave the shooting up to younger men than myself, they can climb mountains just a little faster than I can but not by much.W.R.
Jake 98c/11b
New member
Exellent choice of topic. I think the slogan of Front Sight says it best "Any gun will do, if you will" (I might not be 100% with that one but you get the point). As a soldier and a shooter I have always looked for something better. It may not make much difference one on one but that small (tiny even) advantage is cumulative on the squad/platoon level. I tend to look at things from a military perspective so I am overly picky I think. The reload speed of the AR vs the AK and that kind of thing.
Path is right on when he said that you can be the best and still get whacked BUT the better tactician can better tell the wrong place and time.
Bastiat made a good point about sniping, school trained snipers I know say the skill is 70% fieldcraft and 30% shooting. If you havent practiced ALL of the skills you are in a world of hurt.
Who said "beware the man with one gun, he probably knows how to use it"?
Krept, practice and training will overcome a great deal. This leads me to my next point, who here has spent over a thousand dollars on firearms and gear this year? Who here has spent that kind of money for training in the last three years? By training I mean three day or longer classes from full time instructors/schools. There are more quality schools now than ever before, if you have interest in learning do so now. If the Gore camp landed in the oval office those might have been in danger.
I have been thinking about airsoft guns for training, anyone here have any experience with those? Feel and function almost exactly like the real thing and they can raise a welt bad enough to reinforce the idea that you don't wan't to get hit with it.
W.R., that hurts big guy, we are (in general) in good shape. The American public is not, I'll give you that but the soldiers should be. The rest of the world has far fewer creature comforts and are forced, by necessity, to be better exercised than Americans. Far too many people spend far too much time in front of the tube. If that includes those reading this, turn the TV off (computer too) and get out of the house, it's nice out there and it's good for you. Stop watching life and start living it. I never understood it, what would you rather have in old age, memories of what you did in life or memories of old TV shows you saw?
The operator is far more important than the tool, but I still believe in quality tools. Of course a hack with quality tools is still a hack.
Path is right on when he said that you can be the best and still get whacked BUT the better tactician can better tell the wrong place and time.
Bastiat made a good point about sniping, school trained snipers I know say the skill is 70% fieldcraft and 30% shooting. If you havent practiced ALL of the skills you are in a world of hurt.
Who said "beware the man with one gun, he probably knows how to use it"?
Krept, practice and training will overcome a great deal. This leads me to my next point, who here has spent over a thousand dollars on firearms and gear this year? Who here has spent that kind of money for training in the last three years? By training I mean three day or longer classes from full time instructors/schools. There are more quality schools now than ever before, if you have interest in learning do so now. If the Gore camp landed in the oval office those might have been in danger.
I have been thinking about airsoft guns for training, anyone here have any experience with those? Feel and function almost exactly like the real thing and they can raise a welt bad enough to reinforce the idea that you don't wan't to get hit with it.
W.R., that hurts big guy, we are (in general) in good shape. The American public is not, I'll give you that but the soldiers should be. The rest of the world has far fewer creature comforts and are forced, by necessity, to be better exercised than Americans. Far too many people spend far too much time in front of the tube. If that includes those reading this, turn the TV off (computer too) and get out of the house, it's nice out there and it's good for you. Stop watching life and start living it. I never understood it, what would you rather have in old age, memories of what you did in life or memories of old TV shows you saw?
The operator is far more important than the tool, but I still believe in quality tools. Of course a hack with quality tools is still a hack.
I was thinking, suppose you took an M16 style rifle, and got a conversion to .45 cal. Would it be possible to load a special .45 paintball bullet that would have a safe muzzle velocity and impact force to use in paintball games? Because if you could, it'd make a great training tool, and a super paintball gun. It'd make the magazine capacity and reloading realistic. And, if you could shape the paintball like a bullet, and make it take advantage of the rifling, it'd increase the range too. Just a thought.
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I'm no armchair commando.. but I play one on TV 
Just curious.. how many of you guys hunt? Sure deer and birds don't shoot back but you are in the field with real weapons using real woodscraft and stealth (I'm not talking about tree stands). And adrenaline? Wow ever have a grouse blow out of the bushes under your feet?
