Clinton's sneak attack on our right to arms

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I agree completely. But there are those that defend that ban or the one on explosive devices as being "reasonable", as Steelheart does. I'm just trying to figure out the logic in saying that one arm that is currently legal is a good 2A weapon, and another restricted one isn't even covered?:confused:
 
But there are those that defend that ban or the one on explosive devices as being "reasonable", as Steelheart does.
LOL!!:D Handy, it is obvious that you are completely out of ideas, as you have now resorted to flat out lying just to keep talking.

I never said any ban ws "reasonable" as you try to claim. I stated what the current law is - I did not say it is "reasonable." Please stop making stuff up just so that you will have something to say - how about sticking to the facts for a change?
 
To be honest GoSlash, I don't know for sure; I have always felt that laws that prevent We The People from owning guns - any type - handguns (even "Sturday Night Specials" - poor people need guns, too), shotguns, self-loading rifles ("assault weapons") bolt or single shot rifles of any caliber are unconstitutional. In this group, I would include select fire rifles and machine guns. They are, after all, guns.

Grenades, mortars, rockets, bombs, missles, etc. are a different category of weapons - this is the opinion I have developed over the years, and while I have no doubt that guns - as I mentioned above - are protected by the Second Amendment, I'm not sure that explosives are.

I did find an article that seems to address this, however. One thing is certain - I will be hunting down a copy of Halbrook's book. (I took the liberty of bold facing paticulrly telling passges).
Right to Bear (Some) Arms

The "civilized-warfare" test excludes firearms that many persons want to be included.


By Dave Kopel of the Independence Institute. This article is based in part on Mr. Kopel's 1998 article in the BYU Law Review, "The Second Amendment in the 19th Century."
June 7, 2001 10:40 a.m.



reader asks: "I have a question about your recent NRO article, "Guns in Court." You state that the Second Amendment only protects the right of individuals to own weapons that can be used in a militia. Does the law specify which weapons can be used in a militia? Can a militia use assault rifles or hand grenades? May individual citizens own every type of weapon currently in use by the National Guard?"

Here's the answer:
The dominant line of nineteenth-century interpretation protected ownership only of weapons suitable for "civilized warfare." This standard was adopted by the U.S. Supreme Court in the 1939 United States v. Miller case. There, the Court allowed defendants who never claimed to be part of any militia (they were bootleggers) to raise a Second Amendment claim. But the Supreme Court rejected the trial court's determination that a federal law requiring the registration and taxation of sawed-off shotguns was facially invalid as a violation of the Second Amendment. Rather, said the Miller Court, a weapon is only covered by the Second Amendment if it might contribute to the efficiency of a well-regulated militia. And the Court could not take judicial notice of militia uses for sawed-off shotguns. The case was remanded for trial (at which the defendants could have offered evidence that sawed-off shotguns have utility in a militia context), but the trial was never held, since the defendants disappeared during the pendency of the government's appeal of the dismissal of their indictment.

A minority line of nineteenth-century arms-rights analysis ? adopted in the twentieth century, for example, by the Oregon Supreme Court ? goes further. This analysis protects not just militia-type weapons, but also weapons which are useful for personal defense, even if not useful in a military context. Thus, the Oregon state constitution's right to arms was held to protect possession of billy clubs and switchblades ? weapons which were pointedly excluded from protection by the civilized warfare cases. State v. Delgado, 298 Or. 395, 692 P.2d 610 (1984)(switchblades); State v. Blocker, 291 Or. 255 (1981) (billy clubs).

With the civilized-warfare test as the constitutional minimum, efforts to ban machine guns or ordinary guns that look like machine guns (so-called "assault weapons") appear constitutionally dubious. These rifles are selected for prohibition because gun-control lobbies claim that the rifles are "weapons of war." This claim, if true, amounts to an admission that the rifles lie at the core of the Second Amendment.

Today, once people understand that "assault weapons" are firearms that are cosmetically threatening but functionally indistinguishable from other long guns, they are willing to accord these arms a place within the right to keep and bear arms. Machine guns, in contrast, really are functionally different. Machine guns are rarely used in crime; and lawfully possessed machine guns, which must be registered with the federal government, are essentially absent from the world of gun crime. Nevertheless, even many people who consider themselves strong Second Amendment supporters cannot bear the thought of a constitutional right to own machine guns.

