Cleaning carbon from barrel with CLR

I use both mineral spirits and acetone in my business so pilfering a cup now and then isn't a problem. I'm the boss so there's no one to complain... :)

Like Ed always said automatic transmission fluid is a great gun oil and I always have an extra bottle around for the truck and take what I need for my guns. The last ingredient deodorized kerosene, isn't a problem either. I keep some on hand for my oil lamps in case of a power outage.

So I mix it up a quart at a time and I have a couple old steel gunpowder cans that I keep it in. One of the great things is one can afford to have enough on hand to soak larger gun parts in like M1911 frame or a whole revolver if needed...

Back to reloading, Ed used to say to take a tumbler of fresh media and dump in an ounce of Ed's Red and then run it with the lid off until the clumps all broke up and the media looked dry. Then it would do a better job of cleaning cases. I can't remember if I ever tried that but since all my tumbling media is dirty, I'll try it with the next tumbler full. I had gotten a bottle of Midway brass cleaner and polish with my tumbler all those years ago and I finally finished it up...

I do miss the FidoNet days but times change... I think most of the guys on that forum have passed on, or at least the ones I knew best have.

Tony
 
I haven't tried it in a tumbler. Something to do some time.


AzShooter,

I think the MPro-7 line was an answer to the Bore Tech products that came out in the early 2000s (at least, that's when I became aware of them). All are water-based and odorless (for all practical purposes). They all have effective corrosion inhibitors such that you can let them dry out in a bore without any concern for rust starting.
 
Longshot back

I sure am glad to have Firing Line on line. You guys always have good information for me. I have been using Mpro-7 although I haven't been soaking long enough it seams. When I seen the CLR video I was wondering what the opinions of the group would be. And now I have it. I feel I can understand the negative as well as the positive information. I also thought that it needed to be brought out for others to read. So I am a little bet smarter because of it. Thanks to all of you
 
Unclenick, I’ll order some of the Boretech C4. The Eliminator is Ok on carbon, but these days I only reach for it when I want the copper gone or reduced.
 
This thread got me thinking so last evening I had a mildly dirty barrel to clean, 50 rounds of H 4350. I pulled out the borescope and took a snapshot about 6 inches from the end of the barrel. Ran a nylon brush with CLR down it followed by three dry patches and ran the borescope back down to the same spot. I used a wet CLR patch followed by another dry to finish off the carbon. But that first pass knocked about 90% of it off

It took another 10 patches rotating one wet with ProShot copper remover followed by two dry using to get that copper out but the CLR took the the carbon right out. I think I over Iosso'ed the barrel the previous cleaning which led to the excess copper. You don't want a barrel too clean ;)
 

Attachments

  • CLR.jpg
    CLR.jpg
    34.8 KB · Views: 29
I doubt it can hurt stainless.

I don't know about the too-smooth theory. I know Lilja says they've confirmed it with extensive testing, but I would like to know how they did the testing and measured the fouling level. About twenty years ago I had Compass Lake build me a service rifle match gun and at the time the Blackstar electropolished barrels were still available so I decided to try one. It cleans very easily after a match and always has. Shoots ½ moa and always has. I think there's another, as-yet unidentified factor involved.
 
Always been told the theory behind "breaking in" was to fill any small pits and holes . Whatever the reason that Shilen has 350 rounds down it and still wants to lay copper down in the last 5 or 6 inches of barrel, 30 inch barrel. My Criterion barrels normally settle in around 200 -250 at most. Anyway I will lay of the Iosso for a while, the throat looks like a mirror now. I generally just go straight to the Pro Shot for the copper but want to try the Gunzilla and the Boretech C4 soon. I always enjoy trying new stuff.

BTW Erik Cortina was the captain of the US F class team a few years back, and has also been captain of Team Brux of Brux barrels. If he recommends CLR I seriously doubt it will hurt a barrel. I might hesitate use it on a 1950's barrel but has not seemed to bother my new match barrels at all
 
I seem to recall that when CLR first came on the market it used phosphoric acid, but the current SDS says Gluconic and Lactic Acid are used. Apparently the former is most active in high pH and the latter in a low pH and both are descalers. So the idea must be that you have both bases covered. Just about any acid will attack copper. The Lauramine Oxide in it is a surfactant, which is probably helping with carbon.

