combat grip vs. single-hand grip with help

I absolutely love threads like this. Clarifying what some take for granted, filling in assumptions and gaps in communication. This is one thing that I like about The Firing Line Forums. Knowledgeable individuals with the patience and willingness to share.

Anyhow pastor, I've been experimenting and considering this too for the last 1/2 year or so as I've been exploring shooting faster. I learned to shoot with a focus on tight groups and started with revolvers. Exploring how to shoot fast and accurately (pushing that line) with a semi auto led me to explore recoil control. And a large part of that is the grip. Like you I have noticed that for some of my guns, it seems like an optimal 1 hand grip is not optimal for a 2 hand grip for the same reason you stated: not enough space on the left side for the support hand.

Which guns? The really small ones. I have had a focus (and so has the market demand lately) for slimmer grips and slides. M&P9c, Kahr CM9, J frames, Gen 4 Glocks. I find that if the palm/heel of the support hand doesn't contact the frame optimally, it squeezes the fingertips of my strong hand which gives less recoil control and actually hurts the fingers when gripped like I mean it. If it was just pain, I could deal with it, but performance suffers too. What did I do about it?

I also considered pulling back my strong hand's middle finger to make more room for my support hand palm and to keep it from getting crushed. But then I found out that I had been acting on another assumption / instruction I'd seen in these online training videos: that the support hand should be completely thumbs forward, wrist cocked downwards to the maximum so the fingers would be pointing 45 degrees downward to the floor if they were straight, with active muscle engagement to the keep pulling the wrist that way. I shot this way for a few years (because the videos said so of course) with recoil management being sub-par. Well it turns out that if I decreased that severe angle and don't insist on the support thumb being absolutely forward (like they do on the internet) then the heel of my support hand *actually does* fit in the gap left my strong hand. May just be the shape of my hands, but bottom line is don't take the popular instruction as the gospel.

This has helped. However in my tiniest pistols, I still end up feeling like I have more finger/hand flesh present to contend with to be optimal. This brings me to another point I have recently learned.

The market for the last few years has gone for narrower thinner flatter grips. But at some point, a trade-off occurs in control, good grip for recoil management and for me this affects being able to shoot fast accurately. Grip shape matters for your given hands. Take the cross section of a Glock for example. Gen 3 glocks have a rounded front (under the trigger guard), kind of a pointed back that comes to a peak, but the sides are absolutely flat. Gen 4 Glocks have a rounded front, flatter back than Gen 3, and the sides are still flat. Same with Kahr, M&P. Flat sides don't feel palm filling (not that feeling alone matters), and don't give as much for the support hand to exert it's strength on but they are more concealable. Look at the grip on a Sig P226 or P320. The cross section is oval. The support palm doesn't have to sink as far into the valley between the tips of your strong hand and the heel. On large pistols like the Glock, the effect of flat sides can be reduced because Glocks are usually so long in the fore-aft dimension (spreading out the strong hand grip) that there is plenty of space to place the support hand. I sometimes find that slip-on grips with palm swells really change the orientation of the fingers both by expanding the circumference in general creating more space for the off-hand if needed, and a palm swell gives more meat for the support hand to clamp down on. So grip shape and grip circumference matter. Thinner/flatter/smaller is not always better depending on your needs.

Finally, something additional for you to consider: I'm convinced some pistol grips are designed with the strong hand to provide the most gripping pressure forwards and aft with fingers at the 12 o'clock and heel of the hand at 6 o'clock position. These pistols have flatter fronts and backs to the grips. But some have a very narrow and distinctive bump running down the front and/or back of the grip which do not provide much surface area to put that in the heel of the strong hand, and these pistols provide a much more solid grip with pressure coming from a more 11 o'clock and 5 o'clock position. I find that in my hands, the CZ 75 SP-01, Gen 3 Glock, and 1911 are like this. Perhaps someone with even longer fingers than mine can grip them in the same way as other pistols.

Good luck and God Bless.
 
Welcome

Use whatever grip style and stance that gets you the most accuracy in the shortest amount of time that minimizes your silhouette . Strong hand, weak hand, weaver, modified weaver, one hand, two hand, thumb forward, overlapping thumbs, tea cup...etc. Don't over think. Do what works for you.
Yeah I strongly agree with this. Man do what works for you (safely). And that goes for the type of gun as well. Don't get me wrong, I believe there are proven techniques, proven weapons, and proven types of ammunition that are best for self defense. Not everyone stands in the batter's box the same and holds the bat the same. But as long as you are comfortable and producing hits that's what it is all about. I've seen men and women shooters so confused because they have 15 different shooters swearing to them their way is correct. As long as it is safe, develop what produces hits for you. I have seen shooters at different matches that stand like they have a musculoskeletal disorder, but they are winning while the ones who didn't win stand around and talk about the winners strange stance or the way they hold their gun.
 
