Combat-Your rifle choice maters very little!

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Dave3006

New member
Alot of us debate the whole "the best rifle" thing all the time. I don't claim to have actual combat experience. However, I am willing to bet that your choice of rifle will matter very little whether or not you survive a SHTF, riot, foreign invasion, ect... scenario. Assuming your rifle works and you know how to fire it, your ability to be in the right place and do the right thing will determine whether you live or die. Just from my experience in a silly little game like paintball, you die based on good or bad decisions. Did you get flanked? Did you use cover and concealment well enough? Did you take unnecessary risks? Did you see the person waiting behind the bushes that shot you? Did you peak over the same place too many times in a row? Did you get tunnel vision on just one opponent? The list could literally go on and on. Furthermore, every time I go to the range, I see fat old guys with guns. I mean fat. Most guys would have a coronary running 2 miles. Good grief, put your guns down and go jogging. Go to the salad bar for crying out loud. Most of these guys would not last 12-24 hours before their out of shape bodies effected their concentration to the extent they made stupid decisions that got them killed. Your mind does effect your body.

Bottom line. Your ability to buy a gun will not save you. A FAL, M1A, Garand, AR15, or AK will be good enough. What will determine whether you live or die will be partially luck and partially good tactical decisions. You can not make good decisions if you are so fricken out of shape that you can't think straight.

End of rant. I love my guns. However, guns can be a crutch for some people. Look at the big picture.
 
Most of these guys would not last 12-24 hours
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:confused: You'd give 'em THAT long?


Excellent points. Your ablilty to think and move and keep thinking and moving is FAR more important than whether you have a "1000 yard" battle rifle or not.

Marksmanship is very important. So is a sound knowledge of tactics. So is the ability to execute those tactics.
 
Actually you can be the best tactician in the world and get zapped. Battle rifle or no! It is a function most times of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Dumb luck!;)
 
excellent thread.

I have found that a lot of "gun people" worry and turn things over and over.

What if? What if? Some people really do make themselves sick with worrying,

(What if my 1911 jams, maybe I should get something less likely to jam, but then it isn't as powerful, but then again it has higher capacity.)

(What if my rifle shoots .25 less accurate than other people are getting, is this the end!?)

I understand being prepared for anything, but to me, it is pretty pointless to worry about what kind of a gun a person has for an emergency. As long as it works, and they know how to use it, those are the two things that matter.

I say this as I too worry, just about some different things than this.

Good point about the fat guys with big guns, I guess they plan on laying low, because they'll have to.

jj
 
IMHO, I've seen too many people with the opinion that if TSHTF they are going to turn into the 'ultimate sniper': "Yep, all I need is bolt action 308 - I'll be out 500 yards and they won't even see it coming." Which sounds like a good plan unless you actually have to walk around in the woods. You're not going to see 500 yards, and if a person or a group surprises you, you're going to be at a disadvantage to semi-autos.

I'd only carry a 'sniper rifle' in the above situations if I had others with me that had semi-autos. My prefered carry would be something like an ak-74. High capacity, high velocity, accurate, low recoil, lighter ammo, dependable, and easy to keep working.

If you do meet up with an enemy, they're not going to care if you're firing a 5.45, 5.56, or 7.62 projectile at them. You just need something that goes 'bang' every time you pull the trigger and puts the round close enough to where you were aiming. And if you can rattle off 30 rounds in 30 seconds, you may just convince the other guy to go somewhere else.
 
Well no question, a lot of this "best gun" stuff is psychological.

But don't discount that factor!

If you're the guy in the crappy situation, there's something to be said for knowing you're holding a fine weapon that you know inside and out and TRUST. It gives you a mental edge that may be more valuable than the caliber and/or tiny little groups it can shoot!

Is that mental edge worth $500, $1000, maybe more?

You bet. Same goes for handguns, hell, same goes for *knives*. Without a CCW permit yet, I carry the single best folding combat knife make, paid almost $200 for a first-issue handground, 5.45" blade, carried in a homebrew IWB rig I recently finished :D.

Don't criticize the people with really nice guns. Over-confidence on the other hand, should be tactfully pointed out :D.
 
Howdy,

First, I want to say that this post is made by a certified gun nut.

However, guns are a crutch for a lot of people. Its easy to think, "I have a gun, now I can defend myself and my country". Great. We need guns sometimes. Those times are few and far between. Most of the time, guns are just plain fun. We tell ourselves, as an excuse to spend more money most of the time, that we NEED something else to be "safe" or to defend ourselves from some set of nutjobs or other.

The fact is that a guy with some skill and a Marlin .30-30 can probably do everything he needs to do with a rifle as well as I can with an AR, FAL, Garand, or any other such "Assault Rifle" or "Battle Rifle".

I live in the country. I am unlikely to see any terrorists or riots around my house. My rifles are at my house. When I'm out and about in public, I have a handgun. I have a rifle I keep in the trunk of my car, but unless I'm going out of the county, I'm usually driving the cruiser, and we are allowed rifles, so its a slug-loaded 870 at best.

