Bought an old Colt 45 acp revolver at a shop the other day. It was in great shape and it felt right in my hand. And the price was only $199. Anyway, I took it home and after taking off the grip I noticed I purchased a Army Model 1917! Then I noticed the United States Property stamp under the ejector rod. The original grips were replaced with Pachmyrs and the lanyard ring is missing. Here’s my question: what’s the Eagle Head and S20 mark above the cylinder release mean? Also, did I get a good deal on this revolver? What's a good book for info and a good resource for grips.
Colt 1917 questions, please help
- Thread starter Icopy
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
Oh yeah, $199 for a Colt or a Smith & Wesson Model 1917 is a very good price.
Dfariswheel
New member
The eagle head and S20 is an ordinance acceptance mark. If it's in good shape, and you only paid $200.00, you stole it.
Last time I looked, Gun Parts had lanyard loops, and sometimes original type wood grips.
Last time I looked, Gun Parts had lanyard loops, and sometimes original type wood grips.
Well guys, I think I did steal it. The gun has the original blue/black finish with only holster wear around the barrel, and the cylinder. The front and back strap have some wear from handling. I'd say the bluing is about 70 percent. The gun has a few dings as would any 70 plus year old gun. The frame and side plate have matching numbers. The yoke is off by one number. The Colt prancing pony is on the frame and the appropriate H is on the frame, barrel, cylinder, and yoke. The rifling is strong. I learned that the Eagle head is a Springfield Armory acceptance stamp. Couldn't find out what the S20 means. I'm sure the S stands for Springfield Armory. Why is Sprinfield stamping Colt products? The serial number is 127xxx. So it was made around 1917 to 1918.
One strange thing. The serial number on the butt does not match any other numbers. Could those other numbers be part numbers? Or could this be a WWII rebuild? Also, there is an upper case G stamped on the grip frame. Couldn't find out what it means. Can anyone recommend a book that goes in depth regarding this pistol?
I'm having my smith look it over this weekend and test fire it. I'll let you guys know how it shoots. Any other input would be helpful.
One strange thing. The serial number on the butt does not match any other numbers. Could those other numbers be part numbers? Or could this be a WWII rebuild? Also, there is an upper case G stamped on the grip frame. Couldn't find out what it means. Can anyone recommend a book that goes in depth regarding this pistol?
I'm having my smith look it over this weekend and test fire it. I'll let you guys know how it shoots. Any other input would be helpful.
Hand_Rifle_Guy
New member
The number on the butt is a govt. property i.d. IIRC, and has nothing to do with the serial number.
Some of the really early Colts had through-bored cylinders. That is, they lack a headspacing step and must be run with moon clips or not at all.
Some of the later-built guns were rushed out without initial regulation of the fixed sights, so it might want some tuning.
The barrel will hold up longer with lead, rather than jacketed, bullets.
Since you stole it, you better send it to me to absolve you of any guilt. It won't get lonely with the rest of my .45 ACP revolvers to keep it company.
Some of the really early Colts had through-bored cylinders. That is, they lack a headspacing step and must be run with moon clips or not at all.
Some of the later-built guns were rushed out without initial regulation of the fixed sights, so it might want some tuning.
The barrel will hold up longer with lead, rather than jacketed, bullets.
Since you stole it, you better send it to me to absolve you of any guilt. It won't get lonely with the rest of my .45 ACP revolvers to keep it company.
Icopy,
I purchased the same kind'a Colt way back in 1970, from a local
dealer selling out of his house. Mine was "dolled up" a bit, with
the ejector rod, trigger, and hammer being gold plated.
It wore
a set of "bone handle" grips, and looked rather fancy.
This
gun had seen a considerable amount of use; but I still gave the
asking price of $200.00 for it.
With it's 5-1/2" barrel and
fixed sight's, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the damn
thing; therefore I ended up selling it to a friend who wanted it
badly.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.
I purchased the same kind'a Colt way back in 1970, from a local
dealer selling out of his house. Mine was "dolled up" a bit, with
the ejector rod, trigger, and hammer being gold plated.
It worea set of "bone handle" grips, and looked rather fancy.
Thisgun had seen a considerable amount of use; but I still gave the
asking price of $200.00 for it.
With it's 5-1/2" barrel andfixed sight's, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the damn
thing; therefore I ended up selling it to a friend who wanted it
badly.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.
hmmmmmm.... Mine has all matching numbers and was rebluded in the 50's. Its us property marked and I don't recall an eagle stamp or anything like that. I'll look again just to be sure. MANY of these were sold off through DCM and to foreign gov'ts.
My understanding was that in 1917 the army oredered something like 175,000 from Colt and 150,000 from SW. The serial number IS the one on the grip NOT the one on the "numbered parts". (at least thats what the dealer wrote down on my bill of sale) Where did you get your date of manufacture?
I know both were issued in WW2, esp to armored troops.
Note: Ive seen data that suggested not ALL 1917's had the lanyard loop attached, since it was rarely used.
If you have a Springfield proof.. that suggests it was reworked by Springfield Armory later, as I have seen no records of Colt New Service models being made there.
My understanding was that in 1917 the army oredered something like 175,000 from Colt and 150,000 from SW. The serial number IS the one on the grip NOT the one on the "numbered parts". (at least thats what the dealer wrote down on my bill of sale) Where did you get your date of manufacture?
