It depends on the gun. Make it an aluminum framed gun with bells and whistles like CCO size, dehorned for carry, checkered forestrap and msh, carry cuts, flush cut barrel, upgraded sights, etc. and you have a DW Valkyrie which is $1,730 at Buds. Now, compare that to a Bill Wilson Carry at $3.200. Whether either one is worth the price is a personal decision.
Colt v. Dan Wesson
- Thread starter BarryLee
- Start date
I have a DW Guardian and a Colt XSE Commander, both in 38 Super. For reasons I can't explain, in shooting both, I like the Colt, but I love the DW. The DW just seems to be a better gun, again, for reasons I can't explain. The DW seems to be more of a custom gun than a production gun. The DW cost me about $400 more than the Colt XSE, and I do not regret spending the extra coin. It also took me about 3 years to find a dealer with a DW, in any caliber, for sale in the Houston area.
You probably will be well served by either the Colt or the DW.
You probably will be well served by either the Colt or the DW.
I have ample experience with both, frankly, the D.W. Heritage .45 ACP is better then any 1911 currently in the Colt stable, including the souped up Marine Corps version of the Rail Gun! The D.W.'s all come with Kart match barrels, or at least they used to, the parts are all forged and then hand fitted to the particular 1911 they are intended, there is not a single MIM part on any D.W. pistol!
The Heritage at an MSRP of around $1400.00(you should be able to get one around $1.000 - $1.100)is the least expensive pistol in the D.W. stable, but it is by no means cheap, you'll find zero play between the slide and frame, while it absolutely locks up rock solid, and it shows in the accuracy at the 25 yard line.
By way of comparison I recently added a Colt's Wiley Clapp Lightweight Commander to my collection, its supposed to be a high end production model, and it has an MSRP of $1400.00(down from $1500.00 at one time)and its fit and finish are typical Colt's, lousy and worse, I can shake the gun from side to side and the slide easily slaps against the frame as I do so, it has to my knowledge at least 5 MIM parts. The Colt has cache because of its storied name, but the D.W. is a far superior example of the 1911, and if you are intending on shooting the gun regularly, or carrying it, as far as I am concerned its a no-brainer, go with the Heritage!
The Heritage at an MSRP of around $1400.00(you should be able to get one around $1.000 - $1.100)is the least expensive pistol in the D.W. stable, but it is by no means cheap, you'll find zero play between the slide and frame, while it absolutely locks up rock solid, and it shows in the accuracy at the 25 yard line.
By way of comparison I recently added a Colt's Wiley Clapp Lightweight Commander to my collection, its supposed to be a high end production model, and it has an MSRP of $1400.00(down from $1500.00 at one time)and its fit and finish are typical Colt's, lousy and worse, I can shake the gun from side to side and the slide easily slaps against the frame as I do so, it has to my knowledge at least 5 MIM parts. The Colt has cache because of its storied name, but the D.W. is a far superior example of the 1911, and if you are intending on shooting the gun regularly, or carrying it, as far as I am concerned its a no-brainer, go with the Heritage!
I agree that the Heritage is a better buy and have said so many times in this and other threads but you are posting some info some of which is misleading and other parts of which are simply false. I do not think you intend to deceive people or mislead them but in the end some of your content does.
They are not Kart Barrels in DW guns they are made by DW and have been for 12 + years. Early guns had Jarvis barrels. They never used Kart.
The parts are assembled they are not hand fit by Dan Wesson. They are a production gun. What you are describing is not what happens. There is no MIM in the current guns but older versions have cast parts and even cast frames. Current guns are all forged and tooled steel. DW is a very good production 1911 which is very close to a semi-custom small format production gun, i.e. Les Baer,Ed Brown & Wilson, but they are not at the same level. Their volume is much higher. Their hands on time and "fitting" of the gun is no where near these smaller semi-custom production guns. Don't confuse them. They may be more hands on then Colt and I think they are but they are not hand fit guns.
