Colt 1911 vs Beretta 92fs, why the fight?
- Thread starter AAChang
- Start date
AAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGG!!!!! 
Okay, here are the three breakage areas:
1. On some early M9s the thin bridge of metal on the alloy frame just above the trigger bar cracked. It didn't impair function, but Beretta made a design change and stress-relieved the area to prevent further trouble.
2. The locking block proved prone to breakage. Usually this happened on guns with silencers attached, as it put weight on the front end of the barrel and stressed the block. I'm not aware of any LB breakages in normal use. Beretta since put stress-relieving corners in the block to reduce the possibility of breakage. LB breakage is NOT what causes the slide to fly off!
3. On some M9s in military use the rear half of the slide broke off right at the locking block cutouts in the slide, at the sharp corners. I'm not aware of any fatalities either, but I did read that the injuries required hospitalization (most likely broken noses or jaws). The official blame was placed on a combination of too much +P+ subgun ammo filtering into the M9 ammo supply, and improper metallurgical controls in some batches of US-made M9s.
Personally, I don't care about any of this because ANY gun will break if abused or stressed. Slides sometimes cracked on military 1911s, as well as the frames. Fortunately, the cracks never resulted in catastrophic failure of those weapons to my knowledge. The 1911 is prone mostly to small parts breakage (barrel link, sear, barrel bushing), which is comparatively minor.
Okay, here are the three breakage areas:
1. On some early M9s the thin bridge of metal on the alloy frame just above the trigger bar cracked. It didn't impair function, but Beretta made a design change and stress-relieved the area to prevent further trouble.
2. The locking block proved prone to breakage. Usually this happened on guns with silencers attached, as it put weight on the front end of the barrel and stressed the block. I'm not aware of any LB breakages in normal use. Beretta since put stress-relieving corners in the block to reduce the possibility of breakage. LB breakage is NOT what causes the slide to fly off!
3. On some M9s in military use the rear half of the slide broke off right at the locking block cutouts in the slide, at the sharp corners. I'm not aware of any fatalities either, but I did read that the injuries required hospitalization (most likely broken noses or jaws). The official blame was placed on a combination of too much +P+ subgun ammo filtering into the M9 ammo supply, and improper metallurgical controls in some batches of US-made M9s.
Personally, I don't care about any of this because ANY gun will break if abused or stressed. Slides sometimes cracked on military 1911s, as well as the frames. Fortunately, the cracks never resulted in catastrophic failure of those weapons to my knowledge. The 1911 is prone mostly to small parts breakage (barrel link, sear, barrel bushing), which is comparatively minor.
CastleBravo
New member
The URL to *my* site you are looking for is:
http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/m9.html
I reviewed the M9 pistols I was issued in the Army and they got 3/5 stars for flaky reliability and assorted other performance issues that I actually saw first hand. I've never seen any evidence of death or near-fatal injuring from M9 slides whacking people in the head. An actual reference to actual evidence of people being killed by a catastrophic failure of an M9 would be nice to know, but I haven't seen it yet... certainly not on this thread.
http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/m9.html
I reviewed the M9 pistols I was issued in the Army and they got 3/5 stars for flaky reliability and assorted other performance issues that I actually saw first hand. I've never seen any evidence of death or near-fatal injuring from M9 slides whacking people in the head. An actual reference to actual evidence of people being killed by a catastrophic failure of an M9 would be nice to know, but I haven't seen it yet... certainly not on this thread.
My $.02
I humped a 1911 for many years in the Army, I like the pistol. Even the tired worn out pieces we were issued in the 70's.
This weekend I was able to shoot a box stock 92f for the first time. I was not impressed. Oh it fired and worked flawlessly. But it did not feel as good in the hand as a plane jane 1911. The 1911 is actually smaller and thinner! At least I think so.
Now I have always been a proponent of the US going to 9mm to be in line with our allies, but I feel they should have gone to the Hi Power, 30 years ago!
The Hi Power is a work of art, the Beretta is clunky.
Comparing the Beretta to my beat up IDF surplus Hi Power there is no contest, the Hi Power wins.
So I'm an old Fart, so what
I humped a 1911 for many years in the Army, I like the pistol. Even the tired worn out pieces we were issued in the 70's.
This weekend I was able to shoot a box stock 92f for the first time. I was not impressed. Oh it fired and worked flawlessly. But it did not feel as good in the hand as a plane jane 1911. The 1911 is actually smaller and thinner! At least I think so.
Now I have always been a proponent of the US going to 9mm to be in line with our allies, but I feel they should have gone to the Hi Power, 30 years ago!
The Hi Power is a work of art, the Beretta is clunky.
Comparing the Beretta to my beat up IDF surplus Hi Power there is no contest, the Hi Power wins.
So I'm an old Fart, so what
That's because it has a double column magazine and holds twice the rounds of the 1911. It's too big for some people. For other it's great. For those it works for (like me), it performs marvelously. For those it doesn't suit, well then it doesn't. My guess is that the 1911 probably "fits" more people ergonomically just because of the grip size being smaller (and there is something enormously shootable about the 1911 -- don't know quite what it is, but it's pretty undeniable).
