Colt 2nd generation

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Imperato got back to me last night- that previous quote about the frames/nipples/screws/springs/cylinder pins, was his dad's- his email below:

"I can only assume that we have to take his quote as gospel. I believe those parts were made here in the US but how the frames were made I do not know. The market is really becoming very small, insignificant. With the Italian-made spaghetti westerns of the 50's / 60's they (Italians) decided to get into the business. Colt had no interest as they were on the verge of making a ton of M16's for Vietnam. Honestly I think the blackpowder repro market is dead, and I don't forsee anyone tooling up to make better guns. The market calls for $99 imports, that's what most people want to pay."





sounds to me, like the later 2nd Gen Colts had made in USA frames, and those cheap POS import brass frame guns, flooded the market, and ruined it- and drove overall quality down.
 
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Makes my day.
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boy, I'll say...

That reply from from Anthony Imperato.

He doesn't run Ivers Johnson.

He owns/runs the Henry Repeating Arms Co.- the original inventors of the lever action rifle of the 1800's, that Winchesters were later patterned after. All their guns are made in USA- he's putting a picture of my son on their website, opening his new Henry 22 lever action rifle on Christmas Day 2008.

Here's the company logos:

"HENRY RIFLES WILL BE MADE IN AMERICA OR THEY WON'T BE MADE AT ALL"
"Made In America and Priced Right"
"Load On Sunday, Shoot All Week Long"

you won't see any crappy import parts, or soft, low-quality steels in the Henry guns. I suggested they make cap/ball revolvers, because I firmly believe if they made them, they'd sell like hotcakes with this high standard of made in USA quality. It appears the market volume is insufficient, to justify the investment needed to produce cap/ball revolvers in USA.

check this movie out

http://www.henryrepeating.com/videotour_wmv.cfm

if I was going to buy a big bore lever action cowboy gun, it wouldn't be an Italian import- it would be another Henry. This 22 we have, blows away the import stuff- and it only cost $250 at Walmart

http://www.henryrepeating.com/rifles.cfm
 
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Lou Imperato owned the Iver Johnson Co. I believe his son is the owner now. You'll need to tune up your Ouija Board to contact Lou, Mr. Imperato has passed.
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please post the source of this statement of yours, because it's obviously incorrect- not even the same company.
 
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I've heard lots of conflicting storys on the 2nd Colt percussion revolvers (I had two and let them slip through my fingers) and thought this article very interesting.
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I got a few more replies lately- the Colt Factory called me today. They said the Colt 2nd Gen guns are far better made than the Italian replicas. Referred me to an author on the subject who wrote the 2nd Gen Blue Book.

So I called the author, he verified Colt 2nd Gen is a much higher quality gun than the Italian replicas- and he has a 5 sheet internal Colt document, that states the various QC specs on the Colt 2nd Gen.

He could not prove or disprove Dennis Adler's statement, that the frames/nipples/springs/screws/cylinder pins in later 2nd Gen guns, were made in USA by Ivers Johnson.

He did say, 1000's of Italian parts were REFUSED by Colt, and sent back to Uberti and ASM, because they didn't meet spec for the 2nd Gen guns. Some of the specs were:

cylinder to barrel clearance must be .001"-.008" when assembled.
spring on wedge must protrude out other side of barrel slot, when assembled
cylinder pin must be firmly in place in frame- any looseness means rejected
cylinders and barrels must must not have any voids or delineations/lines in it, or casting imperfections

and much more- I intend on getting a copy of the tech sheet for reference, from him

He also stated: all 2nd Gen guns were cast frame, but 1st Gen guns were FORGED FRAMES. I replied in that case, 1st Gen guns from the 1800's are superior to any replicas.

His reply, with laughter, was "WITHOUT A DOUBT"- 1st Gen guns are superior to replicas.

He stated, 2nd Gen guns are superior to 3rd Gen- because overall the quality is better, and 2nd Gen was boxed/sold/lettered by Colt- whereas 3rd Gen was made/sold/shipped outside of Colt, and only licensed by Colt. You can get a good or bad 3rd Gen gun. But all 2nd Gen guns will have a higher standard of quality.

source: he's the author who wrote the 2nd Gen blue book on gun values.

The Colt employee who called me, stated the bluing, material hardness, and case hardening on 2nd Gen guns, is far superior to any Italian replica. He bought a Uberti from Cabela's, just to compare to a 2nd Gen Colt- he said no contest, the 2nd Gen is vastly superior in quality.
 