I shoot Idpa once a month and while its "tactical" and good fun, I've noticed that lots of people don't show up when the weather is bad. bad weather sucks but how would you know how you.. OR your gear works (gun, knife, socks whatever) if you don't go out and play in bad weather.
Paintball is a kick.. but so is hiking a 9500 ft ridge in a mild snow looking for bedded elk.
On "fancy rifles" I have a few rifles. They are ugly. They go in the woods. They get scratched ding beat up rode hard and sometimes put away wet. Sometimes I get scratched up beat up cold miserable and put away wet too. Any rifle you pick has GOT to be an all weather tool that is gonna take abuse. You are gonna take abuse too.
A $12,000 Krieghoff .470 costs money for a reason. You'd pamper it a little more than a surplus "army/navy" double.
You guys that have been there done that remind us all.. $#!7 happens. Mr. Murphy is riding shotgun with us everyday. Everything we own has a PERFECT reliablity record UNTIL it counts. Suddenly bullets don't go where they supposed to, bullet proof stuff isn't and 2 feet of sucking mud.. well sucks.
And my parting thought....
Fat old guys in camo pants at the local Shop just MIGHT HAVE served this country for your freedoms.. you remember that before you judge a book by its cover.
Just curious.. how many of you guys hunt? Sure deer and birds don't shoot back but you are in the field with real weapons using real woodscraft and stealth (I'm not talking about tree stands). And adrenaline? Wow ever have a grouse blow out of the bushes under your feet?
I shoot Idpa once a month and while its "tactical" and good fun, I've noticed that lots of people don't show up when the weather is bad. bad weather sucks but how would you know how you.. OR your gear works (gun, knife, socks whatever) if you don't go out and play in bad weather.
Paintball is a kick.. but so is hiking a 9500 ft ridge in a mild snow looking for bedded elk.
On "fancy rifles" I have a few rifles. They are ugly. They go in the woods. They get scratched ding beat up rode hard and sometimes put away wet. Sometimes I get scratched up beat up cold miserable and put away wet too. Any rifle you pick has GOT to be an all weather tool that is gonna take abuse. You are gonna take abuse too.
A $12,000 Krieghoff .470 costs money for a reason. You'd pamper it a little more than a surplus "army/navy" double.
You guys that have been there done that remind us all.. $#!7 happens. Mr. Murphy is riding shotgun with us everyday. Everything we own has a PERFECT reliablity record UNTIL it counts. Suddenly bullets don't go where they supposed to, bullet proof stuff isn't and 2 feet of sucking mud.. well sucks.
And my parting thought....
Fat old guys in camo pants at the local Shop just MIGHT HAVE served this country for your freedoms.. you remember that before you judge a book by its cover.
Wild Romanian makes some awesome points.
I have been to Gunsite, Frontsight, TFTT for rifle, shotgun, and handgun. I never knew how tactically challenged I was until I played paintball. When I play paintball, I play about ten 15 minute games in a day. Some games I survive until the end. Maybe once I am killed a minute or two into the game. And most, I am killed about midpoint or towards the end of the game.... The point is that I usually die in 25-50% of the games. The scary thought is that I die, eventually. And this is only one day.
I take my 8 1/2 year old son with me so that he knows first hand how easy it is to get dead. I never want him to volunteer to be a soldier because he saw too many John Wayne movies and thought it would be exciting.
I have been to Gunsite, Frontsight, TFTT for rifle, shotgun, and handgun. I never knew how tactically challenged I was until I played paintball. When I play paintball, I play about ten 15 minute games in a day. Some games I survive until the end. Maybe once I am killed a minute or two into the game. And most, I am killed about midpoint or towards the end of the game.... The point is that I usually die in 25-50% of the games. The scary thought is that I die, eventually. And this is only one day.
I take my 8 1/2 year old son with me so that he knows first hand how easy it is to get dead. I never want him to volunteer to be a soldier because he saw too many John Wayne movies and thought it would be exciting.