Good MIM is not an issue. Colt uses good MIM and has for years. I am not a fan of MIM parts and often swap them out but like I said Colt uses quality MIM and has for ever.
Fit and finish on a DW is better IMHO but Colt has gotten better at this in the last few years. Their new CNC machines are turning out great production pistols with proper specs. I have not held a recent production Colt that I would consider a rattle trap not to say yours is not. That used to be the case. There was a time I would not buy a Colt sight unseen unless it was a trusted dealer because you could open up 5 boxes and see 5 different levels of fit and finish.
Another point is that people talk ad nauseam about slide fit on a 1911 as if it it the end all be all of the platform. People love to take pics of the back of their slide showing how tight it is and how accurate it will be etc... in realty slide to frame is only about 10% give or take of what makes a 1911 accurate. If you are a good enough shooter to need that 10% you are not buying a Colt or a DW IMHO.
So I agree get the Heritage but not for many of the reasons you have suggested. I personally think Colt is making great guns and I have a NIB stock 80 series I am planning on using for a base gun as soon as Mr Harrison calls me and tells me my name is next in line. If Colt was such a bad gun guys like Harrison, Yost, Burton, Williams, Laughridge, Garthwaite, Christiansen etc... would not recommend them as base guns for $3000+ custom guns.
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If I wanted stainless , I would get a Heritage . If I wanted blued , I would get a 70 series Colt .
I just bought a 70 series and it is very nice . I also have a Pointman 9 that I like a lot . If I had to get rid of one , it would be a hard decision , but I would keep the Colt .
I just bought a 70 series and it is very nice . I also have a Pointman 9 that I like a lot . If I had to get rid of one , it would be a hard decision , but I would keep the Colt .
claydoctor
New member
I would have to disagree with WVsig in at least one regard . I own two Dan Wessons and have handled at least ten to fifteen more . You do not get the consistently excellent triggers I have found in all DW's by merely assembling them . Someone is spending some time on those triggers i.e. they are fitted . Also , one cannot judge DW's based on their experience with the CZ pistols . They are two different animals . I believe the CZ's still come from Europe , while the DW's are manufactured in New York . I have bought several Colts over the last few years and while I am happy with them , I do not think the build quality equals that of my Wessons .
All of my Colts and my one Les Baer have been sent to Alchemy for " improvements " . I have not felt the need to do that with either of the Wessons .
All of my Colts and my one Les Baer have been sent to Alchemy for " improvements " . I have not felt the need to do that with either of the Wessons .
Oh no doubt -- and not at all trying to hide my prejudices. Colt has the most extravagant history of screwups in all of gundom. And you can spin that in a positive manner if it suits you, afterall, they are STILL alive and even STILL to this day produce very good guns most of the time. To be able to do so after a laundry list of tripping over themselves is a testament to their brand and extreme power of that cool logo, pop culture and how history chooses to remember Colt.
I jumped in the thread in response to JD Berg's post that read to me as if Colt "deserves" us in the buying public tossing money to try and keep them afloat.
I am not saying Colt deserves to rot in hell and we should gather to stomp on their grave, but they don't deserve sympathy money either. If their pistol was a better buy than a Dan Wesson than 95% of the responses might reflect that. (they don't)
My 2010 build Delta Elite was the answer (on a whim) to a childhood dream but yet it wasn't at all good enough to stay. For $1000 before shipping, I ended up with an icon that ran and was accurate. However, it had a long list of disappointments. Plastic guide rod, plastic MSH, lousy trigger, old school (no beavertail) grip safety that chewed my hand and wouldn't reliably disable (likely due to arched MSH), cheap-feeling grips and to top it off... seriously lacked case head support in 10mm, which is just a no-go for that round.
It was gorgeous but it didn't deliver at it's price point.
So yes, I have my prejudices, and enjoy two of my three OTHER Colt handguns, but I think that throwing sympathy money at Colt is like re-arranging Titanic deck chairs. Buying a new Colt 1911 for one of many reasons? I totally get that. (nothing I want, but...) But the idea that we should rally and buy Colt to help save Colt? May as well hand a bum $10 outside the liquor store when he claims he needs to have his suit dry-cleaned for an upcoming job interview.
