vox rationis
New member
Yesm...and you know, after all of the academic discussions are expended, it comes down to one aphorism: "It is better to be lucky then good"
COM?
- Thread starter grdpounder
- Start date
Yesm...and you know, after all of the academic discussions are expended, it comes down to one aphorism: "It is better to be lucky then good"
DonR101395
New member
Amen to that
scorpion_tyr
New member
For a self defense shooting, when one is given the option of COM or pelvic girdle, why would anyone shoot at the pelvic girdle? If your options are limited by distance, time, etc... then shoot at the best place you can. If COM, and head shots are out of the question, the pelvic girdle is the best out of the remaining options. Here's why COM would be much better than pelvic girdle:
You're goal in a SD/HD situation is to stop the BG. Stop does not mean to limit his ability to walk or to knock him down. Stop means to stop him from being a threat. To stop the BG is to take away his ability to harm you, your loved ones, or anyone else. Shoot a guy in the pelvis, he can still pull a trigger, use a knife, choke you to death, etc.
A hit to the pelvis might not even stop his movement (if for some reason that is your goal). To take someone down to the ground you need to take him off balance. Hitting him right in his center of gravity is the worst way to do this. To take him down you'd need to hit a nerve, his spine, or break the pelvis bone in such a way as to make him unable to walk. Depending on the caliber size of BG, and many other factors, your chances of this are low to none.
When it comes to 2 to COM, 1 to the head style of training I would advise to leave this to people who have the ability to effectively train for it. If you can't spend at least a few hundred rounds at the range every month and/or don't have the ability to practice at moving targets leave the 2+1 training to the pros. The head is the smallest and hardest target to hit. It's constantly moving and in a real world situation almost impossible to hit. Most people make head shots by missing COM.
I'm not saying don't aim for the head. I'm saying that routine 2+1 training isn't a very good idea for the average civillian. Train for head shots, but not automatically following COM shots with them. Instead train for the situation where the BG isn't affected at all by your COM shots and suddenly becomes close enough for an effective head shot. That's a distance where the outline of the head can be easily seen above and on both sides of your sights.
I'll go ahead and assume that the guy the OP is referring to is actually who he claims to be, and was telling the truth. If you're not in a military special forces unit, don't train like you are. You're not going to be facing the same situations they will. What works for them is not necessarily what will work for you. Also, just because the military is doing something doesn't even mean it's what is best for them. The military changes the way they do things more often than I change shoes. Many times they do something for a few months only to go back to the old way.
There are major organs there, but no vital ones. To effectively stop a BG you need to hit something vital. Yes a direct hit to the femoral artery will lead to death very very quickly, but you have a better chance that the BG will drop dead from a heart attack than actually hitting a particular artery. Even if you do, that 3 minutes gives the BG plenty of time to kill you or your loved ones. Sepsis may kill the BG, but that will happen days or weeks later. Again he has time to do bad things to you and your loved ones.
TacticalDefense1911 (Post #23) is 100% correct.
The BG is going to have three options when you draw your gun. He's going to surrender, he's going to fight, or he's going to flee. Very very few of them surrender. Most of them flee. Many of them fight. Take away the option to flee and a very large majority are going to fight back. If I miss COM and I hit the pelvis and the BG goes down, I'm going to give him about .5 seconds to throw his weapon away and keep his hands where I can see them. If he doesn't do this by .6 seconds, he's going to catch some bullets with his brain. One should never attempt to disarm a BG. Distance is your friend. If you get close enough to take his gun away, he's close enough to take yours, and he's close enough to put a bullet in your head.
Once again, the only way to eliminate the threat of the BG is to stop him. Being stopped and being dead have the exact same symptoms. That is why I practice to shoot to kill. If I kill the BG, I will effectively stop him. That's the whole point behind using lethal force. There are only two ways a human being dies from a gunshot:
1. They bleed to death. This happens when blood vessels and or vital organs such as the heart are ruptured. This type of death can take anywhere from just a few seconds to a few hours. A direct hit to the heart will cause death in about 3.5 seconds or less. While it is still possible for the BG to enflict lethal force during this time, the trauma caused by the wound usually keeps him from doing so.
2. Direct hit to the central nervous system (CNS). This is a hit to the brain, the brain stem, or the upper portion of the spinal cord. Preferably a direct hit to the medulla oblongata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medulla_oblongata). This is the only way to immediately kill the BG. While FTF with the BG this area is located at the back of the skull right behind that nice little spot right between his eyes.
None of these vital things are located in the pelvic region. A shot there will not quickly stop a threat. This is why I train for COM, and if needed head shots. COM takes priority above the head because it's bigger and easier to hit, and because bullets have been known to bounce off of skulls.
