Cold weld ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Appeal to authority: Using the opinion or position of an authority figure, or institution of authority, in place of an actual argument.

http://brushtalk.blogspot.com/2012/08/drinking-games-for-skeptics-20-logical.html

Since we are not all experts, in the end we all appeal to authority in some matters. However, I prefer the philosphy of the The Royal Society's motto "Nullius in verba' is taken to mean 'take nobody's word for it', or ones no one's authority. Science began when rational men began making inferences based on observations in the physical world. This is a critical point, how the physical world functions must be based on observations and repeatable experiments. Those too lazy, too fuzzy minded, who live in a world of ignorance and superstition, will quickly appeal to authority. Especially when authority confirms their biases:

Appealtoauthority-doctorsmoke.jpg


Confirmation bias is very interesting, and we see it all the time: Confirmation bias, also called myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's beliefs or hypotheses while giving disproportionately less attention to information that contradicts it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias The particularly muddle headed will never get past their fixed fallacies , because through confirmation bias, they will always ignore any evidence that contradicts their fallacious view of the world. Even highly trained individuals will get stuck in this rut, the tin can ammunition fiasco shows confirmation bias at almost every step, and it is interesting to see how confirmation bias caused airline pilots to fly into mountains, seas, or planes on the runway. These pilots just ignored any evidence contrary to their opinion of the situation, and as a result, took themselves, their crew, and passengers to a grisley end.
 
Note that cupronickel jacketed bullets will not weld to the cases with any degree of strength.

It requires that the bullet be tin plated.
Click to expand...
That makes sense. It also explains why I've never experienced it ever with old cupro-nickel jacketed .303 British ammo as the tin plating seems to be a US procedure.
FWIW we were firing .303 made in 1913 on a range in 1968 or so & there was no problems.
 
it is interesting to see how confirmation bias caused airline pilots to fly into mountains, seas, or planes on the runway
Click to expand...

You want me to get those pilots out of those planes?

I have never tracked the time it takes you to respond to Dick Culvers take on the Tin Can ammo. I have noticed you have never offered anything better.

F. Guffey
 
That makes sense. It also explains why I've never experienced it ever with old cupro-nickel jacketed .303 British ammo as the tin plating seems to be a US procedure.
FWIW we were firing .303 made in 1913 on a range in 1968 or so & there was no problems.
__________________
Click to expand...

Wogpotter, I do not want to influence you nor do I want to bias your opinion, but on page 6 Dick Culver gave credit to Townson Whelen for tinning the bullets. He also added the part about pulling bullets. Seems the pressure required and measured in pounds was as high as 600:eek:. And the reloading world jumped on that and claimed the welded neck caused high pressure etc. etc...

In the book no one reads, R. Lee's book on modern reloading it is suggested the case expands, then there is a discussion on the amount of pressure required to expand the neck etc.. Then there are factors, I believe the factors drive people/reloaders to the curb. I do not have neck tension, I can not measure neck tension because all of my tension gages are calibrated in pounds.

Someone tell me how many tensions in 600 pounds of bullet hold.

F. Guffey
 
Well, as I noted above, in the American Rifleman collections when I as on staff there we had a number of the tinned bullets...

Complete with the neck attached.

And rifling marks.
 
I have never tracked the time it takes you to respond to Dick Culvers take on the Tin Can ammo. I have noticed you have never offered anything better.
Click to expand...

Bless old Marine Major Dick Culver, a true American Hero, now resting with other American Hero's. All did he was unquestioningly cobble together information from Hatcher's Notebook and other accounts to come up with an entertaining story. Major Culver was familiar with Government coverup's and denial of responsibility. His stories of the failures of the M16 in Vietnam are first hand, and good. Even the Marine Corp, an Organization dedicated to Duty and Honor, lied to its troops. Shame, shame, shame. Since Major Culver is quite dead, not much is going to change about his Tin Can story.


When you join him in eternity, maybe you can discuss this with him. Sooner the better.
 
Well, as I noted above, in the American Rifleman collections when I as on staff there we had a number of the tinned bullets...

Complete with the neck attached.

And rifling marks.
Click to expand...

Mike Irwin, that had to hurt, the bullet left the barrel with the case neck.

