Cocked & Locked Carry?

...But to get in that state with a SA gun you have to thumb the hammer down on a loaded chamber, which is asking for an accidental discharge. Thumb slips = hole where it doesn't belong. So "de-cocking" a single-action auto (which you must do to carry in the condition described) is a very UNSAFE practice, much moreso than using the pistol in the manner it was designed for by carrying C&L.
 
For those that carry a SA such as the 1911 with the hammer down I will post the ONLY safe fool proff way to decock the hammer using the safetys built into the pistol.

Place the thumb of your left hand between the hammer and the frame. Wipe off the safety and pull the trigger letting the hammer fall only about 1/8 inch untill it hits your thumb. RELEASE THE TRIGGER.

Now carefully let the hammer down untill it stops on the intersept notch.

Now pull the hammer back only far enough so you can pull the trigger to lower it the rest of the way down.

This is the safe way to decock a 1911. If somehow you lost control of the hammer during the first step, which is almost impossible, the intersept notch and in the case of the series 80 the firing pin lock will not let the gun fire if YOU HAVE TAKEN YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER. Keeping the trigger pulled to the rear disables ALL these safetys.

It is up to you if you wish to carry it with the hammer down. If you do so this is the way to let the hammer down.
 
I practiced C&L carry when I used to carry.

I did a LOT of dry practice to set muscle memory.

The think I did not like was the BHP clone I was using would often "creep" the safety off - so I would end up carrying in condition zero!.

As I had practiced a lot, and minded my trigger finger, it was not a really big deal - but I do appreciate the positive detent on a 1911 :D
 
Thanks CastleBravo...

You beat me to it. Even if you can make an argument that carrying Con. 2 is safe (which I for one don't believe you can) you can't debate the dangers of getting the gun into and out of cond. 2.

Condition 2 on a DA pistol is relatively unsafe since a trigger pull will fire the pistol.
Click to expand...
No kidding? Is your nickname Sherlock? You mean the gun will fire if you pull the trigger? And this is unsafe? You mean a car will go forward when you put it in D and push the gas pedal? Oh my goodness...what is this world coming to?

I see some TFLers calling people morons etc. because they have expressed disquiet when seeing them carrying C&L. That's not necessary.
Click to expand...
You are right...it is not necessary...it goes without saying!
 
One of my favorite quotes - I think it is on someones sig around here:

Man sees a Texas Ranger with a C&L 1911 and asks "isn't that dangerous?" "Of course it's dangerous! I wouldn't carry the son-a-b*tch if it werent dangerous!"

I like C&L because while I do believe it is "safe", it is also a condition where your gun is extremely ready to go - I found that this helped keep it at the front of my mind even more. The one time I had to draw, it was cool to think "draw, swipe, assess".

My wife did not like me to leave it in C&L mode on the night stand - she was afraid I would sleep walk or do soemthing when I was not quite awake - I put it in condition 3, but it was a little hard for here to cycle, so I settled on condition 2 - and yes, every time I had to drop the hammer, I held my breath and was very very careful.
 
Pendragon

I just posted the safe way to decock a 1911. Read this and try to understand it.

If you feel the need to let the hammer down on your pistol you now know to do so without fear of an AD.

I am not reccomending the carry of a 1911 with the hammer down. Some feel that it is safe and some do not. Most do not have enough knowlage of firearms design to know which is safer and they have to rely on their feelings to make this decision.

There was times even old Cooper let the hammer down on his 1911. You can bet he did not blow a hole the floor because the old fellow knows how to handle his pistol.

99% of the time I carry a 1911 it is cocked and locked. Like you there is a few occaisions I like to let the hammer down.

Decocking the 1911 does not require the brains of Einstian and the physisical ability of Bruce Lee. It only requires that you use the built in safety features of the pistol that were designed for these purposes.
 
What really bothers me most about cocked and locked is NOT having the hammer cocked, but have practiced/been taught/learned well enough for the gun not to be a liability if you are carrying it for self-defence.

In other words, I don't think that C&L is dangerous, but that in the heat of the moment, one might forget to swipe the safety and get shot/stabbed or whatever.

Thats what I was talking about as far as having training, but I guess that it really is a matter of practicing enough for it to be second nature.

I hunted deer for years with an auto or pump shotgun. With it loaded and ready to go you are carrying cocked and locked so to speak. If you have a round chambered, your gun is cocked and hopefully, you have the safety on. Now I have made some pretty fast work of removing the safety, shouldering, and firing at a deer while on drives. But, it would be alot different if someone was attacking you.

I am sorry for not making myself clear.

I must admit. for years I was kinda leary of this type of carry, but I started to THINK about it and I truly believe that it is as safe as any type of carry. You just have to KNOW what you are doing and understand the function of the particular gun.
 
After you have fired and carried a 1911 for a while the act of wiping off the safety is part of the firing process just like pulling the trigger. You would not forget to remove the safety no more than you would forget to pull the trigger.
 