Captain, thanks for the effort and the very enligntening information but I'm not sure I understand what it means in terms of the BP guns available to us today -- secondary-market 2nd and 3rd Gens, and Italian replicas. Should I throw away my POS NIB 3rd Gens I recently bought? And all my Uberti's? I love them all, regardless of where the parts came from.
 
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Captain, thanks for the effort and the very enligntening information but I'm not sure I understand what it means in terms of the BP guns available to us today -- secondary-market 2nd and 3rd Gens, and Italian replicas. Should I throw away my POS NIB 3rd Gens I recently bought? And all my Uberti's? I love them all, regardless of where the parts came from.
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This info is only to help the OP, and get the information out there- you do as you please, or what suits your tastes and budget.

I'm selling off my Colt open top Italian replicas, with cast frames. The 1860 Army is already sold, the Walker goes tomorrow. No more for me. I'll keep the 1851, 'cuz my dad bought it for me, he passed away in 1998. I'd like to get a Colt 1st Gen or 2nd Gen gun- and preferably a 1st Gen. I'd avoid the 3rd Gen., the experts spoke somewhat spotty about them. I'll keep my 2 Remington imports, because they are topstrap designs and strong guns, and have proven it with full chambers fired repeatedly, one has lasted 22 years. If I buy any more Italian open top Colt patterns, they will be the forged frame Ubertis. I believe Uberti went to the forged frame, to give the market a shot in the arm. There was definitely a quality issue, that needed to be addressed.
 
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:)

Captain, thanks for the effort and the very enligntening information but I'm not sure I understand what it means in terms of the BP guns available to us today -- secondary-market 2nd and 3rd Gens, and Italian replicas. Should I throw away my POS NIB 3rd Gens I recently bought? And all my Uberti's? I love them all, regardless of where the parts came from.
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Wobble.

Buy, collect, and shoot what ever appeals to you, regardless of where, when or who it was made by. And regardless of what anyone else thinks.

I think I'll gou out and buy a couple Brass, ASM .44 cal '51 Navies just to aggravate a few people. :D:D
 
One of those dumb questions

Excellent bit of information gathering-

Just for my own edification when was the
1st generation Colt produced ?
2nd " " ?
3rd " " ?

Without knowing it would seem a 1st generation would be an original wouldn't it? Now that would be rather spendy!!!!!!!!

My Uberti 1860 must be at least 25-30 years old and probably only fired a dozen times. Am getting it tuned, fire blued and parts hardened now- no telling when it will be finished.
Might look into finding a Colt 2nd gen sometime in the future-

Mark
 
The so-called '1st Generation' Colts are the originals, and you need to specify model to determine years of manufacture.

2nd Generation Colts were produced from 1971 to 1982.

3rd Generation Colts were produced from 1994 to 2002.
 
The author of "2nd gen price guide" stated, the 3rd gen Colts were a license only deal- they didn't go through the rigorous Colt QC inspection, that the 2nd Gen Colts had to meet. The bottom line is, the 3rd is not as desireable. The author shoots an 1860 2nd Gen, for the past 30 years, and stated to me on the phone yesterday- the barrel/cylinder/wedge interface is just as tight, as the day he bought it.

Now that's impressive.

When the subject of brass frames came up, both Colt employee and author stated "you don't want to buy brass frame guns"- the Colt employee also had a few choice adjectives that I can't repost here, if you get my drift- both stated in their experience, the brass frames can shoot apart/loose in as few as 20 rounds.

an older fella who's buying my Walker, and has been shooting BP for 40 years now, stated he also had bad experiences with brass frame Remingtons- he said after about 100-150 shots, the frames would stretch and the gun would start malfunctioning, due to cylinder pin misalignment
 
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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FCaptain, thanks for the effort and the very enligntening information but I'm not sure I understand what it means in terms of the BP guns available to us today -- secondary-market 2nd and 3rd Gens, and Italian replicas. Should I throw away my POS NIB 3rd Gens I recently bought? And all my Uberti's? I love them all, regardless of where the parts came from.
Wobble.
Buy, collect, and shoot what ever appeals to you, regardless of where, when or who it was made by. And regardless of what anyone else thinks.
I think I'll gou out and buy a couple Brass, ASM .44 cal '51 Navies just to aggravate a few people.
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Wobble,

Fingers conveniently leaves out a few very important facts- his recommendation assumes a brass frame or soft steel frame gun, is going to shoot forever and never break. The fact is, a cheap gun with inferior metallurgy, doesn't last- they do break- quickly.

