"cocked and locked"=safe carry?

C

Cullen

New member
Hi folks,
I read in the gun rags and here that the preferred carry method for the .45 is "cocked and locked", which means the hammer cocked back on a loaded chamber and the safety applied. Is this really a safe means of carry? Should there be concern that the safety might disengage accidentally, leading to an AD?

Also, should other firearms with safeties be carried in this manner. For example, the USP has a safety and seemingly could be carried this way - but it also has a decocker. Why design this feature in if the method is safe?

Finally, does carrying the weapon like this wear out the spring by placing it under constant stress?

Thanks! Just trying to get some clarification regarding an unfamiliar weapon and the safest way to handle it.

Cullen

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Those who say Science disproves the existence of God understand neither Science nor God.

We scoff at honor and then are surprised to discover traitors in our midst - Edmund Burke
 
1911s are among safest handguns when carried cocked and locked. The 1911 only discharges when the trigger is intentionally pulled- so if you are following the four rules all is well. (This assumes that the individual carrying the pistol has a curory familiarity with it. Problems arise when the person handling a 1911 has no idea what they are doing. These same people are the people who negligently discharge revolvers and other handguns as well.)

Any handg8uns desiggned to be carried cocked and locked should be perfectly safe to do so. The decocker on the USP is there for those who do not opt to carry cocked and locked, and wish to mechanically make safe before reholstering.

There are others who are better qualified to answer about any wear caused by carrying cocked and locked. Though I have never heard of any.

Erik
 
The SAFEST way to carry a pistol is not to have a round in the chamber. Under these conditions, there is absolutely no chance for an accidental discharge. Of course, if you have to quickly fire the gun, you have to first chamber a round which might take valuable seconds which you might not have.

The next safest is to have a pistol which has a manual safety/decocker as found on many traditional DA/SA models. The safety first must be disengaged and then a long trigger pull is required for the first shot. This long trigger pull is considered an extra safety measure in addition to the manual safety since more presure has to be applied for the first shot thus further reducing the chance of an accidental discharge.

However, while the first shot is fired in double action mode, all subsequent shots are fired in single action mode. The switch from DA to SA is difficult for some to adjust to. Plus a long DA trigger pull for the first shot is considered by some to be a slight handicap.

This brings us to the cocked and locked method of carry. While it is less safe than the other two methods that I just described, because you need to do less things in order to fire the weapon, it is still perfectly safe as long as the safety is engaged and/or you do not put your finger on the trigger and many people look at having to "do less things" in order to get the gun to fire as being a good thing.

Cocked and locked carry is not for everyone and the first few times that you see a pistol carryed in this manner you many feel uncomfortable about it and think that it is dangerous, but you still have two safeties -- the manual safety and the grip safety. Plus, you have to pull the trigger in order to get the gun to discharge.

You have to ask yourself : how many actions do you need to perform in order to feel safe? And this is not a put down on anybody because first, and fore most, you have to have confidence with the gun that you carry.

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If one does not wish to carry "cocked and locked" then get rid of the M870 Remington for hunting, all the bolt action rifles, and every semi- auto rifle or shotgun. Better throw in all break action shotguns and double rifles unless they have exposed hammers, too. Also the Luger and every semi auto pistol made before 1984 with the exception of the Walther P-38.

Cocked and locked is safe. Worn parts can change that situation, but you should know when that is happening or stick to revolvers and lever action rifles.

[This message has been edited by Lavan (edited April 05, 2000).]
 
There are no real or solid data on risk
factors of various semi-autos in large scale use. While such data may be easy to obtain, most departments and agencies keep it to themselves to avoid liability problems.

It would be easy to compare the ND rates, fumbles in incidents, etc. of the many thousands of guns in police use.

Otherwise, it is just the Glock vs 1911
barf fest.

If there is a gun, some doofus has shot him or herself, the neighbor, the dog or whatever attempting to holster it, clean it, demonstrate it, etc.

The best answer is train to you are extremely comfortable with gun and avoid obvious holster and clothing snags.
 
People trained in the use of 1911s are not any more prone to negligent discharges than others. So why do people continue to claim the 1911 is inherently dangerous? There is a manual safety and a grip safety on traditional 1911s. This is more than enough to prevent a ND. Colts have the virtually useless firing pin block (?). I don't drop my weapon regularly from height so it is all but irrelevant.
 
If it will make you feel better, get a holster with a strap that goes between the hammer and firing pin. The hammer has virtually zero chance of dropping without you pulling the trigger, but even if it does the strap will prevent the hammer from hitting the pin.
 
Most of the horror at Cocked & Locked is social in nature...that 'evil looking' cocked hammer. It's as safe as any other weapon.

Regarding the springs, I asked this same question at 1911forum.com and was told by several that any spring wear from continous Cocked&Locked is negligble, if any.

What I do with my Glock or my 1911s is to carry in C1 but keep my weapons in C3 when off my hip.
 
The 1911 style semi-auto was designed and intended to be carried "cocked and locked"
aka "condition 1"

When the hammer is cocked and the safety is applied, to make the pistol "fire" several things have to happen:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>1) The safety needs to be disengaged by the firing hand's thumb
2) The "grip safety" needs to be depressed by the palm of the firing hand
3) The "trigger" needs to be pressed by the firing hand's index finger
</UL>

The notion of these 3 things happening at the exact same time and the gun discharging on its own inside the holster is unrealistic.

First of all, if you're carrying in a rigid holster that fully encloses the trigger guard, how is the trigger going to be spontaneously "pressed" ?