There have been members on this forum that have fired cases that lost their necks. One member did not notice it until the fifth round. He ejected a case then discovered the neck was missing. He then check the bore and found the missing neck. Then then checked the first 4 cases fired, all had missing necks.

the bullet left the barrel with the case neck.
Click to expand...

No one at the NRA called me to ask what I thought about the these horror stories: But, I would have suggested the weld/bond was very good. So good the neck came off with the bullet and was sized in the forcing cone. Someone that has seen the phenomena could tell me if the case neck had rifling on it. If no rifling on the neck portion exist I will assume the barrel increased in diameter, something like burnishing.

F. Guffey
 
Now this is what Major Townsend Whelen is saying in print, well before the Sept 1921 National Matches:

The Tests at Quantico
Part 1: National Ammunition Trials, Capt. E. C. Crossman

Arms and the Man 1 June 1921 courtesy Google Books

Frankford Arsenal this year effected the most important improvement in bullet jacket construction that the ammunition world has seen in ten years, and unless there develops so little joker later on, the new bullet buries the old bugaboo of metal fouling, and tamps down the sod on him. It does this, too, not with any special mixture of jacket metal, but with the ordinary run of cupronickel available at the arsenal. The shooting of the new bullet in the National Match test was so extraordinary that it promised, in its handloaded form, to be a most dangerous competitor for the Palma Honors as well. …..
The test for National Match ammunition was not, as in the past, open to commercial makers. In days gone by, up to 1914, the Government bought a million or more round each year from commercial loading companies just to encourage them to keep their hands in making Army Ammunition…….

At present, based on the amount of the Army appropriation and ammunition on hand, it is estimated that the Government will buy its next million rounds from a commercial company about 1975, and so the test is merely to select the best of the lots Frankford sees fit to submit. It has nothing to do with the test for Palma Match ammunition, other than that the two occur about the same date to save convening the board twice. …….

The Arsenal brought down three lots of ammunition for test, from which one was to be selected for the matches, and put into immediate production to get the 2,200,000 rounds necessary for the big shoot. ……..

The tinned bullet, in view of the way it worked out, is the most interesting of the three and from very every standpoint is as important a development as anything that came to light in the later Palma Match test. I cannot do better than to quote Major Whelen the hard-working and enthusiastic chap now in command of Frankford, and who had much to do with bringing the bullet to its finished form:

“With regard to the tinned bullets in the National Match and Palma ammunition, this tin plating is not to be confused the old tin washing which was given in the past and principally to bullet jacketed with gilding metal to prevent corrosion. It is much thicker. We have been experimenting with this bullet ever since I arrived at the Arsenal, and it always gives a better average for accuracy than any bullets of any jacket material without the tin plating. It makes little difference whether the in plating is one-half thousandth thick, or one-quarter thousandth thick, although the plating one-quarter thousandth thick has given a trifle better average accuracy. We cannot go below one-quarter thousandth and prevent metal fouling, as the land cut through the tin plating and bear enough on the cupro nickel underneath to cause metal fouling to be deposited on the lands. In fact, for service ammunition in barrels which sometimes have rough lands, the plating should be thicker than on this National Match ammunition, in order to surely prevent metal fouling. It is just possible that if a barrel has very rough lands, it may pick up a little metal fouling on top of them when these bullets are used, but otherwise I do not think that there will be any necessity at the National Matches for taking any precautions about metal fouling, or of cleaning with ammonia, except perhaps that it might be well to occasionally swab the bore with stronger ammonia. In our experience the bore has always cleaned perfectly by first giving it tow or three strokes with a fairly new brass wire-bristle brush and then cleaning in the ordinary way with any good powder solvent.

The success of this tin bullet due not only to its non-fouling properties, but also to the fact that the tin plating allows the bullet to be driven from the case into the bore with the minimum deformation during the swedging. For example, we have found it possible to draw cartridge cases out of mild steel on when we give the steel a plating of tin, copper, or lead. The naked steel will not draw, but the plated steel draws through the dies and punches as well as the brass does. The tin on the bullet evidently allows the bullet to slide into the bore with the minimum deformity.