Ask Fingers if he'll fix these brass frame guns he's telling you to buy, for free, when they break- parts and labor, free shipping too.

Then ask him how much powder he puts in his "brassers". They can only handle 60% maximum loads- not exactly a great personal protection/hunting load. For that, you need full chambers.

The main reason arms mfrs. use improved materials/processes, it to make a stronger, more durable product- that lasts generations. For some reason Fingers doesn't get that.

I'm not the one blocking posts- so who's really aggravated ? The test of a real man, is being able to keep your composure, when another man confronts you, and disagrees with you. Pressure makes diamonds.

This is a technical discussion, we need to rely on facts, not emotions of what we "like". That's why I contacted Henry Arms, Colt, etc.- we need the facts, straight from the source.

Fingers recommendations on gun options, are akin to telling you, buy a Yugo or Vega if you like it- they start and go, how bad can they be ??...:rolleyes: I'm saying no, don't do that, they are junk and you'll regret it, they have a terrible service history record. They are a lemon.

Buy the best you can afford, not the worst- and do the research first. Then you'll have a gun that lasts for generations. Not a paperweight.

I just bought an 1860 stainless Army for $300. Fingers has my blessings, to buy up all the "1851 brassers" he can afford.:D
 
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Crazy Captain, stop with the personal e-mails. I really don't care to argue who owned what when. I find it nessacary to apply my standard disclaimer.

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Quote MCB
Crazy Captain, stop with the personal e-mails. I really don't care to argue who owned what when. I find it nessacary to apply my standard disclaimer.
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MCB. :D Great disclaimer. Can I plagiarize it??? :D

I've found bliss in the ignore button. Helps keep the blood pressure down and doesnt aggravate the carpal tunnel due to much reduced keystokes in not formulating replies.
 
Crazy Captain wrote:
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the Colt Factory called me today.
What a load!
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Colt Blackpowder rep called me, and then referred me to the author Dennis Russell- who wrote 2nd Gen Price Guide/history

if you don't believe me, contact Mr. Russell
 
Quote MCB
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Crazy Captain, stop with the personal e-mails. I really don't care to argue who owned what when. I find it nessacary to apply my standard disclaimer.
MCB. Great disclaimer. Can I plagiarize it???
I've found bliss in the ignore button. Helps keep the blood pressure down and doesnt aggravate the carpal tunnel due to much reduced keystokes in not formulating replies.
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"nessacary" ?

I pulled this up to quote, the Firing Line forum spell checker went berserk, and started smoking...:D

yes, by all means, we'll take this above post/advice seriously, rather than Anthony Imperato, Val Forgett III, Dennis Russell, or Colt Blackpowder Rep.- any day...

after all, they only MADE the guns, and compiled the documentation...:rolleyes:

you actually...did...uh...er...wait a minute...nothing ?? well, you fellas "learned" them a thing or two anyway, didntcha.. (laughter...)

NOT !!!:D:D
 
Captain, not sure where the dissertation on brass guns came from but I have no brass guns, don't want any, and will never buy one. I think Fingers was making a little joke.:D

In a review of my copy of "Colt Blackpowder Reproductions and Replicas" by Dennis Adler, there are no 2nd Gen or 3rd Gen BP Colts with brass frames unless they were 3rd Gens manufactured between 1995 and 2002, which are not covered by the book. My own 3rd Gens are steel. I also don't think Uberti currently makes any brass frame guns either, although some other Italian companies do. Some, however, are true reproductions of Confederate copies originally made with brass.
 
Captain, not sure where the dissertation on brass guns came from but I have no brass guns, don't want any, and will never buy one. I think Fingers was making a little joke.

In a review of my copy of "Colt Blackpowder Reproductions and Replicas" by Dennis Adler, there are no 2nd Gen or 3rd Gen BP Colts with brass frames unless they were 3rd Gens manufactured between 1995 and 2002, which are not covered by the book. My own 3rd Gens are steel. I also don't think Uberti currently makes any brass frame guns either, although some other Italian companies do. Some, however, are true reproductions of Confederate copies originally made with brass.
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Dunno what drivel the Capt. is spoutin now but Colt didn't make any brass frames. Brass frames are fine if you know their limitations. A .36 in a brass frame will handle max loads fine but a .44 in a brass frame won't. Probably one reason .44's were never offered in a brass frame.
 
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