But in the end, it's just a piece of hardware people. How come nobody ever gets this hung up over their socket wrench sets?
To all:
I cant seem to find the incident of reported Deaths associated with the early 92 slides via simple search. ( Tho I do think it's funny that we cant agree wether they were Italian or American made..) It very well may be an exageration based on reality...
If this happened like I read, woudn't the army keep records on it? If so how would a civilian find out about it? F.O.I.A? Vetrans administration?
Anyhow, I dont have that much inclination to sit fron't of the ol computer and look for something I may not find.
Would I buy a Beretta...nope, show me the Walther P-5's, CZ-75, Hi-Power DA and even some ruger Redhawks. I was drooling on some new "government Model" marked Colts at the last Show...but even these I did not buy...
let's call it a draw.
I cant seem to find the incident of reported Deaths associated with the early 92 slides via simple search. ( Tho I do think it's funny that we cant agree wether they were Italian or American made..) It very well may be an exageration based on reality...
If this happened like I read, woudn't the army keep records on it? If so how would a civilian find out about it? F.O.I.A? Vetrans administration?
Anyhow, I dont have that much inclination to sit fron't of the ol computer and look for something I may not find.
Would I buy a Beretta...nope, show me the Walther P-5's, CZ-75, Hi-Power DA and even some ruger Redhawks. I was drooling on some new "government Model" marked Colts at the last Show...but even these I did not buy...
let's call it a draw.
Someone needs to explain to me the logic behind how somebody could possibly be killed by a broken slide. Maybe if your gun stops working and the bad guy's doesn't? Or because you are hanging half out of a chopper, and suddenly getting beamed in the face causes you to fall out of it?
Without a doubt getting hit by a broken slide piece will be painful, but aside from causing a nasty superficial injury I don't see how it could possibly hit someone hard enough to kill them.
Without a doubt getting hit by a broken slide piece will be painful, but aside from causing a nasty superficial injury I don't see how it could possibly hit someone hard enough to kill them.
9mm
I was in the Army as they were transitioning. In a border cavalry squadron where we carried an old .45 that couldn't hit anything and eight magazines that weighed a lot for 64 rounds and about a 25m effective range.
Country of manufacture was moot - contract specified they'd have to be built in the US. The SIG P220 and the Beretta finished the tests successfully. The SIG apparently had a lower unit cost but higher parts prices, so the 92 won.
It is an extremely reliable service pistol, as was the M1911. It is decently accurate for a service pistol and MUCH more accurate than the .45's we had, mostly WWII vintage. To be able to carry 120 rounds instead of 64 was a plus. The 9mm has killed more humans than any other round in history and is superior to the .45 in being able to penetrate body armor or equipment - which soldiers usually have on. The Army Marksmanship unit now has heavily modified M9's which are MORE accurate than the ,45's - see Gun Tests magazine for a review article. I have a CZ85 in 9mm and a SIG P220 in .45 ACP and consider than both far superior in accuracy to the alternatives. I've never had to shoot anyone, and don't intend to start, but the issue of whether the guy is twice as dead if you shot him with a 45 instead of a 9mm was always pretty silly to me. The fact that the M4 carbine is now spreading to units beyond the Spec Ops guys shows that a soldier will carry a rifle when given the choice. Tankers, machine gunners, MP's and pay officers and some others need a sidearm, but it's a lot LESS important to our Armies function than the quality of combat boots - LPC's or Leather Personnel Carriers.
I was in the Army as they were transitioning. In a border cavalry squadron where we carried an old .45 that couldn't hit anything and eight magazines that weighed a lot for 64 rounds and about a 25m effective range.
Country of manufacture was moot - contract specified they'd have to be built in the US. The SIG P220 and the Beretta finished the tests successfully. The SIG apparently had a lower unit cost but higher parts prices, so the 92 won.
It is an extremely reliable service pistol, as was the M1911. It is decently accurate for a service pistol and MUCH more accurate than the .45's we had, mostly WWII vintage. To be able to carry 120 rounds instead of 64 was a plus. The 9mm has killed more humans than any other round in history and is superior to the .45 in being able to penetrate body armor or equipment - which soldiers usually have on. The Army Marksmanship unit now has heavily modified M9's which are MORE accurate than the ,45's - see Gun Tests magazine for a review article. I have a CZ85 in 9mm and a SIG P220 in .45 ACP and consider than both far superior in accuracy to the alternatives. I've never had to shoot anyone, and don't intend to start, but the issue of whether the guy is twice as dead if you shot him with a 45 instead of a 9mm was always pretty silly to me. The fact that the M4 carbine is now spreading to units beyond the Spec Ops guys shows that a soldier will carry a rifle when given the choice. Tankers, machine gunners, MP's and pay officers and some others need a sidearm, but it's a lot LESS important to our Armies function than the quality of combat boots - LPC's or Leather Personnel Carriers.
I too was in the Marines during the M9 transition. Never did I hear of any report of any Marine becoming a casualty from an M9 slide failure. However, I did hear of several SEAL's taking a slide or two in the face, with no fatalities.
