Cleaning at the range. Recommended?
- Thread starter Pond James Pond
- Start date
4runnerman
New member
Not to pick here ( I mean that ), But it just seem's like these are the situations that we see here in other post's about someone that bought a rifle and it took him 5 days to clean it because previous owner never cleaned it. It seems when that happens here, Most are on the side of ,,( guy just never took care of his rifle ).
The other story is--Cleaning a rifle to much does more damage than not cleaning it. BS to that. Maybe if you are using a cast iron cleaning rod. I have my first 223 with well over 18,000 rounds down it now. Still shoots 1/4 MOA. Rifle gets cleaned every 50 rounds. How many cleanings does that come to now in it's life?.
Most Bench Rest Shooters will clean fast in between follies, some will run maybe 100 rounds in between.
If like MarkCO, You can get away with it,then as I said to him-More power to ya.
The other story is--Cleaning a rifle to much does more damage than not cleaning it. BS to that. Maybe if you are using a cast iron cleaning rod. I have my first 223 with well over 18,000 rounds down it now. Still shoots 1/4 MOA. Rifle gets cleaned every 50 rounds. How many cleanings does that come to now in it's life?.
Most Bench Rest Shooters will clean fast in between follies, some will run maybe 100 rounds in between.
If like MarkCO, You can get away with it,then as I said to him-More power to ya.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
4runnerman said:
Actually... yes, I do. That's why I love synthetic oil.
Did a rebuild on my Subaru this summer (bad headgasket). 239,000 miles with Mobil1 at 8-12k miles between changes and you can still see the cross-hatching in the cylinder walls.My .204 has probably had the bore cleaned (besides initial break-in) 3 or 4 times since I got it in 2004. Like I said, I cleaned it this year just because it seemed like the thing to do. I kept reading about all this "copper fouling" and how bad it gets and I'm like "Hm, never even had copper cleaner in this thing, let's try it!" Previously I'd only used Eezox.
I got this foaming copper bore cleaner and gave it a whirl. Very slight tinges of blue, nothing like I hear about, and then nothing. Gun shot fine before (with probably 1/2 of it's 800-900 round life through it since last cleaning) and shoots fine now.
I hear a lot of people poo-pooing barrel break-ins but I've ALWAYS done it on my guns and I've NEVER had one that fouled badly.
My .204 shoots like this at 100 (0.368MOA) and right about 3" at 400. All. The. Time. (Yes, I know all about 3 shot grous
)4runnerman
New member
Brian- I do not doubt you. That is why I said if you can get away with it, More power to you. I choose to keep my barrel clean. Last week I was out with a few guys at the range also. 5 shot group 100 yards .151 for the group.All shots in bullseye.Not just a good group. Putting 5 shots in a dime size group high or off to side is good shooting,but means you missed the target 5 times in a row. Also as I have stated- The groups you shoot,The accuracy you keep,the fouling of your barrel. It all depends on the quality of the barrel you have,the powder you shoot,ect ect. I use my 5 fouler shots and by the 3rd one I am right back on target. I have pushed my riifles to over 100 rounds and watched my accuracy disapear. i also do not really shoot for groups ,so to say. I shoot for bulls eyes. I have treated all my rifles and my pistol barrels and that could be a deciding fact in my situation also. I have a 223 with over 18,000 rounds down it and it still shoots 1/4 MOA at 100 yards very easy.
as for oil In your car, I also have a 2006 Subaru with a bad head gasket. I use Mobile synthetic oil to,but I still change it every 5000 miles. My test to you is
change your oil,Mark your mileage with new oil (mpg) and then do the same test after you have 12,000 miles on it. I bet you mpg is lower.
as for oil In your car, I also have a 2006 Subaru with a bad head gasket. I use Mobile synthetic oil to,but I still change it every 5000 miles. My test to you is
change your oil,Mark your mileage with new oil (mpg) and then do the same test after you have 12,000 miles on it. I bet you mpg is lower.
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Packing grease in the bore, bolt and such is MUCH different. The packing greases cause other issues.
As for accuracy fall off, there is a difference between a $500 hand-lapped barrel and a production $200 barrel. My Kreiger .223, at about 150 rounds goes from .3" 100 groups to .5" 100 yard groups and by the time I hit 250, it is at about .7", but never got any worse. OTOH, one of my .308s starts off at .7" 100 yards groups and after 200 rounds is maybe .8" groups if you cock your head to one side.