This tin bullet sticks in the cartridge case in a very remarkable manner. It takes such force to pull it out, about 570 pounds, that it cannot be pulled out straight without breaking the case. However, it only takes about one-half the pressure to push a tin-plated bullet through the bore than it does take to push a jacketed bullet which is not plated through. For this reason, it is probably not necessary to cannelure and crimp this bullet, even if it were loaded up in service ammunition. It is also probable that we will be able to make the neck of the cartridge case before seating a bullet of a larger size, and thus, to a great extent avoid the split necks in cartridge cases, which are largely caused by a tension on the neck.”
Click to expand...

Now this is Townsend Whelen in 1945:

Small Arms Design and Ballistics[/b]

One year Frankford Arsenal tried the experiment of electro-plating the jackets very heavily with tin. Very excellent accuracy resulted, but the experiment was not a success for two reasons. First, the bullet soldered itself very firmly to the neck of the case, and if the cartridge was fired in a very tightly necked chamber, or it the neck of the chamber was heavily greased, so that the neck of the case could not expand to normal chamber walls, and free the bullet from the case, an extremely high breech pressure was set up, and the head of the case often blew out and wrecked the rifle. Second, the bullet heavily plated the bore with tin, and this tin alloyed with the steel of the barrel, and the resulting steel-tin alloy, with it lowered melting point, washed out very rapidly so the life of the barrel was extremely short.
Click to expand...

A quarter of a century after the fact, Townsend Whelen is still not acknowledging that the overpressure problems of the tin can ammunition were completely due to the cold welding between bullet and case. The rest is a misdirection. But it is the misdirection that the American shooting community accepts.

The higher the authority figure, the greater the distortion to society when they get it wrong. This one is still current and it has been 94 years since the coverup.
 
Last edited:
I know you're looking at it and seeing a vast conspiracy, horrific collusion at multiple levels, blah blah blah.

I still don't buy it.

None of what you've posted provides conclusive proof of malfeasance, nor do you give a convincing reason of what possible reason or gain there would be for such.

Your claims are... interesting.

But not, in any sense of the word, conclusive at all.
 
Dick Culver gave credit to Townson Whelen for tinning the bullets.
Click to expand...
I seem to be missing something here. How does this have anything to do with British cupro-nickel bullets not being tinned:confused:
 
Last edited:
Hows odes
Click to expand...

wogpotter, when I include someone in a conversation I never know if they are going to be able to keep it together or if they are going to loose it.

This forum is a reloading/gun forum, I believe it should be a place where members demonstrate an ability to keep it together.

F. Guffey
 
I know you're looking at it and seeing a vast conspiracy, horrific collusion at multiple levels, blah blah blah.

I still don't buy it.

None of what you've posted provides conclusive proof of malfeasance, nor do you give a convincing reason of what possible reason or gain there would be for such.

Your claims are... interesting.

But not, in any sense of the word, conclusive at all.
Click to expand...

Still loyal to the old organization?

How about this, from the Arms and the Man, the magazine that later became the American Rifleman.

The National Match Ammunition

1 Oct 1921 Arms and the Man, Editorial by Brig-Gen Fred H. Phillips, Jr, Secretary NRA


Use of the national Match ammunition through the Camp Perry shooting season has amply demonstrated that, in the hands of intelligent rifleman, the “tin can” cartridge may be regarded as absolutely safe.
Click to expand...

After 1920 the Ordnance Department was allotted one Major General, two Brigadier Generals, and 350 Officers. As of 30 June 1921, there were 281 active duty Ordnance Department Officers in service, and even in 1939, there were only 287 Officers in the Ordnance Department, never meeting the authorized ceiling till WW2. As you know, Major General Hatcher ran the Ordnance Department during WW2, as a MG. I was personally surprised by his low grade as now LT Generals are in charge of MACOMs.

Maybe you can ask your Bud's at the NRA, but I am of the opinion that BG Phillips was one of those two BG Generals alloted to the Ordnance Department. As a Regular Army Officer, and as one of three flag Officers in the organization, he is the proverbial 800 lb gorilla. If BG Phillips writes an editorial in the Arms and the Man, it represents an Official Army position. If he says the "tin can" cartridge may be regarded as absolutely safe, this is the US Army saying the "tin can" cartridge is absolutely safe.

So, was the "tin can" cartridge absolutely safe? ;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top