CNN poll about using military for domestic law enforcement

sendec said:
Blackmind, LE isnt all about kicking down doors.
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And rescue is not AT ALL about law enforcement. So your examples are still moot.


Just because law enforcement also does rescue in some cases does not mean that rescue forces EVER do law enforcement.



You are really falling behind, here, sendec. You claiming victory here for your attempt to justify use of military in civilian affairs is very reminiscent of anti-gunners getting trounced at election time but still saying that they have "won very important victories."


I really feel embarrassed for you, man. Your endless attempts to fight a losing battle are not noble, they're misguided. And they're making you look ridiculous, particularly in this thread.


-blackmind
 
If nothing else, this thread will help members understand who is logical enough to bother reading and who is not.


If I can get just one person to skip right on by sendec's posts, it will be worth it. ;) :p


-blackmind
 
Dude, you win, I am cowed by your brilliance and cannot possible compete with such a superior intellect.

There, feel better?

You're still wrong.
 
Sendec-
Stick to the subject rather than the baiting.

You've (intentionally?) confused search and rescue with Law Enforcement and Emergency Workers with Law Enforcers. The subject here is whether allowing a President to declare martial law at whim and the military to take over police roles against US citizens is a good idea or not.

I suspect it is a good idea in your mind. I've yet to see you object to any conceivable Police action or power in your tenure here. So be it. We know where you stand. Stick to the subject or move on.
Rich
 
"How can you advocate breaking one law to enforce another?"

I'm not advocating anything, I just dont think it would be the end of life as we know it. Its a freakin' poll not an act of congress.
 
Look at what happened in NOLA. Not near enough cops, but mil bases within an easy drive. Its OK to use Guard MPs, why not reserve and RA to assist local LE in times of crisis? The whole military is going to go insane and take over the country? Get real.
 
Its OK to use Guard MPs, why not reserve and RA to assist local LE in times of crisis?
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Because one has a Governor as Commander in Chief and the other has a President. Because of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. Because of Posse Comitatus. Because of the Bonus Army. Because "protection" is not the role of a good soldier; Dominance, control, overwhelming force and killing are his proper skills and role.

But don't let any of that stop you....you're on a roll.

The whole military is going to go insane and take over the country? Get real.
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Nope. But let it happen over a flu epidemic today and it'll happen over a train derailment tomorrow. Before you know it, some future Pres will have RA patrolling "dangerous" urban areas as a matter of course. A generation later, it would be relatively easy for a President, with minimal Pentagon backing, to "postpone" elections until the latest "War" has been brought to a "safe conclusion".

No need to respond, Sendec. I know you don't like responding to my challenges; you haven't since our first direct debate. I wonder why? ;)
Rich
 
Giving the president more power goes against the very grain of the Constitution and balance of powers.

Imagine the following not-so-preposterous situation:

A federal election occurs in Florida. It is very close, and the current president loses by a few votes in the initial count. The election is contested, and we don't know who the real winner is.

The president, with his new powers to declare "state of emergency" without any checks, declares Florida in an state of emergency, and sends in federal troops until the recounting is done to his satisfaction.

This could very easily happen. The whole essence of Posse Commitatus was to keep federal troops from interfering with a state's election.

How quickly people forget high school history... so we are doomed to repeat.
 
How quickly people forget high school history... so we are doomed to repeat
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Wasn't it one of, if not the, critical arguments of the colonists against the King that soldiers were patrolling the streets????

I am fully supportive of our military and their level of professionalism. That being said, they are trained to do one thing, eliminate the enemy. The military is not trained to protect citizens, they are trained to protect themselves.

Law Enforcement is trained to protect our citizens. Does LE always do a perfect job? Not always, but then again LE has to worry about the rights of the citizens. In general, LE upholds these rights and does a superb job.

Military is offensive - LE is defensive. I don't know about you, but I would rather have a group of people out protecting me who are trained to protect first, rather than a group who are trained to take the offensive and kill before being killed. Do I believe the military could ever be used against the citizens of this country? I believe that those in the military would follow orders. If those in power thought it was necessary to control the citizens of this country by force, I have no doubt it would be done effectively.
 
Because "protection" is not the role of a good soldier; Dominance, control, overwhelming force and killing are his proper skills and role.
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Exactly the point I was going to make, Rich. My only mission as a soldier that I am trained to do is fight and win America's wars. Everything else that takes away from training for that mission is detrimental to our national security and should only be done to save Americans, not fight them.
 
Again, police patrol, investigate, apprehend, prosecutors try, juries convict
and judges sentence. People think that using the military for LE is some sort of magic bullet, that you will get search and destroy missions, sweeps, massive roundups, drumhead court martials followed by the firing squad. Nice
fantasy, but let's get real.
 
Got out of the army about 6 months ago. Was an enlisted man in the combat arms. Most of the combat arms are made up of kids from the sticks. Have had this same talk with many many service men. Kids from the country are very unlikely to go and help disarm their fellow county men. Now the ones from the city.... I realize what happened in NO I am just hoping the Guard wasn't involved other than in isolated cases (I know "isolated"...dangerous word). The NG has alway been the last hope of the people.

Shawn
 
Sendec:

Are you sure you want to break the Posse Comitatus Act to use military force on the general public? Using "military force for domestic law enforcement." Should Bush have the power to send the military to New Orleans and allow them to shoot and capture people as the Pentagon or White House sees fit. For the White House to quell a riot in Los Angeles with military force? For the White House to disperse anti-Bush protestors in your hometown with military force?

I'm not advocating anything, I just dont think it would be the end of life as we know it.
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If you're not advocating something, if you're not taking a stand one way or the other, why all the posting?

Again, do you advocate breaking a law to enforce another? Or do you want to hand ultimate power in your state to the president? Don't sidestep it. Answer directly. :)
 
If you're not advocating something, if you're not taking a stand one way or the other, why all the posting?
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Style, Wayne. It's all about style.

Some people take a stand on an issue. Others simply challenge the side they disagree with while arguing that they're just playing Devil's Advocate. The first needs to be able to defend their position. The second responds with, "Hey, I'm not taking any position. Have you defended yours yet?"

There are terms for the style in debating circles. I won't repeat them, but you will generally see it in the lesser lights of Academic Institutions. Real universities take points off for this "style". ;)
Rich
 
It seems that the mentality is, "Save us! Save us! Hand feed us, and give us a bottle of milk! We are helpless--save us, big brother!"
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Yup...

As Gerry Spence said in one of his books, "Faced with the choices of liberty, man cries out for the chains of slavery."
 
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