Colt 1849 Pocket Revolver Bolt Timing

B

benjaminh

Inactive
Hi guys,
I've been working on installing a new hammer (from Dixie Gun Works) in my 1849 Colt Pocket Revolver. . The problem I'm having is with the stop/bolt. When the hammer is cocked, it does not immediately lift the bolt out of the cylinder notch. The hammer can move about ¼ to 3/8 before there is any noticeable bolt movement. Since the hand is trying to spin the cylinder while the bolt is still in the cylinder notch, the revolver obviously jams. As well, the bolt is dropping at the very back of the lead in groove to the cylinder notch. How do you adjust the timing of the bolt on these revolvers?

Benjamin
 
benjaminh

I don't know how experienced that you are, just noticed that it was your first post. Welcome to the forum.

If you have not had a lot of experience, there are some good bits of info in a recent thread in this forum 'Received my Pietta 1860 Army'. Besides the information in the post, there are the links to the 'Pettifogger' information on black powder pistols which helps in understanding just what moves what when the action is cycled.

You may already know all this, if so never mind. Question, did you compare the old bolt to the new one from Dixie for length and contour etc.? That's a good place to start. If the bolt looks like it is reasonably close in dimensions, then a closer examination of the interface between the hammer cam and bolt prongs would probably be next. If there is slack between the parts, or the length of the new bolt is different, that could cause a late movement of the bolt...if I understand it correctly.

There are others much more knowledgeable than I that will offer advise I'm sure.
 
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I'm new to hobby gunsmithing, but have a good sense of mechanics, and have spent much working on antique mechanical items. Hopefully, with this forum's help, I'll be able to get this problem sorted out.
I've looked through the thread you mentioned, and it seems that the way in which the bolt on my revolver is lowering into the lead in groove of the cylinder notch is just fine. This does leave me with the problem, though, that the bolt is not dropping out of the cylinder soon enough. The problem currently is that the bolt cam on the hammer is not contacting the bolt immediately; the hammer has to move about 1/4" back before the cam comes into contact with the bolt. I can't think of any solution to this, except for grinding off the cam, redrilling slightly higher up, and inserting a new cam. Seems a bit radical to me, though.

As a note, the bolt I'm using is the original; I'm just replacing the hammer, which someone has really botched up in the past.

Benjamin
 
My mistake, you said hammer and I thought bolt. On page 18 of the first Pettifogger instruction, there is a discussion of the interface between the hammer and the bolt.

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One.pdf

I would check to see that the hammer cam (the little round cylinder embedded in the hammer) is turned (clocked) properly to move the bolt when the hammer first moves. Also the slack between the prongs on the bolt and the hammer.

You will need to remove the grip frame and look into the upper frame to see what is moving or not.

You didn't say if you had already read the Pettifogger info. There are multiple parts. I think there is a link later in the thread for all parts.
 
Don't think I would try to redrill the hammer. I might try to add metal to the hammer to reduce the extra clearance. What is the clearance? Could you add a short steel sleeve to the hammer cam below the bevel on the cam? If not, perhaps you would need to weld a small extra bead on the proper side of the cam to lift the bolt earlier, then file the bead down to the proper clearance.

You could also try to add to the bolt, however that would be much more delicate. I wouldn't think that the hammers for the Pocket Colt would be different than for other Colt models. Does the original hammer drop the bolt at the right time, or is that what was messed up with the original?
 
Yes, I've looked through the Pettifogger info; very helpful.

The revolver is currently completely torn down, with just the parts of the action installed so I can view what's happening. The problem is that the hammer cam does not "move the bolt when the hammer first moves." There is some movement of the hammer before the cam contacts the bolt; this is the problem. This may be caused by an incorrectly clocked cam; if so, do I need to drill and replace the cam, or is there a method of correcting the existing cam? What do you mean by "the slack between the prongs on the bolt and the hammer"?
 
Is the gun an original 1849 or a repro? If it is original, you don't want to change any of the original parts; do all the fitting on the reproduction part(s).

Jim
 
I didn't notice your last post when I last posted, but your comparison point is good.

I checked how the original and the new hammer manipulate the bolt. They both lower the bolt at the exact same moment. I'm thinking that my hand and spring might actually be the problem. A slightly long hand would cause the cylinder to move before the bolt had been lowered out of the hammer.

The reason I'm replacing this hammer is because someone filed the sight groove off, and also shortened the hammer face enough that it won't reach the nipple/cap. As well, for some bizarre reason, a pin had been soldered into the hole for the hand and spring pivot, and the hand and spring had been replaced with a Remington style one with a hole, rather than the Colt one with a pin. This meant that I'm replacing both the hammer and the hand and spring, so either could be at fault here.
 