I don't know how true this is but I hear the SEAL's have a slogan which came about from the M9 incidents. "You're not a Navy SEAL until you've tasted Italian steel!"
I don't know how true this is but I hear the SEAL's have a slogan which came about from the M9 incidents. "You're not a Navy SEAL until you've tasted Italian steel!"
Abominable No-Man
New member
I was around when we were transitioning to the 9mm, and I DID
see a slide separate. It didn't kill anyone though. If I remember correctly, it seems to me that the pistol was an Italian-made gun.
I've only seen it once, but it made a lasting impression. I don't know of any deaths from slide separations, which happened around the locking lug area of the slide. I carried a .45 for quite
some time before I went into aviation, when we were still carrying
.38's in some units, and I like it better than the Beretta, but then
again I like the S&W autos better than any OTHER pistols, so the
point is moot.
Use what you like. Politics be damned.
ANM
see a slide separate. It didn't kill anyone though. If I remember correctly, it seems to me that the pistol was an Italian-made gun.
I've only seen it once, but it made a lasting impression. I don't know of any deaths from slide separations, which happened around the locking lug area of the slide. I carried a .45 for quite
some time before I went into aviation, when we were still carrying
.38's in some units, and I like it better than the Beretta, but then
again I like the S&W autos better than any OTHER pistols, so the
point is moot.
Use what you like. Politics be damned.
ANM
M1911 vs. M9
>>>>I too was in the Marines during the M9 transition. Never did I hear of any report of any Marine becoming a casualty from an M9 slide failure. However, I did hear of several SEAL's taking a slide or two in the face, with no fatalities. I don't know how true this is but I hear the SEAL's have a slogan which came about from the M9 incidents. "You're not a Navy SEAL until you've tasted Italian steel!"<<<<<
Very interesting, since the SEALs picked the SIG P220/229 to use instead. The SIG is popular among "Special Operations Forces", and who worry about mission requirements above cost or compatibility.
But the M4 carbine is becoming more widespread, relegating the handgun to the entirely secondary role it has always had in military combat.
>>>>I too was in the Marines during the M9 transition. Never did I hear of any report of any Marine becoming a casualty from an M9 slide failure. However, I did hear of several SEAL's taking a slide or two in the face, with no fatalities. I don't know how true this is but I hear the SEAL's have a slogan which came about from the M9 incidents. "You're not a Navy SEAL until you've tasted Italian steel!"<<<<<
Very interesting, since the SEALs picked the SIG P220/229 to use instead. The SIG is popular among "Special Operations Forces", and who worry about mission requirements above cost or compatibility.
But the M4 carbine is becoming more widespread, relegating the handgun to the entirely secondary role it has always had in military combat.
The slide was a problem on the early berettas. The way the story/legend goes is that the marines/seals/rangers whoever were using ammo for 9mm submachine guns in their m9s. The slides blew back into the face of the shooter. Beretta researched and said it was the ammo and not the pistol. They (Beretta then modified the 92f to the 92fs by adding the slide stop to keep the slide coming off because they were using the wrong ammo. You guys have to decide what really happened because no one is saying. Maybe something to do with liability. plunker
I like my Beretta but I don't shoot 30,000 rounds or subgum chow mein ammo either through it. In fact I don't shoot any of that stuff through my pistols.
I like my Beretta but I don't shoot 30,000 rounds or subgum chow mein ammo either through it. In fact I don't shoot any of that stuff through my pistols.
Robby from Long Island
New member
Have owned my 92FS for ten years and fired many thousands of rounds through it without a glitch, never had a slide problem. One of the things I like about it is the way it fits my hand. I like a handfilling grip when it comes to handguns.
Also own a Para P14.45 LTD purchased several years ago when they first came out, found out it loves Remington golden sabers in 230 gr. and have another gun that goes bang every time the trigger is squeezed.
Feel both guns are equally dependable. The Para might be slightly more particular about what it's fed, but once you find what it likes, its 100% reliable. JMO
Safe shooting.
Also own a Para P14.45 LTD purchased several years ago when they first came out, found out it loves Remington golden sabers in 230 gr. and have another gun that goes bang every time the trigger is squeezed.
Feel both guns are equally dependable. The Para might be slightly more particular about what it's fed, but once you find what it likes, its 100% reliable. JMO
Safe shooting.
I carried several side arms in my long military career. Everything from Colt/Ruger and Baretta. I have spent many many hours shooting everything that goes Boom. I don't know why the military adopted the Baretta but like so many have said, It just sort of fit my hand just right and was reasonably accurate. Was easy to care for and I had no breakdowns. I love the old 45's but the 9mm is more to my taste....remember, This gun is for shooting, this gun is for fun....So who cares, shoot what you like and enjoy
Given the increasingly widespread use of the M4 Carbine, it's good to see the whole "light rifle" concept (which dates back to WW1) finally taking hold. The light rifle program is what gave us the M1 Carbine, a weapon which very few miss. It was nice and light, but wholly underpowered for the task at hand. With the M4 at least we finally have a decent weapon that is worth taking into a firefight. Considering how the XM-177 has been around forever one wonders why it took so long!