Getting back to your original post, Dave. Many times I've responded to the "most accurate battle/assault rifle for cheap" question with a "it doesn't matter as long as it is 2 1/2 min., works, and you know how to use it" response. I'm either ignored or rebuked. I've pretty much given up responding. Many posters, I suspect have less experience and skill than money and time to second guess their SHTF stockpile. I shoot IDPA and NRA Highpower Service (I'm HM) and I regularly see guys at 600 yd F-class matches strutting around with expensive rifles talking smack until they discover what it means to judge wind, mirage, etc. Even something as simple as adjusting elevation the wrong direction can send them into a tizzy. Not to sound egotistical but hand me a Bushmaster DCM, Kreiger custom this, that, or the other thing, RRA DCM, or anything else that will shoot 3/4 min. with a decent trigger and a week to get familiar with it and I will turn in Master level scores. What I guess I'm trying to say is
I sure like reading technique and method oriented posts over "is this brand better than that" type posts.
I sure like reading technique and method oriented posts over "is this brand better than that" type posts.
Melvin-Purvis
New member
Well...
As an "old fat guy" I've learned a few things reading this thread...
All that time I spent in 'scouts, the military, and hunting afield was probably for naught...
I should take up paintball..if for nothing more than the exercise...
Firearms are a youngman's game...
I should just give them all to more deserving folks than myself...specifically the young...
That I enjoyed shooting enough to make a substantial investment matters little...I should just "give" them to the young bucks that can dodge bullets...
Fleet feet beats field craft hands down everytime...
Ok guys, I'm buying into this...
Come on over and pick out what you want...
And when you become an "old fat guy", just make sure to pass them on to someone more deserving than yourselves...
As an "old fat guy" I've learned a few things reading this thread...
All that time I spent in 'scouts, the military, and hunting afield was probably for naught...
I should take up paintball..if for nothing more than the exercise...
Firearms are a youngman's game...
I should just give them all to more deserving folks than myself...specifically the young...
That I enjoyed shooting enough to make a substantial investment matters little...I should just "give" them to the young bucks that can dodge bullets...
Fleet feet beats field craft hands down everytime...
Ok guys, I'm buying into this...
Come on over and pick out what you want...
And when you become an "old fat guy", just make sure to pass them on to someone more deserving than yourselves...
I think your rifle choice can difference. Not because it is an AR or an AK or an M1 or a Scout rifle. But because hopefully you will actually test whatever weapon you choose and make sure that is is reliable and that it works for you.
Also if you have some injury or other limitiing factor you might be seriously handicapped by a bolt or pump gun vs a semi. Not saying you couldn't make it work just that your making a difficult task (winning) even more difficult. So your choice could make a big difference.
Another issue I think is important is how easy is it to actually clear malfuntions in your chosen weapon? If you have a detachable mag or hinged floorplate you can clear many jams or such much easier than you could with a blind mag or a tube type mag.
Dr. Rob mentions hunting as useful practice. I would add spending time in the woods & in town/city at night. And learning to study and use the local geography to your advantage. Learn how the seasons and weather effect your ability to move without being noticed. Night time in the woods during summer can be very dark. But the same woods at night in the winter with snow on the ground can be almost as bright as day once your eyes adjust to the dark.
For SHTF scenarios think about what you would do for sleep/camp security if your alone, or if only one or two adults with kids to take care of.
One person mentioned some LEO's doing a raid on a MJ field, if the guy in the "deer stand" had some natural or man mad barrior(s) between him and the SMG and SG armed LEO's he could have inflicted serious damage before being forced to disengage.
Also if you have some injury or other limitiing factor you might be seriously handicapped by a bolt or pump gun vs a semi. Not saying you couldn't make it work just that your making a difficult task (winning) even more difficult. So your choice could make a big difference.
Another issue I think is important is how easy is it to actually clear malfuntions in your chosen weapon? If you have a detachable mag or hinged floorplate you can clear many jams or such much easier than you could with a blind mag or a tube type mag.
Dr. Rob mentions hunting as useful practice. I would add spending time in the woods & in town/city at night. And learning to study and use the local geography to your advantage. Learn how the seasons and weather effect your ability to move without being noticed. Night time in the woods during summer can be very dark. But the same woods at night in the winter with snow on the ground can be almost as bright as day once your eyes adjust to the dark.
For SHTF scenarios think about what you would do for sleep/camp security if your alone, or if only one or two adults with kids to take care of.