I adhered to the old wives tales of breaking in barrels too, until I read some things that made me doubt the practice and did my own testing. I get to play with a lot of barrels, specifically the Nordic AR-15 barrels of my own design. I have put them through the rigorous break in procedure, a medium procedure and then just shot them. What I found is that regardless of the break-in procedure, or lack thereof, the accuracy reaches the same point at about 200 rounds. I've done 3 60 round, back to back mag dumps on a brand new barrel. 180 rounds in under a minute. Guess what, same accuracy and lifespan as a barrel that had the 6 hours of laborious break procedure. I have done the same thing with sister .308 barrels, but not quite the same rate of fire.
It has NOTHING to do with what you can get away with, it has to due with metallurgy and the laws of physics. Sure, if you shoot crappy ammo, you should clean more, but at least 90% of all cleaning is completely worthless as are "break-in" procedures.
I have sectioned a lot of barrels, and the throats and crowns on some of the "shot out barrels" had numerous gouges in them. Had a guy that was going through a barrel every 1K. I cut 1/10th of an inch off the chamber end, re-chambered, re-crowned and re-installed it. Went from his 100 yard pattern of 1.3" to .3" at 100 yards in an indoor tube. He stopped cleaning it every 10 rounds (goes about 100 now) and he gets a consistent 3K through it before the accuracy falls off.
Sub-MOA guns, more frequent cleaning makes some difference. In MOA+ guns, it makes very little to no difference.
Oh, and I worked in an oil analysis lab for 3 years testing and grading samples. But that is another topic.
As for accuracy fall off, there is a difference between a $500 hand-lapped barrel and a production $200 barrel. My Kreiger .223, at about 150 rounds goes from .3" 100 groups to .5" 100 yard groups and by the time I hit 250, it is at about .7", but never got any worse. OTOH, one of my .308s starts off at .7" 100 yards groups and after 200 rounds is maybe .8" groups if you cock your head to one side.
I adhered to the old wives tales of breaking in barrels too, until I read some things that made me doubt the practice and did my own testing. I get to play with a lot of barrels, specifically the Nordic AR-15 barrels of my own design. I have put them through the rigorous break in procedure, a medium procedure and then just shot them. What I found is that regardless of the break-in procedure, or lack thereof, the accuracy reaches the same point at about 200 rounds. I've done 3 60 round, back to back mag dumps on a brand new barrel. 180 rounds in under a minute. Guess what, same accuracy and lifespan as a barrel that had the 6 hours of laborious break procedure. I have done the same thing with sister .308 barrels, but not quite the same rate of fire.
It has NOTHING to do with what you can get away with, it has to due with metallurgy and the laws of physics. Sure, if you shoot crappy ammo, you should clean more, but at least 90% of all cleaning is completely worthless as are "break-in" procedures.
I have sectioned a lot of barrels, and the throats and crowns on some of the "shot out barrels" had numerous gouges in them. Had a guy that was going through a barrel every 1K. I cut 1/10th of an inch off the chamber end, re-chambered, re-crowned and re-installed it. Went from his 100 yard pattern of 1.3" to .3" at 100 yards in an indoor tube. He stopped cleaning it every 10 rounds (goes about 100 now) and he gets a consistent 3K through it before the accuracy falls off.
Sub-MOA guns, more frequent cleaning makes some difference. In MOA+ guns, it makes very little to no difference.
Oh, and I worked in an oil analysis lab for 3 years testing and grading samples. But that is another topic.
I guess some people like to clean & some don't. I'm a bench rest shooter, clean after 25 rounds. Takes 3 foul shots and i'm in the game. Don't see having a problem with a clean barrel to start off with, but you could have a problem with a fouled barrel, why take the chance. I'm old school. Thats my 2 cents, hope I helped in some way Chris
Pond James Pond
New member
I'm happy to clean and do so after every trip. I suppose what I wanted to know is if it was wise to clean at the range if it were a particularly heavy day of shooting. So far it seems the only reference to this is if there is a drop in accuracy. Otherwise, it appears to boil down to personal preference.
Scubasimmons
New member
Sorry had to reply to 3,000 mile oil changes....you are wasting your money. There is no reason to do it more frequently than 5k and if you run synthetic and do a lot of freeway driving you could probably stretch it to 10k. For cleaning guns...I enjoy it so I do it more often than probably needed. A bore brush isn't going to wear out your hardened steel barrel.
Brotherbadger
New member
Too many variables to be accurate. Are you driving the same average speed during those miles as the previous? What if one has more city driving compared to highway? Heck, even having more weight in your trunk will drop your MPG. Are you having more passengers ride with you during the first 5,000? What about using AC/heat? Are your windows down the same percentage of time? I'm not saying your statement about when to do an oil change is wrong, it's just your method of proving it is flawed.