I jumped in the thread in response to JD Berg's post that read to me as if Colt "deserves" us in the buying public tossing money to try and keep them afloat.
I am not saying Colt deserves to rot in hell and we should gather to stomp on their grave, but they don't deserve sympathy money either. If their pistol was a better buy than a Dan Wesson than 95% of the responses might reflect that. (they don't)
My 2010 build Delta Elite was the answer (on a whim) to a childhood dream but yet it wasn't at all good enough to stay. For $1000 before shipping, I ended up with an icon that ran and was accurate. However, it had a long list of disappointments. Plastic guide rod, plastic MSH, lousy trigger, old school (no beavertail) grip safety that chewed my hand and wouldn't reliably disable (likely due to arched MSH), cheap-feeling grips and to top it off... seriously lacked case head support in 10mm, which is just a no-go for that round.
It was gorgeous but it didn't deliver at it's price point.
So yes, I have my prejudices, and enjoy two of my three OTHER Colt handguns, but I think that throwing sympathy money at Colt is like re-arranging Titanic deck chairs. Buying a new Colt 1911 for one of many reasons? I totally get that. (nothing I want, but...) But the idea that we should rally and buy Colt to help save Colt? May as well hand a bum $10 outside the liquor store when he claims he needs to have his suit dry-cleaned for an upcoming job interview.
Jarvis barrels still equal better then Colt barrels, and not exactly a fau paux on my part, further you step right into the deep poop with your attempt to marginalize the fact that every D.W is hand fit, which is exactly what they are, yet you would diminish this by substituting fit with assembled, then stupidly you sought to incite me with your attempt to imply me dishonest(liar)with highly suggestive and inflammatory wording, such as "misleading, and simply false!" Every D.W. 1911 has been hand fit, only the most "obtuse individual would even attempt to twist hand fit into hand assembled" and think they had scored some kind of gotcha for having done so.
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They are not being hand fitted like a true custom gun. Sorry it is simply not the case. Again this does not make them bad it makes them what they are. Slides and frames are hand lapped and the fire controls are "fitted" to an extent. I would call it lightly tuned. Significantly more than say Colt or SA but but as much as Les Baer, Brown, Wilson or guys like Guncrafters. There is some fitting being done but it at a production gun level.
I guess I will back off the idea that there is no fitting but it is not "fit" to a particular gun. Slides are lapped to a frame. Fire control units are fitted to each other i.e. sear to hammer not necessarily the individual gun. The bushing is not hand fit this is IMHO more important in terms of accuracy then the trigger. Barrel lockup is almost always great. What I disagree with is the idea that these high end production guns are the equal of guns that are hand fit from the ground up.
Severns, he knows more about 1911s then I do LOL, did a great write up in 2010 on the Valor and a few others guns but it is my believe that the volumes at DW have gone up considerably since 2010 and the amount of fitting now is not what it was then. At that time the were much closer to "fitted" guns because their volumes were relatively low. DW as they have grown have had some teething issues. I have seen more reports of problem DWs in the past 3 years than ever in the past. I attribute it to volume more guns in the market place even with the same defect rate still equals more problem guns even if quality has not really changed. IMHO YMMV
What is missing from this discussion is that Dan Wessons CNC machining is excellent. They do not make oversized parts which need to be "fitted" like hard fit guns like Baers. They machine to an extremely tight tolerance which allows them to "assemble" a wonderful gun with limited "fitting". It is the precision of the machining that allows DW to deliver their product at the price point they do. When you are talking about the Heritage guns they are products of great machining. When you move up to the Valor there is more hand "fitting" vs simple assembling. If you go to DWs sight you will see different models claiming different levels of "fitting"
I have been shooting DWs for a long time. I have had a DW CBOB for almost 10 years. I have had and sold an early Valor. I recommend them more often than almost any other 1911 but again they are what they are. IMHO the best value in the 1911 world but not the best 1911.