I know both were issued in WW2, esp to armored troops.
Note: Ive seen data that suggested not ALL 1917's had the lanyard loop attached, since it was rarely used.
If you have a Springfield proof.. that suggests it was reworked by Springfield Armory later, as I have seen no records of Colt New Service models being made there.
Dr. Rob -- I'm getting conflicting info for the date of manufacture. In a book strictly about Colt firearms, the author writes that the number on the bottom of the butt is a government number not a serial number, as a member of this forum wrote earlier. If I went by the butt number, the gun was made in 1917. If I go by the other numbers, the gun was made in 1920. I got the Springfield stamp info and the date of manufacture from a book called "Gunmarks." For the Springfield stamp, the author writes that the Eagle Head stamp was a mark used by Springfield Armory that they put on 1911 Government models. It is the only mark that would indicate a Springfield rebuilt, if that is indeed was it is. All other marks are Colt, right down to the prancing pony. Last night I put some 45 shells in the cylinder without moon clips. The revolver functioned fine as there is a ridge in the cylinder that will allow the round to stay put. However, the rounds need to be ejected by hand because there is no rim for the ejector star to catch on. So if the gun was indeed made in 1917 when moon clips were absolutely needed to fire, it was update later in its military career. This would explain the differences between numbers on the yoke versus the frame and sideplate. I'm not sure if the gun was ever reblued. But you may be right about the lanyard ring never being installed. I couldn't find any wear marks that would indicate that the lanyard pin was ever installed. Man, I am fun learning about this piece. Thanks for all your help. Keep the info coming.
This is a picture of my grandad's service revolver, an S&W 1917. I know he carried it as an officer in the USAAC in WWII. He might have carried it as an officer in WWI (served in both world wars, lucky guy...). It is blued but was never reparkerized. It shows some holster wear and the bluing in general was probably effected by the humidity where he was in WWII (Burma). There is no rust, however, and it still shoots well.
Attachments
There is a slight misunderstanding about the change in cylinder walls to allow firing without half moon clips.
COLT produced approximately 150,000 1917's. The first 50,000 had the cylinders "straight bored" and thus half moon clips were mandatory. The balance were produced with chamber stops as were all the Smith & Wessons---this shelf or shoulder simply allowed the case to headspace on the case lip. (Mind you, this is still no optimal solution as the cases are still a pain to extract---but in a military scenario, they COULD be fired with or without the clips.)
Total combined production of COLT and S&W was around 325,000.
There just ain't noway nohow to fire a rimless case without the clip and extract---if you want to fire the weapon without half moon or full moon or quarter moon clips, you need to buy the rather pricey and fairly hard to find 45 AUTO RIM cartridges which have a super thick rim to take up the space of the moon clips.
I don't believe these were produced without lanyard loops in the 1917 configuration though undeniably many loops were removed for whatever purpose and there were similar commercial versions sans loop.
COLT produced approximately 150,000 1917's. The first 50,000 had the cylinders "straight bored" and thus half moon clips were mandatory. The balance were produced with chamber stops as were all the Smith & Wessons---this shelf or shoulder simply allowed the case to headspace on the case lip. (Mind you, this is still no optimal solution as the cases are still a pain to extract---but in a military scenario, they COULD be fired with or without the clips.)
Total combined production of COLT and S&W was around 325,000.
There just ain't noway nohow to fire a rimless case without the clip and extract---if you want to fire the weapon without half moon or full moon or quarter moon clips, you need to buy the rather pricey and fairly hard to find 45 AUTO RIM cartridges which have a super thick rim to take up the space of the moon clips.
I don't believe these were produced without lanyard loops in the 1917 configuration though undeniably many loops were removed for whatever purpose and there were similar commercial versions sans loop.
Dfariswheel
New member
I just checked an old NRA publication about U.S. pistols. The number on the butt is the serial number. The other numbers are assembly numbers.
Serial Number is on the butt. Should be no confusion in reputable references.
Once upon a time it was pretty standard. Common use of pistol stocks that covered the butt caused problems in reading/verifying SN's and the factories shifted SN placement to the frame where we see it commonly today.
Once upon a time it was pretty standard. Common use of pistol stocks that covered the butt caused problems in reading/verifying SN's and the factories shifted SN placement to the frame where we see it commonly today.
For the S&W Model 1917, the butt number is the serial number and the number on the crane and frame at the crane is the assembly number.
For Colt, the serial number (in the New Service series) is on the frame at the crane and the number on the butt is the military serial number which is in its own Model 1917 series.
(Sounds vaguely like an old Danny Kaye routine, doesn't it?)
This was simply a continuation of each company's commercial numbering practice, except for the Colt butt numbers.
HTH
Jim
For Colt, the serial number (in the New Service series) is on the frame at the crane and the number on the butt is the military serial number which is in its own Model 1917 series.
(Sounds vaguely like an old Danny Kaye routine, doesn't it?)
This was simply a continuation of each company's commercial numbering practice, except for the Colt butt numbers.
HTH
Jim
Bill Adair
New member
Icopy,
Starline Brass will soon be available in 45 Auto Rim, according to a note on their new products page.
http://www.starlinebrass.com/
Give them a call. It may already be available.
Bill
Starline Brass will soon be available in 45 Auto Rim, according to a note on their new products page.
http://www.starlinebrass.com/
Give them a call. It may already be available.
Bill