Maybe if we were invaded ala "Red Dawn", my collection of rifles at my home might become useful, if the invading troops could even find me out in the middle of nowhere. Realistically though, there isn't anyone who is going to invade us in such a fashion.

As I see it, we are going to face (or have the possibility of facing) the following threats:

-Some bozo with a nuclear weapon in one of our major cities (New York, DC, LA) If its DC I'm screwed, being 90 miles from there, the blast won't get me but the fall out will, somehow I think the blast might be better actually.

-Biological or Chemical attacks, Anthrax, Small Pox, Nerve Gas, etc.

-Additional terrorist attacks similar to Sep.11, conventional bombings, more airline cruise missles, etc.

-Single or small groups of suicide terrorists popping up at schools, malls, the Wal-Mart, etc. with AKs and shooting as many people as quickly as they can until someone kills them (whcih they don't care about anyway, afterlife here we come). Religious fanatics are hard to scare, cause death is no big deal becasue of their beleif system.

Off all those possibilities, a rifle might help us in the last one. In the rest of them, those of us with rifles will just be dead guys holding rifles instead of dead guys.

The problem is that if three guys with AKs pop up in the mall and strat shooting, unless you have a rifle over your sholder, it won't make much difference.

The original poster is right. Guns are not going to be the catch all that us gun nuts (myself included) seem to think they are. They are fun, and sometimes totally necessary, unless we find ourselves involed in a conventional war on our mainland, we are going to need tools other than rifles to prevale.
 
Ha-ha ! I remember being 14, with my crappy little "Spartan" pump paintball gun, defending the fort (Youngest always got stuck defending the fort) when along comes this fat old yuppie with his $$$$ semi auto. SPLAT-SPLAT-SPLAT-SPLAT-SPLAT !!! The guy was letting loose, hosing down the place. Must have shot $20 worth of ammo just "laying down cover". Well, my poor ass only had 50 rounds left to shoot for the rest of the day, so I bellied around and with one shot took him out while he was busy painting the fort :D. Before the match he had been bragging about how he was in Vietnam and how well trained he was :rolleyes:. There were a lot of those types there.

You're right, being in shape and being a small target makes a difference, but I wouldn't underestimate the importance of a quality gun. My pump was slow firing and broke paintballs all the time. Not to mention it was only accurate out to 15-20 yards. I got killed quite often because I couldn't lay down fast aimed fire reliably.

If I were to play paintball again my requirements (in order) would be reliability, accuracy, and magazine volume so I can lay down a lot of fire fast. The ability to stretch out your shot is important too. Often I would spot targets before they could see me but they were not within range. I felt a lot more confident engaging large numbers at a distance as opposed to up close where I had a 50/50 chance of being shot.
 
Interesting thread. I think that I would be careful about making generalized comments about fat old guys with expensive battle rifles. Agree completely that being in good physical condition is important but at the same time, I've seen some fat old guys who could carry their share of the load and still kick butt .....

What is it they say? "Old age and treachery overcomes youth and skills every time".

Just my .02

Raider
 
The argument over rifles is like the argument over pistol ammo. In the larger picture, it is a minor point. What you fail to take into consideration is that, when the shootin' starts, you want EVERY advantage you can get, no matter how small. It is therefore important to compare even LBE. A man who can't reload in a reasonable amount of time may find himself on the losing end, so you get the best LBE you can.

A team was one clearing a MJ field. this team was equipped with MP5s and short-barrelled AR15s. A few short-barrelled shotguns. They discovered a 'deer stand' overlooking the field. Fortunately, the guy had bugged out when the Helo showed up. A 30-06 rifle (scoped) was found in the stand, and he had a lovely shot at the team for about 300yrds (loose terrain). Is my choice of a scoped FAL a bad idea here? No. It is reliable, and capable of handling the range with required penetration. How about the MP5? No legs for 300yrds. Shotgun, too. Oh, by the way, the stand had 1/4" steel plate all around it. How about if I had taken an AK?

Most of the posts I've reviewed have discussed rifles in regard to their tactical capabilities. Every point you brought up is a TACTICS issue. Wanna play sniper w/ a bolt action? Engagement range with a semi-auto? It all ends up as a read in tactics.

Last, don't expect too much prom paintball to carry over. Remember that bushes in real life only provide concealment, not cover. Plywood only provides concealment. You can expect to have to re-load in real life. How fast you run is a LOT less important in real life (no super-slow round arcing toward you at a couple hundred feet per second). You take a lot fewer chances in real life.
 
my paintball team will out last many a perfect weapon owning squad

i have been shot may times in the field

there are a bunch of stupid mistakes that you learn in the heat of battle

>>>>>>>>>>
lesson 1

i wonder if i should...
thwwwwwack!
>>>>>>>>>>>

play paintball
survive!

dZ
 
Last, don't expect too much prom paintball to carry over. Remember that bushes in real life only provide concealment, not cover. Plywood only provides concealment. You can expect to have to re-load in real life. How fast you run is a LOT less important in real life (no super-slow round arcing toward you at a couple hundred feet per second). You take a lot fewer chances in real life.
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Good points. One question I have is this: do they make paintball guns that behave and handle like real weapons? (note: not LOOK like real weapons, I'd never want a marker confused for a gun...that could get a person shot) I have played paintball a couple of times (like, 3), and was always turned off by:

1. spray and pray- "I have a hopper of 100 and tubes of a few zillion more, why not paint the bushes yellow?"

