Colt quality control

[dahermit]

Over the years I have seen many posts wherein someone asks which brand of 1911 they should buy. Very often, they are told by someone that to the effect of "you can't go wrong with a Colt".

Given my experiences with the modest number of Colt 1911's I have owned and my industrial background relative to quality control, I react with incredulousness.

Back in the seventies I bought a Mark IV Government Model and a blued Combat Commander in .38 Super, and A blued Combat Commander in .45 ACP. The Government Model gave me some problems that turned out to be a matter of too little tension (not enough bend) in the extractor which I may have caused myself (being young and stupid) by dropping a round into the chamber and releasing the slide, expecting the extractor to jump over the rim (yeah, I know). However, I am not sure I did that, but after learning how to put more bend in the extractor, the gun shot fine as did the Colt Combat Commander in .45 ACP.

The .38 Super was a different matter. Shooting it resulted in battered recoil lugs. A gunsmith told me after examining it, that the recoil lug recesses in the slide were milled out of spec and I needed to replace the slide and barrel. The problem was that there were no .38 Super Colt Commander slides to be had so I ended up with a Colt Commander slide marked "9mm" instead of .38 Super. The gun has not given me any problems since it became a "FrankenColt".
I added better sights, better trigger, et. al. and it has become a favorite of mine, despite the mismatched parts.

A few years ago, I bought a new XSE Colt Combat Commander in .45 ACP. It was a problem from the beginning. Jammed frequently. Playing with it, I discovered that the recoil spring was very much underpowered. It was so underpowered that I cannot imagine how anyone who presumably assembled many guns each and worked the slide, would not have noticed that the spring was way too weak. After replacing the recoil spring, another problem became apparent...the firing pin spring was so weak that the firing pin stop would drop down and tie-up the gun when firing. After replacing that spring also, the gun become a reliable shooter.

When I bought the gun from my local gun store, I had not paid much attention to the grips. When I got around to giving them a close look, I was astounded at the very poor checkering...many instances of poor spacing. Certainly the person doing the checkering was aware he/she was screwing the checkering job up...begging the question, why were they not scrapped? Likewise, the person at Colt assembling the gun most certainly should have rejected them. In all the quality control in regard to my gun was abdominal.

To sum, just because it is a Colt rather than some other brand of 1911, does not mean you are not going to run into very poor quality control...if you can even call it that.

I won't even get into the fact that they assembled it with a plastic (ugh!) mainspring housing (which I replaced with a stainless steel flat housing).

 

[DaleA]

Captain Obvious here with my own pet theory...the management folk of some companies don't pay attention to what the 'little people' doing the work are actually doing.

If quality goes down (if they notice it) they might hire a consultant to come in and give motivational talks to the afore mentioned 'little people'. Problem solved! Consultant goes away and things go back to 'normal' crappy quality.

Just a theory of mine.

 

[dahermit]

Captain Obvious here with my own pet theory...the management folk of some companies don't pay attention to what the 'little people' doing the work are actually doing.

If quality goes down (if they notice it) they might hire a consultant to come in and give motivational talks to the afore mentioned 'little people'. Problem solved! Consultant goes away and things go back to 'normal' crappy quality.

Just a theory of mine.

Would you say that the problem could be solved by instituting a "theory X" (See: McGregor) management style then?

 

[RickB]

I've bought a half-dozen Colts, and did have to return one for repair, but they repaired the (bought used) gun at no cost to me.
No complaints.

 

[Mosin44az]

I had a Combat Commander XSE for a number of years, and though it worked fine, I remember being surprised at how many blemishes it had on the finish, especially for a not-cheap gun.

For years I used Nelson Ford for a gunsmith ( American Handgunner Top 100), and he spoke highly of Colt and the quality of their parts including their mainsprings and barrels, compared to brands like Springfield. This was a few years ago, maybe things have changed.

 

[JERRYS.]

I've owned a few Colt 1911s in .45acp and 10mm, none were current made guns in fact they were no newer than 15+ years ago made. while all gun manufactures have the odd ball gun some even worthy of the label Lemon, the Colt revolvers of today seem to have more of their share of issues from what I read on-line.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

dahermit, you didn't say how long ago "a few years" was. Colt did have some quality control issues maybe ten to fifteen years ago. In recent years, since they moved much more of their production to CNC machines, the quality has been significantly better -- and more consistent. The pistol in your photos has the ugly, downswept "duckbill" beavertail, so it's a fairly old model. Colt hasn't used that grip safety for a number of years.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a current production Colt.

 

[dahermit]

dahermit, you didn't say how long ago "a few years" was. Colt did have some quality control issues maybe ten to fifteen years ago. In recent years, since they moved much more of their production to CNC machines, the quality has been significantly better -- and more consistent. The pistol in your photos has the ugly, downswept "duckbill" beavertail, so it's a fairly old model. Colt hasn't used that grip safety for a number of years.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a current production Colt.

The XSE Combat Commander in the picture was purchased about ten years of so ago...I can't be sure exactly. However, the Blued even more problematic .38 Super Combat Commander, with more serious problems (out of spec recoil lug recesses...not a matter of just changing springs), was a 1970's era production.