Lunger, search "Black Robes Battalion" from the Revolutionary War.
A few years ago I went to a large Tea Party meeting in Texas and there were guys there who attended who were dressed as colonial soldiers. Very impressive. The main one stood up in a pulpit and gave a re-enactment speech like he was from the Black Robes. Very inspirational! I bought numerous Black Robes DVDs at that meeting and gave them out at Christmas that year.
 
Not everyone stands in the batter's box the same and holds the bat the same. But as long as you are comfortable and producing hits that's what it is all about. I've seen men and women shooters so confused because they have 15 different shooters swearing to them their way is correct.

True, but on the other hand, if you don't at least try other techniques, you may not find the one that really is optimal for you, especially if the one you are currently using is producing mediocre results.
 
Not everyone stands in the batter's box the same and holds the bat the same. But as long as you are comfortable and producing hits that's what it is all about. I've seen men and women shooters so confused because they have 15 different shooters swearing to them their way is correct.

Especially on internet forums, where much of the time, people are just repeating what somebody else said on the internet, who is repeating what somebody else said on the internet, who is repeating what somebody else said on the internet, who is.............................................

"On the internet, everybody is an expert."
 
I would have to agree with the people who have said to always get your proper grip with your shooting hand. Your support hand is just that, support. If you compromise your shooting hand grip, who knows what things you could affect? This includes trigger pull, recoil management, instinctive aim... As you have already mentioned, you never know if you need to remove your "weak hand" to do something else. You would have to readjust your grip for 1-handed shooting.

For your purposes, I would consider getting a laser mounted to your gun. I have the Crimson Trace Laser Guard Pro on my Glock 43. For longer range shots with lots of bystanders, it provides a bit of reassurance. Great trigger control is still critical, but I like having the laser on my gun. Not sure what your security plan is, but I would have a known security team with armed team members strategically positioned in the back corners for maximum coverage. I hope this is just being overly cautious and that no one ever has to ever draw their guns.
 
Practice using a one-hand grip and make sure the bore-axis is aligned with your forearm. Practice drawing the handgun so that the bore is aligned with your forearm without having to re-grip the gun.

If you get a chance to use your support hand, bring it up and support your gun hand without changing your grip.

https://youtu.be/vmnLA2DuYJs

Some churches like the one I meet with have security teams. I have mixed feelings about that. I think I prefer that people provide for their own security rather than depending on someone else to do it and that no one presumes to provide me security when I haven't asked them to. But there are "widows and orphans" so to speak that could use the church's help. I say that to preface the suggestion to enlist others to help provide security for the church in the event of the kind of circumstances you described, but not without considering how a security team can go wrong.
 
labnoti said:
Some churches like the one I meet with have security teams. I have mixed feelings about that. I think I prefer that people provide for their own security rather than depending on someone else to do it and that no one presumes to provide me security when I haven't asked them to. But there are "widows and orphans" so to speak that could use the church's help. I say that to preface the suggestion to enlist others to help provide security for the church in the event of the kind of circumstances you described, but not without considering how a security team can go wrong.

I believe that something like security, especially armed security, should be well thought out and organized. This is especially true if there are multiple people carrying. Knowing who is on the security and armed will prevent mistaken identity and the accidental shooting of an armed responder. While I believe most church shootings were outsiders, I believe it is best that the members of the armed security team not be identified to the congregation. The congregation should be made aware that there is armed security and to respond only if being shot at. People may panic and shoot at anyone holding a gun.

I think it is also important to have some training and the security team needs to be vetted to show they are safe and competent. Armed security is a huge responsibility and you don't want someone who is unsafe. Since some churches are really big, it is important to know the layout extremely well and to know what are potential places for cover or concealment.
 
One problem I see with non-uniformed security no matter how organized they are, is they do not have the force of law. For example, if they order someone to drop a gun, there is no legal requirement for compliance. If they point a gun at someone, they could be lawfully shot in return. If I'm mistaken about this, please explain why.

There are multiple people carrying. The gun culture is strong here and church is one of the places people always carry, even the ones who don't bother to carry elsewhere. There is no legal distinction between the incognito security team and armed individuals. People pointing guns or shooting at anyone who happens to have a gun is a problem regardless of whether they're on a team or not.

Another potential problem I see with armed church security is where there is an expectation that they will handle the security crisis and everyone else is expected to act like sheep. Don't get me wrong though. I'm not one that wants to get involved when I'm not involved. I do see the value of a security team, because if someone is getting shot on the other side of the room, I probably would not intervene. I would just leave. If I did intervene, the security team might just see another gunman that needs to be shot. I might see them and shoot any gunman that points a gun at me. I'd rather just leave or better yet, not be there in the first place.

I pity the megachurches and the other people that join themselves to become a big soft target like the people that go to sports arenas, racetracks and big concerts where they even disarm people at the gate (typically just metal detectors and cursory bag searches).

So I'm not opposed to security teams, I just think I'd rather not be anywhere one is needed. Like I wrote, the church where I've met for last few years has a team. They're incognito. I only know the leader. Like him a lot. Weekly meetings are about 250 people. Big events exceed 400. From a security perspective, I greatly prefer the kind of churches I previously attended where meetings were 25 to 40 people.
 
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