The drawback is it is a skin irritant, though I suppose most gun cleaners are.

Humpy (Hummer70 on this board) did a barrel break-in he reported on another board that may interest you. Just 3 shots involved in his example. It is described in posts 1, 8, and 11.
 
thanks for the link Nick, not sure if I want to take a chance on "hydroing " a barrel though

page 5 of this link https://bordenrifles.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Barrel_cleaning_edited.pdf

I do not recommend
using any gun oils or other such lubricants for this last step as most of them
have too high a viscosity and will leave too thick a lubrication film that can
actually cause hydraulic damage to the barrel when it is fired.
Click to expand...

I recall reading about this issue years ago, probably in a old copy of Outdoor Life in a barber shop or somewhere. Googled the term and came up with this.

I can't believe I have been cleaning rifles for 60 years and still learning new things
 
Last edited:
Humpy is a two-time U.S. Palma champion who had a career as a firearm Test Director and Incident Investigator at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, so he knows his stuff, and I'm confident he isn't steering us wrong with this one. The thin oil film won't hurt anything because it lacks enough mass and volume. What it solves is copper coming off a break-in bullet rather than pressing the catching edge down. If you've ever used a burnishing tool with the old rub-on lettering, you'll be familiar with the need for an intermediate layer between the tool and the object you are burnishing to keep the burnishing pressure normal to the work and without sliding or dragging action, and that's what the oil film provides.

It is the case that copper builds up upon itself because rubbing two pieces of the same metal together achieves maximum metal-on-metal friction. Accumulated copper increases bullet friction and narrows the bore, with the result pressure increases and barrel time shortens. So it tunes the load some, and I suspect that is what people are seeing as an "advantage" to having some copper present. But I've shot enough moly bullets and treated bores that didn't hold copper in significant measure to know you can tune a load not to depend on the presence of anything more than the usual powder fouling.

Cleaning chemicals will remove copper or carbon if they are any good, so if barrel break-in were to depend on retaining that stuff, you would have to do it over after each good cleaning. Indeed, loads tuned to a degree of copper fouling are not going to perform their best after thorough cleaning until you build some copper fouling back up again, and you see observation of that effect mentioned by folks referring to "overcleaning." But that's not a break-in. That is a more elaborate version of shooting fouling shots. By contrast, barrel break-in is something you do once in a barrel's life, and burnishing the bore surface and causing some stresses to take a set are the only things I can think of that are permanent effects from firing the initial shots.
 
Well just as a follow up did another 30 rounds through the barrel again today. The CLR cleared the carbon in 5 patches, last 6 inches of the barrel coppered up again. Barrel is shooting great, a pair of .5 MOA 15 round verticals @300, wind and load tune( I still have not messed with seating depth) got me on the horizontals but no flyers in 30 rounds. I got most of the copper out with Proshot. I am gonna see how it shoots leaving some in. If if continues to shoot well then good. If not order a Criterion in either 260 AI or 6.5 CM. Third option is to take 8 inches off the barrel and recrown it
 
GEEZERBIKER has the right idea.
My first soaks of a black & fouled Barrel ... Is with Kano Kroil ( Zep 45) penetrating oils . A light scrub, soaked patches swab again , & leave wet for 4 hours.
Clean as you would , as regular, then repeat same process with Ed's Red ... Vigorous brushing in between swabs of solvent.
Elbow grease is the required Additive ... Brush , brush and brush again.
 
I've made every effort to get away from spending effort on elbow grease or multiple applications of cleaners. I bought a travel-size pump sprayer from Walmart and keep Bore Tech Eliminator in it and carry a small assortment of silicone rubber plugs with me. At the end of the range session, I take the bolt out, tilt the muzzle down and pump about three mist doses into the chamber and watch the liquid run down the barrel. When it gets to the muzzle I stick a stopper into it and then a chamber plug or a large stopper in the back end and the gun takes the hour-long ride home like that. At home I wet a patch with Eliminator and push it through, followed by a second one to check for anything that might remain. Usually it is nothing and I run a dry patch and an oily patch and am done.
 