Sometimes people get really attached to their pistol choice and have a hard time accepting objective statements about them. It is too bad because detailed thoughtful discussions are what make this forum a good place.
Sorry for the thread drift. To the OP get the DW you will be happy even if it was assembled vs fitted. LOL
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Madcap_Magician
New member
The only reason I would buy a Colt over a Dan Wesson would be if the Colt was going to be a base gun for a custom build. For a working gun, Dan Wessons are far superior to the average Colt.
In general, there is no point in arguing about a fact. It is either so or it isn't. Just look it up, or, in this case, call the factory and ask. But first, a definition of hand-fitted vs. hand-assembled would probably be in order. I don't know exactly how the two were meant by the previous posters, but here is what I think is the difference:
Hand assembling involves checking part fit as the assembly progresses, and swapping in better fitting parts where appropriate to improve the fit you end up with. This is how S&W did things before WWII. I have a pre-war K-22 my Great Aunt bought for $36 in 1932. The S&W brochure was still in the box when I got it, and describes S&W's gunsmiths carefully matching parts before they were assembled. I have to say, it is the smoothest DA revolver I own and has the cleanest single-action trigger break of any of them. It is superbly accurate when I have the right glasses on to see the little tiny sights they made for target shooting back then. So, hand assembly can result in a very good gun. How good just depends on the skills of the persons doing the work. No surprise there.
Hand fitting, to me, involves changing dimensions of parts. Even if it is just stoning a sear, that is fitting because it is improving how well parts fit together by altering them. My Series '70 Goldcup started out as a rattletrap and when I finished the hand fitting work, it shot the 25 yard group below from a rest. This was using the original Colt N.M. barrel. Slugging proved the muzzle of that barrel was 0.0005" out of round, but it must have been pretty evenly out of round to shoot as it did.
The mount for the Aimpoint sight used to shoot that target was a frame mount that replaced the left grip panel. This is the one situation where slide and frame fit is critical to accuracy because the sight is then registering on the frame rather than the slide, allowing any slop in slide and frame fit to affect POI. When the sights are on the slide, as is more usual, then the fit of the barrel to the slide alone pretty much takes care of business. When sights are on the slide, I was taught slide and frame fit contributed only about 5% to the overall accuracy improvement possible. However, my teacher was also of the opinion that it improved cycling reliability, provided the gun was not going to be packed with dirt or sand (e.g., you didn't intend to re-fight WWI).
That was all based on the very loosest of guns as the base gun starting point. Today, with CNC machined slides and frames, the slide and frame fits are typically enough better out of the box that I think it would be challenge to find an improvement caused by slide and frame fitting. But that's just a surmise. For someone with a good, consistent machine rest setup and a number of guns to work on, it would be an interesting before and after experiment to conduct.
Hand assembling involves checking part fit as the assembly progresses, and swapping in better fitting parts where appropriate to improve the fit you end up with. This is how S&W did things before WWII. I have a pre-war K-22 my Great Aunt bought for $36 in 1932. The S&W brochure was still in the box when I got it, and describes S&W's gunsmiths carefully matching parts before they were assembled. I have to say, it is the smoothest DA revolver I own and has the cleanest single-action trigger break of any of them. It is superbly accurate when I have the right glasses on to see the little tiny sights they made for target shooting back then. So, hand assembly can result in a very good gun. How good just depends on the skills of the persons doing the work. No surprise there.
Hand fitting, to me, involves changing dimensions of parts. Even if it is just stoning a sear, that is fitting because it is improving how well parts fit together by altering them. My Series '70 Goldcup started out as a rattletrap and when I finished the hand fitting work, it shot the 25 yard group below from a rest. This was using the original Colt N.M. barrel. Slugging proved the muzzle of that barrel was 0.0005" out of round, but it must have been pretty evenly out of round to shoot as it did.
