Cleaning Rod Controversy

R

RC20

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This started in Wendy cleaning copper issue and jumped into the perils of cleaning rods.

I thought it was an interesting take by others, not sure this is quite the right place but seems so to me.

It was stated that aluminum and glass rods embed grit and wreck rifles.

I don't keep a pile of gravel in my shop though I won't claim its grit free.

I also don't have diamond grit around period.

A sane commons sense approach says that if you feel anything on your rod, you clean it off.

The rod also tends to be centered in the bore though it does make contact.

From geology class and metal working, in order to wear something, it needs to be harder.

I have also seen a study where they guys beat the daylights out of the crown and still had good accuracy.

While a lot of factors go into how a barrel shoots, I don't think that wearing it by cleaning has the least bit of anything to do with it.

What does is flame front eating out the throat and or enough rounds the lands get worn down.

Last time I checked I can't run a cleaning rod at 3000 fpm and I don't think brass or nylon bristles and a patch quality as an abrasive item.

I sure don't' fire up a torch and put it in the bore before I run the rod down it.
 
Some people believe anything they see in a gun rag or on the internet. I've used aluminum, wood and brass rods and cleaned from the muzzle without a rod guide for right at 50 years and haven't messed up a barrel yet.
 
This started in Wendy cleaning copper issue and jumped into the perils of cleaning rods.

I thought it was an interesting take by others, not sure this is quite the right place but seems so to me.

It was stated that aluminum and glass rods embed grit and wreck rifles.
I don't keep a pile of gravel in my shop though I won't claim its grit free.
I also don't have diamond grit around period.

The grit is from the ammo (primer), not your environment. Everything matters if you really care about accuracy and longevity and if not nothing matters. You dont even have to clean the gun. Plastic coated rods are the worse and stainless is the best. If you dont understand then go back to those sources and read with an open mind.

A sane commons sense approach says that if you feel anything on your rod, you clean it off.

Not good enough, the stuff will imbed into plastic

The rod also tends to be centered in the bore though it does make contact.

Most folks, who care, use a bore guide to minimize contact, but; it still happens

From geology class and metal working, in order to wear something, it needs to be harder.

Not really, your finger will wear down a penny. The idea is aluminum and plastic are soft. In practice it turns out better to use one piece stainless rod and a bore guide.

I have also seen a study where they guys beat the daylights out of the crown and still had good accuracy.

Not on my gun.

While a lot of factors go into how a barrel shoots, I don't think that wearing it by cleaning has the least bit of anything to do with it.

Totally wrong! I have seen a lot of great of model 52 winchester with barrels ruinded from cleaning and many more cut short to try and salvage the barrel from cleaning. Sadly a 22LR needs no cleaning, but atleast it must be done very carefuly to get that last 1-5% accuracy for competition.

What does is flame front eating out the throat and or enough rounds the lands get worn down.

Agreed. Caliber dependent in 1000's of rounds for centerfire, I guess. And can be ruined quicker by cleaning

Last time I checked I can't run a cleaning rod at 3000 fpm and I don't think brass or nylon bristles and a patch quality as an abrasive item.
I sure don't' fire up a torch and put it in the bore before I run the rod down it.

If you are asking, cleaning should be done very carefully. If you want a debate, I am not going to play the game. I leave it to others.
 
From geology class and metal working, in order to wear something, it needs to be harder.
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Rock is harder than water, yet, we have the Grand Canyon. It just takes longer.

But to the point of your post, basically I agree. You can ruin a barrel from improper cleaning and using inferior tools. But it will take a long time and if the person doing the cleaning uses common sense they can be used. I think the bigger problem is over cleaning. Most rifle barrels can go 200-500 rounds without any cleaning.

But on the other hand in the long term it doesn't really cost that much more to buy better tools. I've used aluminum in the past, but no longer do.
 
I already said what I have to say.You can cut and paste it here if you want to liven things up.
 
The thing about Aluminum cleaning rods.....

The surface of aluminum develops a very thin layer of aluminum oxide that is very hard and abrasive. They make grinding wheels out of it. My guess is that the best cleaning rod is probably hard brass, wiped clean. Maybe I'll get one someday.
 
This argument started around 1860, about the same time as breech loading rifles came along Nothing new to report.

Jim
 
I would guess there is a smidge of truth in all the above. On the other hand, there are more concerns that have a accumulating affect over time.
Like the suggestion that water isn't as hard as rock yet we have the grand canyon. Time, grit and dissolving materials have much more to do with that than anything else.
Anyway, back in the day, velocities were quite low compared to todays desire to shoot out further than the eye can see. Steels have changed. Slow velocities were just what the old steel needed, todays would have worn it out very quickly. We have some pretty tough steels today along with some very high velocities. Shoot over the 2900 fps and you will wear out a barrel in anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand rounds. I know bench shooters that are in the mid 3,000's and they get something like 250 to 350 rounds out of a barrel. The 6.5 creemoor shooters are getting about 2500 to 3500 out of those barrels if they are lucky.