You're goal in a SD/HD situation is to stop the BG. Stop does not mean to limit his ability to walk or to knock him down. Stop means to stop him from being a threat. To stop the BG is to take away his ability to harm you, your loved ones, or anyone else. Shoot a guy in the pelvis, he can still pull a trigger, use a knife, choke you to death, etc.
A hit to the pelvis might not even stop his movement (if for some reason that is your goal). To take someone down to the ground you need to take him off balance. Hitting him right in his center of gravity is the worst way to do this. To take him down you'd need to hit a nerve, his spine, or break the pelvis bone in such a way as to make him unable to walk. Depending on the caliber size of BG, and many other factors, your chances of this are low to none.
When it comes to 2 to COM, 1 to the head style of training I would advise to leave this to people who have the ability to effectively train for it. If you can't spend at least a few hundred rounds at the range every month and/or don't have the ability to practice at moving targets leave the 2+1 training to the pros. The head is the smallest and hardest target to hit. It's constantly moving and in a real world situation almost impossible to hit. Most people make head shots by missing COM.
I'm not saying don't aim for the head. I'm saying that routine 2+1 training isn't a very good idea for the average civillian. Train for head shots, but not automatically following COM shots with them. Instead train for the situation where the BG isn't affected at all by your COM shots and suddenly becomes close enough for an effective head shot. That's a distance where the outline of the head can be easily seen above and on both sides of your sights.
I'll go ahead and assume that the guy the OP is referring to is actually who he claims to be, and was telling the truth. If you're not in a military special forces unit, don't train like you are. You're not going to be facing the same situations they will. What works for them is not necessarily what will work for you. Also, just because the military is doing something doesn't even mean it's what is best for them. The military changes the way they do things more often than I change shoes. Many times they do something for a few months only to go back to the old way.
There are major organs there, but no vital ones. To effectively stop a BG you need to hit something vital. Yes a direct hit to the femoral artery will lead to death very very quickly, but you have a better chance that the BG will drop dead from a heart attack than actually hitting a particular artery. Even if you do, that 3 minutes gives the BG plenty of time to kill you or your loved ones. Sepsis may kill the BG, but that will happen days or weeks later. Again he has time to do bad things to you and your loved ones.
TacticalDefense1911 (Post #23) is 100% correct.
The BG is going to have three options when you draw your gun. He's going to surrender, he's going to fight, or he's going to flee. Very very few of them surrender. Most of them flee. Many of them fight. Take away the option to flee and a very large majority are going to fight back. If I miss COM and I hit the pelvis and the BG goes down, I'm going to give him about .5 seconds to throw his weapon away and keep his hands where I can see them. If he doesn't do this by .6 seconds, he's going to catch some bullets with his brain. One should never attempt to disarm a BG. Distance is your friend. If you get close enough to take his gun away, he's close enough to take yours, and he's close enough to put a bullet in your head.
Once again, the only way to eliminate the threat of the BG is to stop him. Being stopped and being dead have the exact same symptoms. That is why I practice to shoot to kill. If I kill the BG, I will effectively stop him. That's the whole point behind using lethal force. There are only two ways a human being dies from a gunshot:
1. They bleed to death. This happens when blood vessels and or vital organs such as the heart are ruptured. This type of death can take anywhere from just a few seconds to a few hours. A direct hit to the heart will cause death in about 3.5 seconds or less. While it is still possible for the BG to enflict lethal force during this time, the trauma caused by the wound usually keeps him from doing so.
2. Direct hit to the central nervous system (CNS). This is a hit to the brain, the brain stem, or the upper portion of the spinal cord. Preferably a direct hit to the medulla oblongata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medulla_oblongata). This is the only way to immediately kill the BG. While FTF with the BG this area is located at the back of the skull right behind that nice little spot right between his eyes.
None of these vital things are located in the pelvic region. A shot there will not quickly stop a threat. This is why I train for COM, and if needed head shots. COM takes priority above the head because it's bigger and easier to hit, and because bullets have been known to bounce off of skulls.
My idea behind the shot in the head, the person is very close. The target, head, is the distance away that a person would be asking for your wallet, 5 or 6 feet? At that range the head is a big target!
Punch gun forward, BANG!! This exact situation took place in Orlando, Robbery attempt at a car wash, the criminal was not that close with his sawn off shotgun apparently, and the chest was a better target, several rounds were fired, he ran away at once, fell down and died.
The place to shoot a mugger (that is what the individual appears to be here) is the part of the body that would do the most good, taking in to consideration the distance from muzzle to target. Five feet face, 12 feet center of chest, and keep firing.
Practice this on the range, electronic timer, gives you an idea of the time and motion parameters to some great extent. It all boils down to are you going for your pistol or not?