In all, I have a tendency to hold a grudge...If if were to purchase another 1911 it would likely be a Ruger. I know from experience how aggressive Ruger is about making things right...even if it is more than one year-old, and if not even the original purchaser. Whereas Colt's warranty is one year to the original purchaser. Nope...don't think I will be buying anymore Colts.


Addendum: I just remembered another Colt 1911 I had...an Officer's Model with that little projection on the barrel bushing. I did not have it long...I sold it after putting in an aftermarket barrel bushing to preclude the little nib on the original from shearing off. I didn't shoot it much so I sold it, but admittedly had no problems with it.

 

[DaleA]

Would you say that the problem could be solved by instituting a "theory X" (See: McGregor) management style then?

Wow, had to go to the Googles to find out what "theory X" is:

Theory X managers are likely to believe that employees are lazy, fear-motivated, and in need of constant direction.

Nah. Blanket statements seldom do much good (IMhO).

My expertise in management style comes mostly from reading the cartoon strip Dilbert.

It seems to me "quality" and "high standards" can be achieved if workers, management, heck everybody, agree what the standards should be and they know how to achieve them.

I'm not going to argue management styles and theories and models and concepts because I've never run a business and don't have the magic answer to questions of quality. I just think in general that if you don't pay attention to something, like quality, it goes away.

 

[DaleA]

Just another note on this topic.
Dahermit brings up a very interesting issue, one I find fascinating. The ebb and flow of a business. How the business at one time is really on the top of the heap and then slides down and then claws itself up etc. etc.

Colt, Remington, S&W, Winchester... have all been around for a long, long time making firearms (other stuff too, but I'd like to concentrate on the guns stuff).

All these companies have had their high points and low points and I'd find it fascinating if some business/gun guru would put together a book talking about how they reacted to innovations in the firearms industries, how their management practices helped/hurt the companies etc.

One thing I've always found fascinating was how the American companies competed (and won!) firearms contracts in the 1800's in Europe and the rest of the world. I particularly am interested in S&W and their contracts with Russia in the late 1800's.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I'm not going to argue management styles and theories and models and concepts because I've never run a business and don't have the magic answer to questions of quality. I just think in general that if you don't pay attention to something, like quality, it goes away.

Sometimes management doesn't make quality a priority.

Case in point: Para-Ordnance (before they moved to North Carolina and became ParaUSA). For years, Para-Ordnance had a quality control manager. They recruited him from the aerospace industry; he was top shelf, and Para's pistols were pretty much top shelf in terms of quality. His name became known, both to the industry and to customers. When Para initiated their program of doing special runs of pistols for police departments and military units with the department or unit insignia on the guns, they took George out of quality control and sent him on the road as a salesman. And he did well at it.

But ... instead of bringing in another quality control director, they made the production manager the quality control manager. This guy had been "okay" as production manager, but now he had an inherent conflict -- every gun he rejected for quality affected his production numbers. Being the production manager at heart, production won out over quality. Para's quality went down the toilet, they were shipping faulty guns, the warranty repair shop was getting swamped, and their previously stellar reputation earned a huge black eye.

Eventually, they had to fire the production/quality control guy and bring in a new production manager and a new quality control manager. The quality went back up, but it took a long time for their reputation to (mostly) recover.

Most workers can and will do quality work -- as long as they know the management wants quality work. If management just wants to push product out the door without caring about quality, then that's what the workers will do.

 

[dahermit]

Most workers can and will do quality work -- as long as they know the management wants quality work. If management just wants to push product out the door without caring about quality, then that's what the workers will do.

One of the bains of quality parts is the quota and/or piecework system wherein making bad parts pay as much as good parts which results in parts that should be scrapped are kept and counted as output. Punish a worker for producing a bad part, and all of a sudden, all the parts he makes are "good" (within spec.). I have seen that, and worse when I was in industry.

 

[1911_Hardball]

Captain Obvious here with my own pet theory...the management folk of some companies don't pay attention to what the 'little people' doing the work are actually doing.

If quality goes down (if they notice it) they might hire a consultant to come in and give motivational talks to the afore mentioned 'little people'. Problem solved! Consultant goes away and things go back to 'normal' crappy quality.

Just a theory of mine.

In general, manufacturers (not just gun manufacturers, but ALL) no longer have "Quality Control Departments". They figure that's the job of the end consumer.

 

[dahermit]

In general, manufacturers (not just gun manufacturers, but ALL) no longer have "Quality Control Departments". They figure that's the job of the end consumer.

Unfortunately, so it would seem.

 

[JDBerg]

I guess anybody who owned a Ford Pinto back in the day can forgive & forget owning an original rolling dumpster vehicle, & can drive a current model F-150 pickup truck, which is a pretty darned good vehicle by most objective standards.

And anybody who remembers the Colt All American 2000 produced for 2 years back in the early 90’s remembers these as inaccurate and unreliable with possibly the very worst trigger pull on a firearm that one could ever experience. But a Colt 1911 can function as well as any premium brand 1911, if you either get a good one out of the box, or if you have it worked over by a good pistolsmith.