And we worry about cleaning those barrels?
 
Who here is actually that good of a shot to notice any deterioration in accuracy from their guns due to cleaning?
Be honest, now. :)
 
The benchresters are burning out throats with often hot loadings combined with, say, 6mm bullets. Not trashing the rifling with improper cleaning (not that they do) is still important because often they'll set back the breech and re-chamber rather than buy a new barrel if it shoots tiny bugholes.
 
Not me!

What it amounts to is realistically clearing a barrel is not going to damage it.

a barrel is worn out in about 6 seconds.

That's how long it takes to run 5-10k down it at something around 2800 fps (we will use that as an average, some a lot more, a lot pretty close and some a lot less)

So I am supposed to be convinced that an extremely slow rod even embedded with some grit is going to wear out a barrel when it takes a copper bullet 6 seconds of total run time to do the same thing?

No heat, no friction, no flame front.

As noted water wears out rock, . Water cutting is common, at extremely high velocities. Otherwise it takes water hundreds of millions of years to wear out rock and it does it 7x24x365 by 100 million.

note you can wear a penny down, but if a penny is harder than your finger nail, the nail wears out first, so the rod should be a flimsy skinny broken thing. To actually mark a penny, it has to be harder. to cut steel down (not wear it down, we aren't moving a rod back 24 x 100 million years) it has to be harder. Water through a barrel will wear it down, but not in my lifetime (more like 100 million years)

And embedded is as embedded does. If you can't feel it then its either sub surface or not there at all.

So at worst you have something the size of a pin embedded in a rod that makes intermit if any contact with a barrel and that wears it out?

Seriously? It not like we have the hope diamond embedded there (if anything) . A bit of powder residue that has just flame fronted down the bore at 2800 fps is now going to wear it out even if you drag it back in?

Shop full of diamond grit?

http://www.6mmbr.com/borebrushing.html

These guys do it serious and they don't agree on much of anything..
 
A fellow RevWar reenactor made a cleaning rod for his Brown Bess using a wooden dowel/shaft, has a jag/brush holder at one, a handle on the other, is several inches longer than the barrel.
 
I don't care what material any cleaning rod is made of, I'm always careful to keep the rod from touching the crown when using it and always am careful to keep the strokes as minimal as needed and as straight as possible when using. If the rod doesn't touch the bore or the crown, the material it's made of becomes a moot issue. I will say, though, that a rod made from s/s is easier (more "rigid" and not as prone to "flexing" as aluminum might be) to keep straight when applying strokes.
 
dgludwig said:
I don't care what material any cleaning rod is made of, I'm always careful to keep the rod from touching the crown when using it and always am careful to keep the strokes as minimal as needed and as straight as possible when using. If the rod doesn't touch the bore or the crown, the material it's made of becomes a moot issue. I will say, though, that a rod made from s/s is easier (more "rigid" and not as prone to "flexing" as aluminum might be) to keep straight when applying strokes.
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Ahh, so much funnyness! Water erosion has a lot more to do with mineral solubility and extreme amounts of time. The simple truth is that even with extreme carelessness bore damage is quite difficult to produce without extreme carelessness being present concurrently.


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LavaTech said:
Ahh, so much funnyness! Water erosion has a lot more to do with mineral solubility and extreme amounts of time. The simple truth is that even with extreme carelessness bore damage is quite difficult to produce without extreme carelessness being present concurrently.


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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Wow, I think I'll skip trying to post from my phone while at Disneyland from now on. I couldn't make such a gibberish post from my laptop at home.

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I'll stick with my tipton single piece carbon fiber rod. Came with a nice brass guide I can usually find. I hardly ever use a rod though. They went out with front stuffers :)
 
From geology class and metal working, in order to wear something, it needs to be harder.
Click to expand...
Aluminum is softer than steel. However, Aluminum Oxide, something that is on the outside of all Aluminum that is exposed to Oxygen, is so hard it is used for sandpaper. At one time I worked at a company that machined Aluminum components for copy machines. The plant engineer complained that the steel fixtures and jigs wore out way too fast where the Aluminum parts were inserted and removed. He said he could not figure it out because after all, "Aluminum was way softer than the steel". So it is with uncoated Aluminum cleaning rods...they are coated with Aluminum Oxide.
As for something needing to be harder to wear something down that is softer, just take a look at the diamond used to dress surface grinding wheels. The diamond will show wear despite the fact it is (was...something harder has been created recently), the hardest substance known to man...harder still than the grinding wheels. So, in that theory, the diamond should have stayed just as sharp as when it was mounted in the dressing block. So much for assumptions.
 
Last time I went to Perry ('06 & '07), the Marines and Army team shooters were using Dewey coated rods, cleaning from the breach and using a guide...good enough for me...that's what I do. Rod
 
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