Talking of Soldier of Fortune
I met Peter Kokalis (Sic) a long time writer for S of F on Sat: night at the Glock reception here in Orlando (Shot Show) as one of three partners in a small gun company, in Ontario Canada, we imported our first ten Glock 17s in 1984, and one we sold to a Canadian gun Collector was used by Peter K, in doing the Glock 17 review in that magazine, a really good review.
Should still be in the archives.
He is quite old and bent, is Peter, a bit older than even I! The reception was first rate, the Boston Police Pipes and Drum Band played for 20 minutes or so, incredible! Off subject, worth a mention.
I met Peter Kokalis (Sic) a long time writer for S of F on Sat: night at the Glock reception here in Orlando (Shot Show) as one of three partners in a small gun company, in Ontario Canada, we imported our first ten Glock 17s in 1984, and one we sold to a Canadian gun Collector was used by Peter K, in doing the Glock 17 review in that magazine, a really good review.
Should still be in the archives.
He is quite old and bent, is Peter, a bit older than even I! The reception was first rate, the Boston Police Pipes and Drum Band played for 20 minutes or so, incredible! Off subject, worth a mention.
warrior poet
New member
Okay, here's the can opener for a nasty can of worms: Center of mass is still taught by the military, especially in initial traing. However, experience in Iraq has shown a slight problem... namely failure to drop the S.O.B. Currently, the teaching is slightly above center mass for the initial hit. The target being the heart, lungs, and all the other fun stuff in the upper thoratic cavity... aorta, vena cava, et cetera. After a hammer pair there, IF the target hasn't stopped, THEN comes the "incapacitate / failure to stop" shot.
At close range, this is a head shot to the "T-box." At greater range, the pelvic shot is used. The theory is that he can not move towards you very well (if at all), is in a s**tload of pain, and is bleeding to death- you've already shot him twice in the chest. Keeping him away until he expires is good enough, especially when there is another one, two, or more bad guys out there.
Please note that this is a guideline. If a target is armored, don't waste the ammo on anything near center of mass... unless you've got AP rounds AND are closer than 100 yards to the aforementioned bad guy. If you've got a belt-fed weapon, AKA 'Heaven,' then low center mass is the aiming point, to compensate for muzzle climb, and the "stream" of lead will punch through. With either of those, the body armor may as well be butter.
As for a "Special Forces" guy advising a pelvic shot rather than a center of mass (or modified center of mass) shot, I can only see one reason why. He might be talking about using a full auto carbine, namely the M4. Then aiming at the lower left hip (as you see the bad guy; when he's facing you it'll be his right hip) would compensate for the right and up 'full-auto' climb.
At close range, this is a head shot to the "T-box." At greater range, the pelvic shot is used. The theory is that he can not move towards you very well (if at all), is in a s**tload of pain, and is bleeding to death- you've already shot him twice in the chest. Keeping him away until he expires is good enough, especially when there is another one, two, or more bad guys out there.
Please note that this is a guideline. If a target is armored, don't waste the ammo on anything near center of mass... unless you've got AP rounds AND are closer than 100 yards to the aforementioned bad guy. If you've got a belt-fed weapon, AKA 'Heaven,' then low center mass is the aiming point, to compensate for muzzle climb, and the "stream" of lead will punch through. With either of those, the body armor may as well be butter.
As for a "Special Forces" guy advising a pelvic shot rather than a center of mass (or modified center of mass) shot, I can only see one reason why. He might be talking about using a full auto carbine, namely the M4. Then aiming at the lower left hip (as you see the bad guy; when he's facing you it'll be his right hip) would compensate for the right and up 'full-auto' climb.
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Rifleman 173
New member
Mozambique. Not pelvic girdle. Two to the chest and one to the noggin works every time. Definitely gives the bad guy something to think about when he gets over to the other side...
Chuckusaret
Moderator
Training...but......
I attended SD training while in the Army and also two civilian classes in the past couple of years. Even after the training, if it is ever necessary that I draw my weapon, I will most like start firing as the weapon clears the holster and continue to fire until the BG goes down. I would also guess that my first shot fired would hit the BG in the groin area, the next in the navel area and the next in the chest area. No one ever knows what their actions/reactions would be until they are placed in an actual attack/mugging or what ever. Hopefully we are never to be in a situation where we have to take another persons life.
I attended SD training while in the Army and also two civilian classes in the past couple of years. Even after the training, if it is ever necessary that I draw my weapon, I will most like start firing as the weapon clears the holster and continue to fire until the BG goes down. I would also guess that my first shot fired would hit the BG in the groin area, the next in the navel area and the next in the chest area. No one ever knows what their actions/reactions would be until they are placed in an actual attack/mugging or what ever. Hopefully we are never to be in a situation where we have to take another persons life.
Mozambique.
Just for clarification, and we have all done the two to the body, and one to the head drills, and called it the Mozambique.