Jim, it is an original 1849 that has been attacked by an very incompetent person in the past. That having been said, I've removed those original parts that are no longer functioning due to this fact, and am doing all the fitting on the new parts as too not damage the originals further.
 
I believe the hammer cam pushes up on the (nearest to the hammer) bolt prong or leg or whatever you would call it, to drop the bolt from the cylinder. I was thinking that you were saying that there was too much clearance (slack, gap) between the hammer cam and the leg of the bolt. This would cause the bolt not to move as soon as the hammer moves.

I was thinking of the best way to reduce that clearance between the two. There is probably not enough protrusion of the hammer cam to allow you to slide a steel sleeve over the hammer cam. The wall thickness would need to be right and so would the inside diameter. Tough to find anyway.

If you were to try to add metal to the leg of the bolt, you would probably change the temper of the leg, which might cause failure. The hammer has more metal, so reshaping the hammer cam by adding metal to reduce the gap might be better.

I think that it would be difficult to find a new hammer with the proper dimension from Dixie, because the clearance is small and you would be trusting someone else's measurements. So I would try to modify what you have.

If you drill out the cam, you would need to relocate the hole for the new cam. There is not much room on some of the hammers. You would need to get the direction from the original hole right and drill a clearance fit hole. I don't know what tools you have, but that is machine shop stuff.

Seems to me that if you can see which side of the cam needs to have more metal when you are moving the action, then mark that area with a marker, then take the action down and see about adding metal and filing to shape.
 
Welcome Ben. I can tell by your posts that you have a good understanding of the mechanics of your revolver. I have encountered a similar problem and resolved it. Here's how:

You need to get the bolt to rise up higher through the notch so that the bolt leg can move closer to the hammer cam. Install the bolt in the frame and look to see where it touches the frame stopping it from going higher. It is usually stopped by the lip at the front of the bolt. Simply remove some metal from the lip and the bolt leg will move closer to the hammer cam. Once you get the bolt leg to hammer cam clearance correct you may have to remove some metal from the bolt stop since it will be riding higher in relation to the cylinder.

Good luck on your project. Joe
 
Joe, thanks for the advice. That is a completely logical method of fixing this problem, and something that I would never have though of. Before I try that, I'd just like to make sure that this problem isn't with the hand, as I'm replacing that too. Currently, the hand moves the cylinder so that it ends up in the right position at the exact same time as the trigger engages the hammer sear at full cock. I'm assuming this is the correct way for the parts to interact. Or should you have to pull the hammer past the full cock position to fully turn the cylinder? I'm just asking, because if the hand is too long, that could be a cause of this problem as well.
 
Your thinking is correct. However, on my reproduction Pocket Colt I have to pull the hammer past full cock to fully rotate the cylinder. Not so on my full size models.
 
I feel you will need to modify both. Replacement parts usually require some gun-smithing to function properly. I would try to correct the bolt leg to hammer cam first.
 
Joe, I have already removed a bunch of material from the hand to get it to fit in the way it does now. I definetely don't expect parts to just drop in place. Thanks for the advice, I'll try doing some work on the bolt and see how things go. Will report back.
 
Ben,
Joe is correct. You can buy a lot of movement by doing what he says. That allows the bolt arm (the left one, that rides the cam) to locate closer to the cam at rest. This is where the bolt movement you need comes from. It may be necessary to totally remove the "lip" (stop) which means cycling without the cylinder in place will require you to manually push the bolt "head" down. Replacing the hammer pretty much changes the effective lengths/geometry of all the other action parts. The bolt drop (onto the surface of the cylinder) is the last part of the timing issue.
The hand needs to have the cylinder at battery when the full cock notch is reached. So, when setting the timing, the lockup and full cock happen simultaneously (sounds like one click). Now you can adjust the bolt to drop one bolt width in front of the cyl. locking notch.
That will be textbook timing.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
 
The tail of the bolt needs adjusting so as to raise faster; thus allowing the bolt to drop sooner. But if it's original, I wouldn't touch that part. I'd buy a replacement and fit it.

if you want to learn how to do it, you should sign up for the NRA Summer Revolver Repair class at TSJC. The instructor is K. Gipson, who is now the dean for the trades at that school. He's easily the best instructor they have for gonne-smithing.
 
Thanks Mike and Joe! I took of some metal on the front lip of the bolt, and then gradually took very small amounts off the top of the bolt until it just retracts enough at the right time. When you cock the hammer now, the bolt retracts perfectly, and the hand spins the cylinder nicely with no jamming or resistance. I really appreciate your help in getting that part of this revolver working again.

The bolt is popping into the cylinder notch lead in groove too early still. I would say that it's about two bolt width's from the notch when it drops onto the cylinder. So, how, and when, do I adjust this? I still have to adjust the trigger to hammer interaction. Should this be done first, or should I first get the bolt dropping in the right place?
 
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