2. ergonomics- not very gunlike handling

3. sights

This would not eliminate all of the problems mentioned above, but having markers that weighed as much as real guns, handled like real guns, recoiled like real guns, and had limited ammo and reloaded like real guns (thus forcing AIMING like real guns) would be an excellent training tool.

Yes, I'm aware of "Simunitions"...spendy and not very reliable, and they use real guns (this has good and bad points).

Mike
 
I agree that paintball is not a perfect simulation for real life fighting. You can't use bushes and grass for cover. However, paintball does burn forever in your mind that you do NEED cover. Most people know that with bullets it will be a different type of cover. I see this as a non-issue.

Jim March - I am like you. I have a very nice Benchmade AFCK that I carry everywhere. I too am living in captivity deep in occuppied Kali. I have 10 years of Karate. But, I have never learned to knife fight. How dumb is that? Just having a knife is not good enough. Next weekend, I am taking a two day seminar at Cold Steel called "Cut and don't be cut". I will report back to the group. It is about time. I have only carried it for 5 years. About time I learned to use it.
 
Lot of good input above.

The basic weapons are;

The Brain
The Body
The Firearm.

None worth a hoot for the long haul without the other two being in good order.

Sam....been in harms way, hope I've learned better.
 
Good points, BUT

I still deadbolt my front door and lock the windows to make it difficult for the BGs to get in. Will this stop a determined thief?

HECK NO.

All my firearms are feel-good measures. The make me feel good! If the SHTF as in SHTF, a good number of people will be shaking too much to even get off a semi-accurate shot, guaranteed.


"End of rant. I love my guns. However, guns can be a crutch for some people. Look at the big picture."

Great point. This is exactly why you should still learn how to Thai kick, do a good double leg takedown, defend against the choke, knee from a clinch and elbow from the mount ;).
 
You mean training trumps equipment!!! You have to go to school? I thought I could train by having some GSC show me stuff at the range or or run around in the woods or read gunrags. You have to stay in shape? Next you'll be telling us to stay away from tobacco, alcohol and carbs and eat more veggies and fruit. Shocking.

Don't tell the gun shop commandos. That will kill them (either that or the 100 extra pounds they carry).
 
Training almost always trumps equipment. Unfortunately, on this forum, we are limited to discussion. Yes, we discuss the various qualities and usefulness of different weapons and tactics. This is actually a GOOD thing. In the time I spent as a FTO, I always tried to get the trainees to think of different scenarios and formulate responses. This way, they had already begun thinking rather than waiting until a situation similar to a scenario occurred. If you think about the capabilities of your weapon, then you are confident of it and more likely to properly employ it should you ever need to (and I hope no-one will ever need to). If you don't evaluate your equipment and philosophy and, even let other people shoot 'em full of holes, then you may end up in serious trouble.

Paintball is good for learning teamwork, and how to ride the adrenalin edge. I just object to anyone equating it with the real thing. The first time I was in a serious incident, I got up on the edge. After it was over, I couldn't stand up because of the shakes. I got over it, and, suprisingly, paintball helped me to learn to deal with the adrenalin. I do reccommend the game, but it is just that...a game. Tactics that work in real life often fail miserably in paintball simply because of the difference in equipment.
 
Good Post Dave...

Every weapon has its place. Some are what I consider 'good all around'. I doubt that I will ever see a SHTF situation in my lifetime. If I do, It will probably something caused by a lage scale disaster with civil unrest to follow. I have no plans to bug out anywhere. Still I dont think that just 'any' ole rifle is as good as say a AR or AK. Sure, you can defend your home with a .410 single shot shotgun or REM700 .243 but that would not be my choice.

I think that choosing the right weapon for the right task can make a big difference in a terrilble situation. I own the 4 rifles that I mentioned above. I didnt buy any of them with a SHTF situation in mind. If I had to grab one for any type of defense I would choose with that task in mind.
 
You are right. A NEF .410 would not be equal to an M1A. I was talking about our incredibly obsessive, post after long post debate on the AK vs. AR vs. FAL vs. G3 ect..... For practical purposes, all these rifles can get the job done. But, the choice of these guns will contribute about 10% whether you live or die.

I know why we fixate on the selection of the perfect gun. Anyone can walk in and lay down some cash and have a weapon. It takes no discipline or skill. That is too hard for most people. It requires effort.
 
Beware of the "fat old guy" who owns only only one rifle that happens to be a weathered old bolt action Mauser or M70 or whatever. He may be far deadlier than he appears. Never judge a book by its cover! I know at least one "senior citizen" who I wouldn't want to tangle with and he happens to be my best friend. He may be 65, but he is far from being "over the hill" when it comes to armed combat. I'd take this old man any day for backup over MANY younger guys!
 
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