Attorney Stephen Halbrook, suggests that, "artillery pieces, tanks, nuclear devices and other heavy ordinances are not constitutionally protected" arms, nor are "grenades, bombs, bazookas and other devices ? which have never been commonly possessed for self-defense." (Steven Halbrook, What the Framers Intended: A Linguistic Interpretation of the Second Amendment, 49 L. & CONTEMP. PROB. at 153 (1986).)

But the Halbrook test sidesteps the fact that militia uses, not just personal-defense uses, are part of the core of the Second Amendment. Moreover, the Halbrook test could allow governments to ban new types of guns or weapons, since those weapons, being new, "have never been commonly possessed for self-defense." The test could allow Second Amendment technology to be frozen, as if the government claimed that new communications devices are unprotected by the First Amendment because they have never (heretofore) been commonly used for speech.

Just as the civilized-warfare test protects firearms that many persons want excluded from the Second Amendment, the test also excludes firearms that many persons want to be included. The civilized-warfare cases protected large handguns, but in some applications excluded small, highly concealable handguns. This would suggest that modern bans on small, inexpensive handguns might not violate the Second Amendment. On the other hand, small handguns such as the Colt .25 pistol were used by the United States military during the Second World War. (See Charles W. Pate, "Researching the Martial .25 Colt Pistol," Man at Arms, Jan./Feb. 1995, 20-29.) (Of course, anyone using the civilized-warfare test to make such an argument must also accept the flip side of the civilized-warfare coin: "Assault weapon" prohibition is plainly unconstitutional.)

The nineteenth-century minority theory, however, would recognize small, relatively inexpensive handguns as highly suitable for personal defense, and accord them Second Amendment protection regardless of their militia utility. Twentieth-century constitutional law reflects a special concern for problems of minorities and the poor that was not present in nineteenth-century law. Since a small handgun may be the only effective means of protection that is affordable to a poor person, and since the poor and minorities tend to receive inferior police protection, modern equal-protection analysis might find some problems with banning inexpensive guns, even if one sets aside the Second Amendment. (Note, Markus T. Funk, The Melting Point Case-in-Point, 85 J. CRIM. L. & CRIMINOL. 764 (1995).)

But under the main nineteenth-century line of cases, opponents of banning small handguns must overcome the presumption in those cases that small handguns are not suitable militia weapons; perhaps the frequent and successful use of small handguns in twentieth-century partisan warfare against the Nazis and other oppressive regimes offers one potential line of argument.

Twenty-first century jurisprudence might update the civilized-warfare test by changing the focus from the military to the police. The modern American police, especially at the federal level, resemble in many regards the standing army that so concerned the founders. While the American army is geared toward overseas warfare, the police are oriented toward the type of internal-order functions (e.g., suppression of riots), which were among traditional militia duties. Accordingly, the twenty-first century question, "What are suitable militia-type arms?" might be answered, "Arms that are typical of, or suitable for, police duty." By the modernized test, high-quality handguns (both revolvers and semiautomatics) would lie at the core. Smaller, less expensive handguns (frequently carried by police officers as back-up weapons, often in ankle holsters) would also pass the test easily. Ordinary shotguns and rifles (often carried in patrol cars) would also be protected. Machine guns and other weapons of war are not currently ordinary police equipment, although they are becoming common in special attack units.

Finally, we need to remember Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language, originally published in 1828. That dictionary, which is closer to the origin of the Second Amendment than any other American dictionary, defines "arms" as follows:

"Weapons of offense, or armor for defense and protection of the body ... A stand of arms consists of a musket, bayonet, cartridge-box and belt, with a sword. But for common soldiers a sword is not necessary."

Webster's definition offers two useful insights. First, the distinction sometimes drawn between "offensive" and "defensive" weapons is of little value. All weapons are made for offense, although they may used for defensive purposes (i.e. shooting someone who is attempting to perpetrate a murder), since the best defense sometimes really is a good offense.