Furthermore, even if the safety somehow "works itself off", the trigger will not move unless the grip safety is depressed. And the only way for the grip safety to be depressed is if the gun is already in your hand.

So like I said, the notion of the gun spontaneously discharging on its own inside the holster is unrealistic.

Believe it or not, but the 1911 is alot "safer" than the ever popular Glock.

As general rule, keep your finger off the trigger and the gun will not fire.

Violate that rule, and you're prone to an accidental discharge.

[This message has been edited by dvc (edited April 06, 2000).]
 
Unless the person is a total idiot, it's near impossible to have an AD when carrying cocked and locked. The 1911 was designed to be carry in that manner. You have to have pressure on the grip safety and pull the trigger. Unless you have a faulty 1911, you can not discharge the round with just a trigger pull. YOU NEED TO DEPRESS the grip safety.

If you are not willing to carry a 1911 in codition one, get a revolver or a DAO.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Svt:
... If you are not willing to carry a 1911 in codition one, get a revolver or a DAO ...[/quote] ... Or a traditional DA/SA.
 
My buddy has a 1911 made in 1913 that his great grandad carried through WW1 and his grandad carried through WW2 and his dad carried through Vietnam. True story! My buddy carries that gun as his primary CCW gun to this day. It shoots great, reliable and accurate an all that. No parts have been replaced in the last century, or at least in long enough that no one is alive that was there. It even has the old thin iron sights and everything, and it hammer bites like crazy (he has a permanet scar from the hammer bite, but refuses to modify the gun, understandably). It has been carried "locked and cocked" and all the springs are good (the mag springs are good too) and it is solid and safe.
I don't think you have to worry about carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. There is little or no chance it could ever go off, until the thumb safety is disengaged and the grip safety is depressed and the trigger is pulled.
Personally, I am a Glock man, but the 1911 is a great gun and my second choice for carry.
 
Fantastic answers! Thanks to everyone who responded so far. I have really learned a lot. I had forgotten about the 1911's grip safety - although don't a lot of people "pin" it so as to disable it? I guess seeing the 1911 cocked is a bit intimidating - all I think of is the VERY light single action pull necessary to set it off. You all have cleared up a serious misconception I had. I may never own a 1911 (too expensive for a good one) but at least I'll know there is nothing wrong with the way I see them carried.

By the way, could someone clarify C1, C2, and C3? There is a partial answer in a couple of the posts, but I'm not fully informed as to the fine distinctions being made.

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We scoff at honor and then are surprised to discover traitors in our midst - Edmund Burke
 
My carry pistol is a Colt .45acp Lightweight Commander. Other than when I shoot it in practice, it's been cocked 'n locked since I bought it in 1978. Never a problem. A Colt Govt. Model that I used in competition is kept cocked 'n locked, ready and willing, in a hidden place in my home where my wife or I can get to it immediately, should the necessity arise. Been that way for years. No problems.

As long as the pistol is in good condition, I'd not worry about it. J.B.
 
Jeffelkins is right, I notice it even in myself. The local gunshop owner keeps a 1911 in condition one in a holster on his desk, and the first time I was in there I think my eyes bugged out. I know I kept looking at it. It just LOOKS dangerous to the uninitiated, like me, even though I know intellectually that an ND would only happen because of multiple mistakes by the user. Think about it--you have to:
1. Defeat grip safety
2. Defeat manual safety
3. Pull trigger.
 
Cullen, these are the "conditions" for the 1911:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
Condition One: A round in the chamber, hammer cocked, thumb safety applied.

Condition Two: A round in the chamber, hammer lowered, safety off.

Condition Three: Loaded magazine inserted, chamber empty.
</UL>
 
I'll ditto what everyone else had said. John M. Browning was, IMHO, the greatest firearms genius of all times, and he designed the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked. If you are properly aware, it's as safe a method of carry as any other, and perhaps safer than condition 3 'cause your gun is ready for instant use. "Please wait a second, Mr. Mugger, while I rack my slide." Yeah, right.

Cullen wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the USP has a safety and seemingly could be carried this way - but it also has a decocker.[/quote]

Keep in mind that the USP has several variants of their safety system. At least one variant allows carry like a traditional 1911; other variants are DA/SA w/safety/decocker, DA only with decocker only, etc.

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Shoot straight regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
Everyone has forgotten the firing pin Lock on series 80 1911s. On earlier series, the "half-cock" knotch is there to catch the hammer if the trigger is not fully depressed.

We had a local LEO accidently cap a woman who he was holding down with his issue Glock in his right hand pressed in between her shoulder blades, while trying to cuff her with his left. He then proceed to shoot himself twice in the leg while trying to reholster the Glock. KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER YOU RETARDED FISH (DUMB BASS)!

There is no safer pistol than the 1911. It's just not PC to carry it in Condition One!

Yr. Obt. Svnt.

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Fred J. Drumheller
NRA Life
NRA Golden Eagle
 
You drive up to your house to pickup something. You will only be a minute. You put the gearshift in park and set the parking brake and leave it running. Is this safe? That is about what you are asking. I imagine it really comes down to perpective. In my opinion the answer is yes, but not absolutely so. As long as the transmition is serviced and operating normally and the parking brake is checked periodically and adjusted,(and you live in a good neighborhood) I see no real problem. Proper care, circumstance and judgement dictate such action and use. If you do not care for your pistol properly or check for proper function and make repairs the answer is no.
 
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