I taught myself. Sure I grew up shooting my dads combat commander, but he always carried his loaded chamber, hammer in the half-cock notch. To each his own.

In this mode firing pin blocks are usually neutralised also. A hammer fall will fire the gun. Remember during reholstering, unholstering, a gungrab, a fight, a fall, an accident, an impact the safety can become undone.
Click to expand...

This is not true with a series 80 Colt, thr firing pin lock stays engaged unless the trigger is held to the rear...

Test it and see... first unload and clear gun. Second, clear gun again to be sure. Now, cycle slide so hammer is at full cock, point towards ceiling or sky, insert a ballpoint pen into barrel flat end first, pull trigger and watch pen hit ceiling from firing pin blow. Now do it again but instead of pulling the trigger with a firing grip on gun, grasp grip below trigger guard while engaging grip safety and use an implement to lightly tap trigger from side. The hammer will fall, the pen will stay in the barrel because of no blow from firing pin, hence, firing pin lock active...

I find it hard to beleive that one could forget to disengage the safety on a 1911 (presuming much practice beforehand). If you can forget, you haven't been practicing enough and its not second nature yet. I just tried it a few times with my colt (empty) to see if I could draw and orient on a target without disengaging the safety. It took a few tries to accomplish because muscle memory mindlessly disengaged it for me! Point made. Practice.
 
Cornbread,

I never carried with the hammer down - and remember, this was a BHP, not a 1911.

The only time I dropped the hammer was when I was putting it on the nightstand - and while I was careful and really never thought I would have an AD, I still followed the rules and kept it pointed in a safe direction.

the BHP (its been a while) has a half cock notch that if you release (while holding) the hammer with the trigger and then release the trigger, the hammer will not drop all the way - also, the pin is inertial so just bumping it would not set the gun off.
 
It only requires that you use the built in safety features of the pistol that were designed for these purposes.
Click to expand...

That could not be more wrong. The 1911 was not designed for decocking at all - it was designed for C&L. The half cock notch is not designed for decocking - it is designed to catch the hammer in the event that someone who doesn't know any better attempts to decock the weapon and drops the hammer, NOT as an aid to that process.

Do you see the difference? It was designed as a backup to save your bacon if you do the wrong thing - not as a proper part of a correct process.

Aside from the inherently dangerous process of decocking, there is another danger of condition 2. In the event that you have a hammer down on a loaded chamber, a blow on the hammer (as from being dropped) will fire the weapon. For that to happen in condition 1 requires that the blow be strong enough to break some metal parts.


Probably the only condition more dangerous for a 1911 is carrying in the half cock position. It's the worst of all possible worlds.
 
Sundance, you said condition 2 was unsafe and I AGREED with you re: DA pistols and you still try to flak me! Seems you have a problem...

Further I gave a RECOMMENDATION (know what that means?). You either take it or leave it..

Finally, if you go to the link that someone posted here re: Frontsights incident you will see a post on a ND on a 1911 pistol that was supposed to have been C&L. Hence my point that things can happen that can affect the manual safety and so one has to be extremely careful when C&L. You will see ND with other pistols too but I believe the post was about 'Cocked and Locked'

If I or anyone say something and you do not understand or agree then their is a civil way to deal with it.. you do not have to try to be RUDE. So take a chill pill..



:rolleyes:
 
Capt.

A blow to the hammer can not fire a 1911 in condition 2.

You can beat it with a hammer and it will not fire.
Don't belive me? Try it. Dont aruge the point untill you try it. A long time ago I had this argument with a couple of guys that didnt understand the 1911. The bet I won bought me a new pistol.

We took a perfecly normal series 70 1911 and chambered a primed case. I let the hammer down. I handed it to these two nuts and told them to make the primer fire with a blow to the hammer. They almost destroyed the hammer before they gave up. They beat it against a concrete floor and smacked the hammer several times with my shop hammer.

I did not care if I had to replace a beat up hammer because I won enough money off these two to replace it and buy me a nice .22 auto.

Also there ALWAYS will be those who will carry hammer down. I never said I reccomend it. I posted the only safe way to decock the 1911 using the built in safetys.

Why would anyone bypass these safetys when decocking a 1911 and risk an AD?

It does not matter if the gun was designed to be decocked or not. They WILL be decocked by a hell of a lot of people whether you like it or not.

It is better that these people know the safe way to do it.
 
defox,

As you pointed out this post is about cocked and locked which aside from the CZ75 is generally reserved to SA autos. So when I said Cond. 2 is unsafe I was obviously speaking of SA autos not DA autos. Cond.2 is the only logical way to carry a DA auto or a DA revolver, but we weren't talking about them until you brought them up in this totally false statement.
Condition 2 on a DA pistol is relatively unsafe since a trigger pull will fire the pistol. On a SA this is not possible, you have to thumb the hammer first hence the term SA. So carrying hammer down on a SA is safe.
Click to expand...
If you think I'm rude, so be it. When I see people like you encouraging other people, some of whom may be inexperienced and impressionable, to use unsafe gun habits, it ticks me off. If it hurt you feelings, get over it. This is a forum open to debate. It is not kindergarten. Don't wear your feelings on your sleeve.