Second, Webster reminds us that "arms" are not just weapons. "Arms" also include defensive armor. This suggests very serious constitutional problems with proposals to outlaw possession of bullet-resistant body armor by persons outside the government.
My position may or may not be correct; if it is not and some compelling proof can be offered that grenades, etc. are covered under the terms of the Second Amendment, I will gladly stand corrected.
 
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Again, you are confusing 2A, the protection of "arms" with some mythical amendment which protects "guns". I challenge you to find "gun", "rifle", "pistol" or "firearm" anywhere in the Bill of Rights.


And I don't think you're misunderstanding what you posted, since this:
Attorney Stephen Halbrook, suggests that, "artillery pieces, tanks, nuclear devices and other heavy ordinances are not constitutionally protected" arms, nor are "grenades, bombs, bazookas and other devices ? which have never been commonly possessed for self-defense."
is immediately followed by this critique:
But the Halbrook test sidesteps the fact that militia uses, not just personal-defense uses, are part of the core of the Second Amendment.
Which echoes the Miller case which he earlier mentioned:
Rather, said the Miller Court, a weapon is only covered by the Second Amendment if it might contribute to the efficiency of a well-regulated militia.


The "civilized warfare" stuff is stated as a theory, and a problematic one at that since it doesn't recognize any weapon that doesn't have direct application to 19th century warfare.


The author gives an overview of the various views on the Second Amendment without ever bearing allegiance to any one. Instead, he summarizes their logical and practical weaknesses. The bit you highlighted that calls for the seperation of non-firearm arms from the meaning of the amendment is clearly something the author finds fault with, though he doesn't state it outright.


In summary, the article does nothing to support your claim that "arms" are firearms only, or that their civil availability has any bearing on their suitability for the "well regulated militia". And if you read the section relating the context to the First Amendment, the author is pretty obviously hinting that future arms are also covered, just as future forms of speech (like the internet) are as well.
 
As I said above -
My position may or may not be correct; if it is not and some compelling proof can be offered that grenades, etc. are covered under the terms of the Second Amendment, I will gladly stand corrected.
I will dig into this further. I will say that I have never before heard a qualified commentator (Constitutional scholar, Constitutional law attorney, etc.) assert that the Second Amendment covers grenades, mortars, etc. (at least not that I have read or heard). The focus has always been pistols, shotguns, rifles, etc.

Even if grenades, etc. are covered under the Second Amendment, I doubt that we will ever be able to buy and own them.

I don't ask for much - I'd be happy if the antigun bigots and their lap dog politicians would leave us alone with the arms we have, do away with the nonsense regulation of silencers and select fire rifles, give us nationwide carry reciprocity and never again allow a so-called "assault weapon" ban, magazine ban, or a New Orleans style gun confiscation.

Of course, that's not their plan...
 
What Handy said.
The 2nd reads "The right to keep and bear arms", not guns. And the militia clause clearly anticipates military weaponry. After all, what kind of militia would be required to defend us against deer?
Placing restrictions on what kinds of weapons may be kept (i.e. infringement) is clearly unconstitutional.
Notice that the case cited (Miller) specifically allowed the tax on sawed-off shotguns on the grounds that they weren't military, not that they were.
Had the defendants been present for the case, they could have easily shown that sawed-off shotguns were in widespread military use at the time and Miller would have gone the other way.
 
steelheart,
It keeps coming back to this; it's just not the liberals. The Republicans have had complete control of our government for the last 4 years, yet nobody has even attempted to overturn gca '69 or nfa '34. Why not? Because they don't want to. I keep tellin' ya, it's not a left vs. right thing, it's a freedom vs. government thing.
But that's neither here nor there.
I will settle for the current state of affairs, but only if it's arrived at within the law according to the constitution. If the second amendment needs rescinded or re-written then it is incumbent upon them to amend the constitution, not ignore it.
 