One person mentioned some LEO's doing a raid on a MJ field, if the guy in the "deer stand" had some natural or man mad barrior(s) between him and the SMG and SG armed LEO's he could have inflicted serious damage before being forced to disengage.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Lotsa good points made, particularly about one's training and education and practicing.
However: Wild Romanian, it's an unsafe generalization about "conditioning", given the numbers of folks who spend a lot of money on gyms and bicycling--and don't forget the thousands of joggers and marathoners. We have no way of knowing what else they're good at...
A lot of us Old Farts are gonna have to rely on what we know, not how fast or far we can run. I probably wouldn't try for a lot of shoot and scoot, since scooting is not all that much of an option. However, it's that interval between 500 yards and "close enough to kill me" that might be a tad expensive for Bad Guys.
IMO: Figure out one or two "most probable" scenarios for your own situation. Figure out the most useful go-bang for those scenarios. Then perfect your shooting skills. That's really about all anybody can do.
The Absolute Law, of course, is, "Murphy was an optimist." A flexible mind is the ultimate weapon.
, Art
However: Wild Romanian, it's an unsafe generalization about "conditioning", given the numbers of folks who spend a lot of money on gyms and bicycling--and don't forget the thousands of joggers and marathoners. We have no way of knowing what else they're good at...
A lot of us Old Farts are gonna have to rely on what we know, not how fast or far we can run. I probably wouldn't try for a lot of shoot and scoot, since scooting is not all that much of an option. However, it's that interval between 500 yards and "close enough to kill me" that might be a tad expensive for Bad Guys.
IMO: Figure out one or two "most probable" scenarios for your own situation. Figure out the most useful go-bang for those scenarios. Then perfect your shooting skills. That's really about all anybody can do.
The Absolute Law, of course, is, "Murphy was an optimist." A flexible mind is the ultimate weapon.
, ArtThey've tried, but they can't. Paintballs are too fragile. If you make them tough enough to use rifling and extend the range (and shaped like a bullet), it's too hard to make the shell tough enough to survive being fired, but fragile enough to break on a human.
And right now, many paintball fields won't allow you to play with 'realistic' looking guns or automatic guns or anything else for insurance reasons.
In extremely dense terrain or maybe clearing houses, they'd be fun. But they generally have limited ranges. It's a very odd thing to be in 'combat' across a 100yard field, perfectly able to see your targets walking across the grass, but your gun can't reach them (even when aimed at a 45 degree angle).
Jake 98c/11b
New member
I think Dr.Rob is right over all, can't argue with what he says.
Foxy, I agree, range limitations are a problem but it might not be as bad as we think. Studys show 98% of all small arms injuries in war are from less than 200 yards, over half are less than 75 yards. I have been told that some of these guns are reasonably accurate to 75 yards and thats a good start. Anyone here try it yet? I think more and more of our military engagments will be MOUT (urban) so short range may be the order of the day. Besides the thread seems to revolve around SHTF with one or two shooters against who knows what. That too might be all short range work, in the home and down the drive stuff.
W.R., I know what you are saying but I am not sure all of it applies, let me try to explain. In respect to the average soldier you are 100% correct, they will only live so long on the battlefield. Unfortunately the average soldier is, well, lets say unenthusiastic about hard core training, command is often worse. Very few people actually LIKE crawling through the mud in near freezing rain during training. I have yet to meet a commander who puts the same value to shooting skills and squad level tactics. Most wartime soldiers tend to wander through their tour relying on luck more than anything, read Dr Harold Grosman's book "On Killing" and (if I am remembering the right book) you will see some of what I am talking about. Here we have a collection of people who have a serious interest in shooting and shooting skill, and for those that build this interest into real proficiency and add good field skills it becomes a different ball game. A few other points, there have been more civilians hurt in war for near 100 years or more. If you look you will see several examples of soldiers who have survived near impossible odds time and again, this reminds me of another old quote i will probably butcher,
Out of 100 men 10 shouldn't even be there,
80 are nothing more than targets,
9 are fighters and we are lucky to have them, they make the fight
But the one, he is a true Warrior and he will bring the rest back.