 

[pete2]

I own 3 Colts, 2 1911 and 1 Lt wt Commander. All three functioned right out of the box. I have a DW that functioned, a Citadel that functioned. A SA that functioned. I have a Kimber that had to be repaired, a Ruger CMD that had to be replaced and the replacement had to go back to Ruger, Ruger did a partial repair on it, I finished it. I finally got a CMP 1911 couple months ago, it works. I don't know exactly what this means but the score is 3 for 3 for the Colts. They aren't perfect but did function right out of the box......

 

[shurshot]

My new Colt SAA .45 is perfect, as is the Warranty from Colt. They stand behind their guns. No complaints from me.

Any manufacturer can have a lemon or two slip through. S&W, Remington, Cadillac, Ford, Fred Bear Archery, Cold Steel knives, Samsung, etc., given the numbers they churn out, are bound to have an occasional issue. Most reputable companies will make it right if you politely reach out to them directly instead of trash talking them online.

 

[dahermit]

My new Colt SAA .45 is perfect, as is the Warranty from Colt. They stand behind their guns. No complaints from me.

Any manufacturer can have a lemon or two slip through. S&W, Remington, Cadillac, Ford, Fred Bear Archery, Cold Steel knives, Samsung, etc., given the numbers they churn out, are bound to have an occasional issue. Most reputable companies will make it right if you politely reach out to them directly instead of trash talking them online.

Most reputable companies will make it right if you politely reach out to them directly instead of trash talking them online.

Colt will make it right if you raise the issue with them within one year and you are the original owner. In the instance of my .38 Super, it was years before I discovered the problem. In the instance of my XSE Combat Commander, I did not wish to send the gun back...for something I could fix myself. The main issue I have with them is that the defects were so obvious that they should have been caught by the assembler. As for the poor checkering, I have opted to keep the stocks to show people that Colt is doing a good thing by hiring the handicapped...a blind checkerer. In sum, the issue is not that Colt will make it right, the issue is that it was pi** poor quality control in the first place. Now go away please...you annoy me.

 

[shurshot]

Someone needs more fiber.

"few years ago, I bought a new XSE Colt Combat Commander in .45 ACP. It was a problem from the beginning. Jammed frequently."

You COULD have returned it to Colt, but didn't. Any of the other issues you described with your pistols, if Colt had been contacted within the warranty period, would have sent you a label to return and fix the gun(s). But you didn't contact Colt. That was your choice. Colt can't fix what they are not aware of.

What annoys me, is people who buy something, either wait too long, or decide to fix it themselves, then post in a public forum complaining about the quality control. Yet THEY failed to return the item within the warranty time frame and allow the manufacturer a chance to rectify the situation. Some people like something to complain about. If you don't want to be called out, don't post.

Fiber, it's your friend.

 

[dahermit]

Someone needs more fiber.

"few years ago, I bought a new XSE Colt Combat Commander in .45 ACP. It was a problem from the beginning. Jammed frequently."

You COULD have returned it to Colt, but didn't. Any of the other issues you described with your pistols, if Colt had been contacted within the warranty period, would have sent you a label to return and fix the gun(s). But you didn't contact Colt. That was your choice. Colt can't fix what they are not aware of.

What annoys me, is people who buy something, either wait too long, or decide to fix it themselves, then post in a public forum complaining about the quality control. Yet THEY failed to return the item within the warranty time frame and allow the manufacturer a chance to rectify the situation. Some people like something to complain about. If you don't want to be called out, don't post.

Fiber, it's your friend.

You seemed to have missed the point. My perspective comes from my experience and education relative to quality control in industry. I have a master's degree in Training in Business and Industry. I worked for several manufacturing concerns relative to quality control including Olofsson Corp. (Lansing, MI), who made precision bore machines. I literally wrote the book on the operation and repair to two of their most popular machines. I conducted training sessions with clients of Olofsson machines.
I have graduate school credits relative to quality control.

I also worked for Ossur (Albion, MI), who made artificial knees (Mauch) and ankles for prosthetic limbs. They are (were) a subsidiary of Icercross...one of the major suppliers of mechanical limbs in the world. Their Albion facility had a dedicated dept. for the sole purpose of examining every device before it left the factory (100% testing). Very, very few of Ossur devices ever came back other than to be rebuilt due to time and wear...new, faulty products almost never left the building.


In short, I have adequate credentials relative to my post.

The thesis of my original post was not that Colt would not fix any particular problem with their 1911's but that it would seem obvious to anyone familiar with quality control practices, that they were lacking. The fact that I did not contact Colt in a "timely" matter or that I opted to fix the problem myself, is a moot point in regard to my post. At the risk of redundancy, the problems that became apparent should have never happened in the first place. If you had any credentials in quality control, you may (or may not in your case), understand that.

Two questions for you. What are your credentials relative to industrial quality control?

Do you think having one Colt SAA 45 Colt (but no (apparent) Colt 1911 experience) represent an adequate sample to qualify an opinion of their 1911's?

Someone needs more fiber.

Someone needs to look up "The Dunning-Kruger Effect".