Corrosion is not the only concern, erosion and abrasion is to also be considered.
Food for thought:
Propellant burns and leaves carbon. As well primer residue inside cases becomes quite hard and leaves larger meteorite like particles. I have examined a number of barrels that show gouges from primer residue.
When carbon cools it becomes very hard (diamonds are carbon) so consider cooled down carbon left in your bore becoming quite hard, (diamond dust if you will)
Now you run a soft copper jacketed bullet down your bore you have left full of hard carbon dust the carbon easily embeds in copper jacket of the next round down bore and now you have abrasion taking place all the way down your bore.
Look at the inside of your case necks you reload and see if you have light scoring (lines) on the inside of the case neck. Look at your dies expander buttons and see if they are simarly scored.
How did this happen?
Carbon is left in your case upon firing, you run your rounds up in FL die, neck squeezes down about .006 underside then you pull the case back out, the carbon embeds in the expander ball and scores your case necks in a similar fashion it scores your bore.
Now take new ammo and fire it once. Tumble clean it in stainless steel media and remove all the carbon. Using a new die set lightly lube inside of case neck with a Q tip (I use Eds Red) and then FL size the cases and pull them out and look at them. No scoring on inside of necks and no scoring on the expander ball.
Repeat this cleaning with stainless media every time and lightly lubing cases and you shoulder never see the scoring again on your cases or the first time on your dies.
If you want to extend your case life decap with a universal decap die, FL size cases with no expander, expand your necks with a mandrell from the top down and you will not be stretching your case necks which will also reduce the number of times you need to trim them for length.
Bottom line carbon is the enemy. If possible clean your bore before the barrel cools and carbon gets hard and it comes out easy.
In competition when I leave a yard line I pull bolt out and wrap a pre greased patch around a 6.5/270 bore brush and make 10 quick passes to get out the carbon. I have pre greased patches in small wide mouth jar. Do this for three patches and you will be amazed in how much carbon comes out on the patches.
Remember diamonds (carbon) is a girls best friend and carbon in your bore is your worst enemy.
Now since we are on it I have run Mobil 1 for last 800,000 or so. I used to change at 5000 and then I linked up with a lubrication specialist for Mobil who told me in his personal vehicle he ran Mobil 1 15,000 and changed oil and filter and lab reports it is still good. I now have a 94 Honda wagon with 276,000 and a 02 Durango working on 242,000, both have had the 15,000 mile sessions since new and some times I have slipped up and ran them 19,000 before changing. Previous Honda had 191,000 when I sold it. No problem, just did not need 3 cars for two people. Prior to that was Mazda MPV with 141,000 when I traded it on Honda Wagon. MPV had dent in fendor, ran great. Then there were two Plyms with 132,000 (wife got rear ended), the other had 88K and wife got hit by drunk kid. I buy it in 5qt jugs from Wally World. Also run it in Honda Generator and mower. Got a 2500 HD with 115K on Mobil 1. Keep about 80 quarts in stock.
I change my own, (last 50 years anyhow) always have and I look at the drain plug end as soon as it comes out and it has always been clean. No deposits at all. If the drain plug is clean being the lowest point then the rest has to be as well.
I had a Int 140 tractor engine rebuilt and guy that did it said it was his 50th anniversary build as he had been buildling engines at that business 50 years that very week and he said he recommended Mobil 1 for years. I also put a engine hour meter on it at same time and I ran the first oil 126 hours (oil was still clean) and a log hung up under mower and I blew a head gasket. Pulled the head and engine was perfectly clean inside. Changed the oil, put on New head gasket and it now has about 270 hours and second oil is still clean.
I use Mobil 1 on my rifles and have also used it as a bore cleaner. Try it, works fine. I also break in new barrels with Mobil 1. Wet patch coats bore,fire one shot and clean with ammonia based bore solvent, the recoat with Mobil 1 and shoot another. Know several other HP shooters that do the same.
Put it in your semi auto rifle gas systems and it keeps the carbon soft and can be wiped out. Put in bolt vents on ARs and on Garands store them muzzle down and put about 8-10 drops of op rod and let it run into the gas cylinder area. On M1A put it in vent hole on gas cylinder. I use 0W20 on weapons. Just bought another 5 qts for the guns. Also good lube for sub zero hunting applications.
Hard carbon will give you many problems guys.
Food for thought:
Propellant burns and leaves carbon. As well primer residue inside cases becomes quite hard and leaves larger meteorite like particles. I have examined a number of barrels that show gouges from primer residue.