The one (and, I suppose the other nine) is what I am talking about. He is probably born and not made but that is the ideal to strive for, some may have it and never know it unless someone shows him the way. The nine can be made, if they are willing. I hope to stand rank with those nine some day, that is my goal. Just because most won't make it doesn't say we shouldn't try.
Foxy, I agree, range limitations are a problem but it might not be as bad as we think. Studys show 98% of all small arms injuries in war are from less than 200 yards, over half are less than 75 yards. I have been told that some of these guns are reasonably accurate to 75 yards and thats a good start. Anyone here try it yet? I think more and more of our military engagments will be MOUT (urban) so short range may be the order of the day. Besides the thread seems to revolve around SHTF with one or two shooters against who knows what. That too might be all short range work, in the home and down the drive stuff.
W.R., I know what you are saying but I am not sure all of it applies, let me try to explain. In respect to the average soldier you are 100% correct, they will only live so long on the battlefield. Unfortunately the average soldier is, well, lets say unenthusiastic about hard core training, command is often worse. Very few people actually LIKE crawling through the mud in near freezing rain during training. I have yet to meet a commander who puts the same value to shooting skills and squad level tactics. Most wartime soldiers tend to wander through their tour relying on luck more than anything, read Dr Harold Grosman's book "On Killing" and (if I am remembering the right book) you will see some of what I am talking about. Here we have a collection of people who have a serious interest in shooting and shooting skill, and for those that build this interest into real proficiency and add good field skills it becomes a different ball game. A few other points, there have been more civilians hurt in war for near 100 years or more. If you look you will see several examples of soldiers who have survived near impossible odds time and again, this reminds me of another old quote i will probably butcher,
Out of 100 men 10 shouldn't even be there,
80 are nothing more than targets,
9 are fighters and we are lucky to have them, they make the fight
But the one, he is a true Warrior and he will bring the rest back.
The one (and, I suppose the other nine) is what I am talking about. He is probably born and not made but that is the ideal to strive for, some may have it and never know it unless someone shows him the way. The nine can be made, if they are willing. I hope to stand rank with those nine some day, that is my goal. Just because most won't make it doesn't say we shouldn't try.
I was once invited to an IPSC shoot by some friends that know my affliction for guns and my dislike for 1911-style guns. I showed up with the stuff I know how to handle. That is, a SIG P226 with a sport trigger, a Winchester 1300 with ghost rings and my SIG 510 (back then, I didn't have any .223 gun).
In the standard class, with my 226, I scored third out of ten, with the shotgun 6 out of 23, and with the lowly, unwieldy SIG 510, I became second. Especially that last result surprised the heck out of me - everybody had Aimpoints, Trijicons ACOGs and whatever red-dot sights existed about 5 years back. Given, this was not against the super IPSC elite, but latter the local bunch, yet I thought quite a few of these guys were much better shots than I.
Although, not really well-trained for running on the rifle stage, though - going jogging every other day sure helps physical condition!
As it turned out, the Swiss Army taught me how to shoot. It later retrained me to use the SIG550, which is even better for IPSC rifle stages.
BTW: The guy that outclassed me in the rifle stage did it with a genuine M16 (yep, full-auto). He didn't have the fancy stuff neither. Had a beer with him later, found out he went to Vietnam for three tours. And supposedly, he spent his military life in places closer to the enemy than most of us on TFL ever have.
In the standard class, with my 226, I scored third out of ten, with the shotgun 6 out of 23, and with the lowly, unwieldy SIG 510, I became second. Especially that last result surprised the heck out of me - everybody had Aimpoints, Trijicons ACOGs and whatever red-dot sights existed about 5 years back. Given, this was not against the super IPSC elite, but latter the local bunch, yet I thought quite a few of these guys were much better shots than I.
Although, not really well-trained for running on the rifle stage, though - going jogging every other day sure helps physical condition!
As it turned out, the Swiss Army taught me how to shoot. It later retrained me to use the SIG550, which is even better for IPSC rifle stages.
BTW: The guy that outclassed me in the rifle stage did it with a genuine M16 (yep, full-auto). He didn't have the fancy stuff neither. Had a beer with him later, found out he went to Vietnam for three tours. And supposedly, he spent his military life in places closer to the enemy than most of us on TFL ever have.