The drill comes from an actual shooting that did happen in Africa, but the two to the body did hit, good ones, the third, and final fight stopper, aimed for the head, landed in the throat!
That was what I was told by a South African any how.
Just for clarification, and we have all done the two to the body, and one to the head drills, and called it the Mozambique.
The drill comes from an actual shooting that did happen in Africa, but the two to the body did hit, good ones, the third, and final fight stopper, aimed for the head, landed in the throat!
That was what I was told by a South African any how.
Rifleman 173
New member
The students I teach firearms to get the hang of the Mozambique real quick and accurately too. I teach them to use the Mozambique at distances under 15 yards and to get the head shot right. That means that they have to concentrate on their trigger control/pull and their front sights. I figure that the 2 to the chest will probably take care of the overwhelming bad guy problems and that the 1 to the head is extra insurance or just in case. Around where I live we've had more than a good number of head shots that dropped a bad guy.
We had one where an armed robber walks into a store, announces, "We're professionals!!" and fires one round into the ceiling. Responding officers met one bad guy at the front door and one bad guy coming out the back. The bad guy at the back pulled his revolver and the cop strafed him from the groin right up to the point of his head. The officer's 6th shot struck the bad guy slightly dead center and above his eyes. Bad guy instantly falls to the ground, flops about a bit and stops moving. The next day there is a new poster in the police squad room. It shows the dead robber on the ground with a conversation balloon showing him saying, "We're professionals."
Got to love those head shots.
We had one where an armed robber walks into a store, announces, "We're professionals!!" and fires one round into the ceiling. Responding officers met one bad guy at the front door and one bad guy coming out the back. The bad guy at the back pulled his revolver and the cop strafed him from the groin right up to the point of his head. The officer's 6th shot struck the bad guy slightly dead center and above his eyes. Bad guy instantly falls to the ground, flops about a bit and stops moving. The next day there is a new poster in the police squad room. It shows the dead robber on the ground with a conversation balloon showing him saying, "We're professionals."
Got to love those head shots.
The path of a bullet
This has been a very nice exchange of ideas, and a lot of experienced Instructors use historical data to validate their training methods, a good valid path.
Physics dictate results really. The pistol, weight and ergonomics, plus the holster, in terms of removing this object (a gun) from it's resting place, concealed on your body, It is hard to time this exercise in a gun fight! Other factors are on your mind!
But we can test this action on a range,an electronic timer works.
Knowing that when a bullet leaves the muzzle, it's trajectory will be in an ever widening path, till it hits something, or some body.
The fastest way to achieve hits is to go as close to a straight line as possible, from holster to trigger press, so up lift pistol till it clears forward lip of holster (good idea to have a lowered lip, a cut away) at this time the pistol is pointed at it's destination, and punched straight at the target, if going to a two handed hold, that second hand is contacted, during that line following, gripped tightly, and helps in the forward trajectory of the pistol, the shot breaks at the end of that stroke, or close to that point.
The distance from muzzle to target dictates that target. Rough numbers follow, 6ft, nose, 15ft upper central chest.
And remember the rule, the quickest time /distance, from A to B, is a straight line. Less than 6ft, your hands move quicker going forward, than down to your belt and back. So grabbing a gun and going hands on might be the way to go, burying a thumb into an eye socket with one hand, whilst your other hand keeps the muzzle of your assailants weapon away from your body comes to mind, your choice.
This has been a very nice exchange of ideas, and a lot of experienced Instructors use historical data to validate their training methods, a good valid path.
Physics dictate results really. The pistol, weight and ergonomics, plus the holster, in terms of removing this object (a gun) from it's resting place, concealed on your body, It is hard to time this exercise in a gun fight! Other factors are on your mind!
But we can test this action on a range,an electronic timer works.
Knowing that when a bullet leaves the muzzle, it's trajectory will be in an ever widening path, till it hits something, or some body.
The fastest way to achieve hits is to go as close to a straight line as possible, from holster to trigger press, so up lift pistol till it clears forward lip of holster (good idea to have a lowered lip, a cut away) at this time the pistol is pointed at it's destination, and punched straight at the target, if going to a two handed hold, that second hand is contacted, during that line following, gripped tightly, and helps in the forward trajectory of the pistol, the shot breaks at the end of that stroke, or close to that point.
The distance from muzzle to target dictates that target. Rough numbers follow, 6ft, nose, 15ft upper central chest.
And remember the rule, the quickest time /distance, from A to B, is a straight line. Less than 6ft, your hands move quicker going forward, than down to your belt and back. So grabbing a gun and going hands on might be the way to go, burying a thumb into an eye socket with one hand, whilst your other hand keeps the muzzle of your assailants weapon away from your body comes to mind, your choice.