I think I will skip the part with the elbow grease also. Think what you will about CLR it does get the carbon out quick. I think it took about 5 wet patches yesterday to get 99% of the carbon. Now if the copper was that easy :(

BTW Nick , your buddy Humpy may be/have been a great shooter but I followed that thread to this one

https://www.shootersforum.com/threads/rifle-cleaning-home-brews.6960/

and I will say this emphatically , never never ever use his copper cleaning formula. I worked with anhydrous ammonia in warehouse refrigeration systems and I would never put any sort of ammonia, even the mild household stuff into any barrel that I gave a darn about. We all know it is bad for brass but it isn't exactly kind to carbon steel either. Even in stainless is not entirely safe for use. God forbid it ever getting into your trigger system or on any of the springs or other non stainless parts in the rifle
 
Last edited:
Oh, there are lots and lots of ammoniated bore cleaners out there. Montana Extreme is so strong it about reamed me a new nostril the first time I opened it. Sweet's 7.62, TM solution, Butch's Bore Shine. All with strong NH4 fumes. The trick is what else is in there with it. The Butch's Boreshine maker told me he immersed a piece of steel in their ammoniated solvent for six months and had it inspected under an electron microscope, and they found no sign of any effect on the steel surface.

Some years ago (probably 20), I spoke to a chemist at the factory that sells the plain ammonia solution that ACE Hardware markets. He said everything hinges on the concentration and corrosion inhibitors. For example, he said a few drops of ammonia is often placed in 55-gallon drums before shipping to prevent corrosion, an application I'd never heard of before. In a solution, it will depend on pH and what else you put in with it, as the Boreshine example shows.

I did once dissolve a stuck case out of a sizing die with just the ACE (5%, IIRC) ammonia with no corrosion inhibitors or anything else. It did turn the die surface brown with fine rust, but it took weeks. So I don't think Humpy's solution can cause an issue diluted as it is and with dishwashing detergent and the more dilute sudsy ammonia, which will pull the pH down. He's just not applying it long enough to cause a problem.

I don't use any of the strongly ammoniated cleaners any longer, not out of fear of gun damage, but because they don't work nearly as quickly as the water-base chelating chemistry. Bore Tech says their Cu++ solvent removes copper and, in effect, sequesters it, so the dissolving strength of the solution goes on unchanged as it works. The Bore Tech product turns dark blue. It is also very fast. You can't push a brass jag with a wet patch of it through a bore faster than it can turn the patch blue by etching the copper out of the brass jag. They actually sell a line of jags made of an alloy that doesn't react with it called their "Proof Positive" jags because if the patches come out white, you know the copper is truly gone.

KG-12 contains the tiniest bit of ammonia that I can smell, but it is so faint I'm guessing its only role is to adjust pH. KG-12 is probably the most aggressive copper remover I've seen. Soaking overnight, it stripped 0.002" plating completely off a soft steel jacketed pull-down bullet I had from some surplus Iron Curtain era S&B ammo. Its only drawback is it doesn't turn blue or green; just darker orange/brown. But I spray a little into a coppered bore and wait 20 minutes, and the copper is just gone!
 
it all depends on the steel Nick, most barrels probably not but there are a lot of other types of steel in the rifle. I worked with industrial anhydrous which is 99.9% pure for 8 years. Household ammonia is around 7%, janitorial grade 25% All the pipes etc were steel but it had to be the right alloy of steel.

Ammonia will dissolve copper, that is for sure. Just the fumes in the compressor rooms at that warehouse would affect the electrical systems. We checked for thermal hot spots using a infrared every 6 months.


Anyway, yes ammonia is a great de coppering agent but no I do not want it around my rifles. Not becasue it would harm the barrel but because of the other parts of the rifle that could corrode
 
Hounddawg,

I understand your thinking and don't care to use ammonia myself. I am just saying that so many folks and cleaners do use it that it is not disqualifying of anybody's expertise that they use it, too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top