If you are going to carry a SA auto such as the 1911 or the Browning HiPower in the safest most effective manner, carry it Cond. 1 C&L. If this scares you, you probably need to seek another weapon design. If you still want to carry one, carry it cond. 3 and rack the slide to put it into action. Plenty safe but slower into action. If you can't accept one of these two methods, the SA auto is not for you. Look elsewhere for a handgun. There is no shame in it. Carrying cond. 2 requires you to lower the hammer in an unsafe manner on a live round risking a ND which endangers you and everyone around you. To put it into action, you must cock the hammer, again risking a ND if your thumb should slip, which endangers you and everyone around you.
 
OK, Cornbread. You are right and something like 90 years of 1911 history is wrong. :rolleyes:


(BTW, read what you said. You said it was designed to be decocked. False.)
 
You've already got a ton of good advice from people much more knowledgeable than me about the safety of the design etc. If you want to get by the psychological thing and get comfortable with carrying in condition one, try doing what I did.
First get a quality belt and holster, and then carry your unloaded 1911 C&L around the house for a couple of weeks.
No matter what I did, that thumb safety would not swipe off. Even if it did, the only way that hammer will fall is if the grip safety is depressed and the trigger is pulled. It helped me appreciate the genius of the design and gave me full confidence in the system.
Good shooting!
 
Would someone please post a link to some origional writings of the period when the 1911 was first developed that states the 1911 was origionaly designed by Browning to be carried cocked and locked. If I am not mistaken the pistol was first designed without a manaul safety. The army insisted that he add one to the design. I do not think the army or Browning was intending for the gun to be carried cocked without a manaul safety.

I do not want the opinions of some here that have no idea how the gun is designed. I want an origional sorce from the time period.

I am not saying cocked and locked is unsafe but I an wondering just why Browning would go to all the trouble of designing the gun to be carried like that when the army was not going to allow the average man to carry it with a round in the chamber.

Also if some of you belive that a blow to the hammer will fire a condition 2 1911 all you have to do is test it just like I did.

Dont talk BS about something you cant prove.
 
Sorry Cornbread,

The ONLY safe way to drop the hammer on a 1911 is to drop the magazine, jack the slide to eject any round in the chamber, retract the slide and LOOK into the chamber to make sure that there ain't another one hiding in there, point the muzzle in a safe direction, squeeze the grip to disengage the grip safety, and squeeze the trigger to drop the hammer PERIOD.

God and John Moses Browning intended the 1911 to be carried Condition One! If you MUST carry Condition Two (Hammer down on an empty chamber.), follow the above procedure, THEN insert a full magazine. NO non-Series 80 1911 should ever be carried in Condition Three (Hammer down on a live round.)!


Yr. Obt. Svnt.
 
Sundance,

Nobody is debating having a 'debate' , my point is that being RUDE is unnecessary. However I see you make no apologies for that, but that is your problem not mine.

1. There are a number of DA pistols that allow C&L e.g. some of the HK USPs and some of the Taurus series pistols. So your statement would not imply SA pistols alone.

2. If carrying a SA with hammer down and round chambered is UNSAFE then you have truly revealed your ignorance on the subject matter. Research information on the design of the 1911 and BHP.

3. You flatter yourself about 'feelings'. You are spending too much time in the sun. Stick to the post.

Again, I suggest you research information on the 1911 and BHP!
 
You can carry your gun any way you want, provided you know what you are doing, are gun-aware, and have got accustomed to handling your gun without getting your heartrate up. When you reach that point, thinking that the gun is just a tool, and handle it without getting complacent, you can carry it any way you want. If you have to REMIND yourself to keep your trigger finger along the frame when clearing leather, or REMIND yourself to keep the trigger finger along the slide when reholstering the gun , or REMIND yourself to keep it along the frame anytime between clearing leather and reholstering, you're not there yet. If that is the case, I suggest you get used to handling your gun more often. The way I did this with my wife several years ago, when she got her CCW, and she got her own CCW gun (a G27 BTW), was to tell her when at our home range practicing,,,,CLEAR GUN, no matter what she was doing with it, or where the gun was, holstered, or unholstered. Then MAKE READY. We did this over and over and over, over several months, until she got enough practice in, to convince me she was safe handling the gun. I would tell her just before we went to bed at night,,,CLEAR GUN. The MAKE READY. I still to this day watch her every now and then, for signs of being complacent, or being reckless. Not because I don't trust her, but because if I catch her in a mistake, I WILL be all over her ass, making sure it don't happen again.

Stay Safe.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top