The mount for the Aimpoint sight used to shoot that target was a frame mount that replaced the left grip panel. This is the one situation where slide and frame fit is critical to accuracy because the sight is then registering on the frame rather than the slide, allowing any slop in slide and frame fit to affect POI. When the sights are on the slide, as is more usual, then the fit of the barrel to the slide alone pretty much takes care of business. When sights are on the slide, I was taught slide and frame fit contributed only about 5% to the overall accuracy improvement possible. However, my teacher was also of the opinion that it improved cycling reliability, provided the gun was not going to be packed with dirt or sand (e.g., you didn't intend to re-fight WWI).
That was all based on the very loosest of guns as the base gun starting point. Today, with CNC machined slides and frames, the slide and frame fits are typically enough better out of the box that I think it would be challenge to find an improvement caused by slide and frame fitting. But that's just a surmise. For someone with a good, consistent machine rest setup and a number of guns to work on, it would be an interesting before and after experiment to conduct.
Colt and DW do not sell at the same price point.
Colt makes very good factory production guns.
DW is a subdivision of CZ. It produces semi custom guns at a higher price point. They have better fit and finish over the Colt and are generally more accurate by a small bit.
The comparison between a $800. Colt and a $1300. DW is not an exact comparison.
However if the features and cut of the DW don't work for a person then there is no point to the extra cash.
The Colt can be built to ones taste and preferences.
tipoc
Colt makes very good factory production guns.
DW is a subdivision of CZ. It produces semi custom guns at a higher price point. They have better fit and finish over the Colt and are generally more accurate by a small bit.
The comparison between a $800. Colt and a $1300. DW is not an exact comparison.
However if the features and cut of the DW don't work for a person then there is no point to the extra cash.
The Colt can be built to ones taste and preferences.
tipoc
Actually a Colt XSE and Dan Wesson Heritage do retail within a couple of hundred dollars of each other. So, it seemed like a reasonable comparison even thought it isn’t an exact dollar for dollar thing. I was just thinking if I spent a few dollars more I might get a somewhat better gun.
It does seem like the general consensus is that the DW is probably worth the extra money.
Dan Wessons are more than "hand assembled" but certainly not full custom. When responding to a poster in another forum who loved the fit and finish of the gun but complained about the take-up in the trigger and that the point of aim/impact were off for him. the manager of the manufacturing unit wore:
The biggest problem I have read about with Dan Wessons is a run of stainless steel Heritages where the slides got "stuck." I had this happen to my CBOB years ago. The fix is simple and takes about five minutes. Use a rubber mallet if necessary to get the slide off and then use a little polishing compound with a rag on the rails.
Note: the manager was probably talking about DW's top of the line Valor at around $2,000 (MSRP). The Heritage will still use the same quality parts but the finish on the Heritage may not be what it is on the Valor.
The biggest problem I have read about with Dan Wessons is a run of stainless steel Heritages where the slides got "stuck." I had this happen to my CBOB years ago. The fix is simple and takes about five minutes. Use a rubber mallet if necessary to get the slide off and then use a little polishing compound with a rag on the rails.
Note: the manager was probably talking about DW's top of the line Valor at around $2,000 (MSRP). The Heritage will still use the same quality parts but the finish on the Heritage may not be what it is on the Valor.
KY you are right that when you are talking about the Valor there is a lot more hand work fitting vs say the heritage. That is sort of the point I was trying to make but clearly did not do a good job of. The Valor gets the most attention and therefore costs the most they are very close to a semi-custom gun but the Heritage is not. It is a production gun.
The problem is not just with a run of stainless steel Heritages.
It has been a regular problem with all the uncoated DWs for several years. Not at all am I trying to suggest that DWs aren't a great choice at the price point but many are seriously delusional about the amount of real hand fitting they receive. If a galled up DW is a weekly thread on several forums, which it is, that's called a clue that they need much more "hand fitting". Les Baer doesn't offer their 1.5" at 50 yard guarantee on any of the SS models they sell, with good reason.