Perhaps Handy is right - I'm going to see what I can find to either prove or disprove his position on "arms". My position that guns but not explosive devices is a result of the fact that -
I have never before heard a qualified commentator (Constitutional scholar, Constitutional law attorney, etc.) assert that the Second Amendment covers grenades, mortars, etc. (at least not that I have read or heard). The focus has always been pistols, shotguns, rifles, etc.
The debate seems to have always centered around small arms; I don't recall ever hearing anyone assert that military explosive arms were covered under the Second Amendment.
 
oh jeez

Where do you live at man, a f-ing cave??? Everyone knows that explosives can be made out of anything, like chicken droppings mixed with diesel fuel, and an over the counter Oxygen cylinder, and of course Nitrogen fertilizer just to name a few examples. Farmers used to blow tree stumps with chicken dung and diesel fuel mix. All you need is a good booster charge. You need to take the blinders off (and you know who you are). It's already there, and I don't see anyone being killed by it. Just like everything else, I could own and posses a cobra attack helicopter complete with weapon systems and ammo. That doesn't mean that I would ever want to hurt anyone with it, I would though suppose that my neighbors might be a little nicer. HA...

Not be infringed means simply that! Or let's just let that term be whittled away until it's down to a toothpick, and by that time it will be way too late. I don't mean to sound rude, but some of you need to pull your heads out of your arse end and get with the program here. IMHO.

or...there is an excellent forum here and maybe you could make better use of your time there...just a suggestion:)
 
Strikehold

I think it essential that we all consider the fact that we are all in support of the second amendment. Insults are not constructive and detract from the overall discussion. I am personally of the belief that the second was infact intended to allow the civillian militia to be in possession of the same weapons as the military. The object was to prevent a return to tyranny. I will not insult someone who does not understand it the same way, I will simply do my best to help them to see the light. It is essential to remember that we must all stand together or we will surely fall separately.
 
So ANYWAY...

If a person as pro-2nd Amdt as Steelheart here finds a limit to what's constitutionally protected and what's not....or scratch that. Can accept someone else's limit at the point between explosive devices and firearms, who's to say who's evil and who's not based on where they draw the line?
The vast majority of Americans want a limit somewhere. It's just a matter of where the limit is. You see anyone that limits it at (for example) muzzleloaders as an evil gun-grabbing liberal, yet someone like strike-hold here might see you in the same light by stopping short of hand grenades.
We can see here why simply labeling someone as "the enemy" isn't effective.
It shuts down communication and casts you out as a reactionary loony.
Yes, there are gun-grabbing liberals out there. I've seen them. But they are a small fringe group, not indicative of half the country.
Most people are like yourself; willing to look into it and re-think their position.

If you just give them the chance.
 
Gun Grabbers

I think you are correct. Most Americans are not on the fringe. Unfortunately, many of the ones who are hold positions of influence and tend to push their opinions on the rest of us. I am speaking of course of politicians. Whether on the left or on the right, it makes their lives easier if the populace they govern is defenseless. An armed people, after all, is not easily enslaved.
 
The Republicans have had complete control of our government for the last 4 years, yet nobody has even attempted to overturn gca '69 or nfa '34. Why not? Because they don't want to. I keep tellin' ya, it's not a left vs. right thing, it's a freedom vs. government thing.
You do have a valid point here, GoSlash. It was a huge step in the right direction that the Republicans in the Senate & House let the Clinton gun ban sunset; look how much hell they caught for that. It would be 100x worse if they were to try to strike down GCA '68 or the NFA '34.

In spite of that, if they were truly concerned with a return to Constitutional government and preserving the Second Amendment, they would overturn both NFA '34 and GCA '68; but then that would erode their power.

The truth is, the Second Amendment is inconvenient for all politicians, due to its true purpose - the prevention of arbitrary rule. Politicians want more and more power; the only way they get it is by ensuring that citizens have less and less rights. Some politicians hate it more than others, judging from their words, actions and voting history.
If the second amendment needs rescinded or re-written then it is incumbent upon them to amend the constitution, not ignore it.
I can't go along with you on that one, though.

We don't need politicians rescinding or rewriting any amendment contained in the Bill of Rights to suit their purposes. We need politicians who live up to their oath of office and who honor and obey the Bill of Rights (what a concept).
 
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Don't get me wrong...

Don't get me wrong; I didn't mean to insult or offend anyone. I just had to let that out. Everyone has different perceptions on everything. I even found humor within my own response, even though I don't consider it a joking matter. Happy Easter everyone!:)
 
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