When carbon cools it becomes very hard (diamonds are carbon) so consider cooled down carbon left in your bore becoming quite hard, (diamond dust if you will)
Now you run a soft copper jacketed bullet down your bore you have left full of hard carbon dust the carbon easily embeds in copper jacket of the next round down bore and now you have abrasion taking place all the way down your bore.
Look at the inside of your case necks you reload and see if you have light scoring (lines) on the inside of the case neck. Look at your dies expander buttons and see if they are simarly scored.
How did this happen?
Carbon is left in your case upon firing, you run your rounds up in FL die, neck squeezes down about .006 underside then you pull the case back out, the carbon embeds in the expander ball and scores your case necks in a similar fashion it scores your bore.
Now take new ammo and fire it once. Tumble clean it in stainless steel media and remove all the carbon. Using a new die set lightly lube inside of case neck with a Q tip (I use Eds Red) and then FL size the cases and pull them out and look at them. No scoring on inside of necks and no scoring on the expander ball.
Repeat this cleaning with stainless media every time and lightly lubing cases and you shoulder never see the scoring again on your cases or the first time on your dies.
If you want to extend your case life decap with a universal decap die, FL size cases with no expander, expand your necks with a mandrell from the top down and you will not be stretching your case necks which will also reduce the number of times you need to trim them for length.
Bottom line carbon is the enemy. If possible clean your bore before the barrel cools and carbon gets hard and it comes out easy.
In competition when I leave a yard line I pull bolt out and wrap a pre greased patch around a 6.5/270 bore brush and make 10 quick passes to get out the carbon. I have pre greased patches in small wide mouth jar. Do this for three patches and you will be amazed in how much carbon comes out on the patches.
Remember diamonds (carbon) is a girls best friend and carbon in your bore is your worst enemy.
Now since we are on it I have run Mobil 1 for last 800,000 or so. I used to change at 5000 and then I linked up with a lubrication specialist for Mobil who told me in his personal vehicle he ran Mobil 1 15,000 and changed oil and filter and lab reports it is still good. I now have a 94 Honda wagon with 276,000 and a 02 Durango working on 242,000, both have had the 15,000 mile sessions since new and some times I have slipped up and ran them 19,000 before changing. Previous Honda had 191,000 when I sold it. No problem, just did not need 3 cars for two people. Prior to that was Mazda MPV with 141,000 when I traded it on Honda Wagon. MPV had dent in fendor, ran great. Then there were two Plyms with 132,000 (wife got rear ended), the other had 88K and wife got hit by drunk kid. I buy it in 5qt jugs from Wally World. Also run it in Honda Generator and mower. Got a 2500 HD with 115K on Mobil 1. Keep about 80 quarts in stock.
I change my own, (last 50 years anyhow) always have and I look at the drain plug end as soon as it comes out and it has always been clean. No deposits at all. If the drain plug is clean being the lowest point then the rest has to be as well.
I had a Int 140 tractor engine rebuilt and guy that did it said it was his 50th anniversary build as he had been buildling engines at that business 50 years that very week and he said he recommended Mobil 1 for years. I also put a engine hour meter on it at same time and I ran the first oil 126 hours (oil was still clean) and a log hung up under mower and I blew a head gasket. Pulled the head and engine was perfectly clean inside. Changed the oil, put on New head gasket and it now has about 270 hours and second oil is still clean.
I use Mobil 1 on my rifles and have also used it as a bore cleaner. Try it, works fine. I also break in new barrels with Mobil 1. Wet patch coats bore,fire one shot and clean with ammonia based bore solvent, the recoat with Mobil 1 and shoot another. Know several other HP shooters that do the same.
Put it in your semi auto rifle gas systems and it keeps the carbon soft and can be wiped out. Put in bolt vents on ARs and on Garands store them muzzle down and put about 8-10 drops of op rod and let it run into the gas cylinder area. On M1A put it in vent hole on gas cylinder. I use 0W20 on weapons. Just bought another 5 qts for the guns. Also good lube for sub zero hunting applications.
Hard carbon will give you many problems guys.
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Wow.
I guess I just like to use them the way they can be used. I'll run 300-500 rounds through a match barrel at a few three gun matches, on average I pull the trigger about once a second, on 30 to 60 round magazines. No reason to go slow, barrels are cheap!
Hummer70, while you make some points, the carbon is not even close to the hardness of diamonds...coal is pretty darn soft, in fact softer than steel or copper. The softer interface of the fouling between the harder jacket and bore due to carbon soot is beneficial.
As for oil changes, at 2500 miles, in tar based oils (Valvoline and Castrol), the additive package is pretty much neutralized. When you consider paraffin based oils (Quaker State and Pennzoil) the additive package is neutralized at about 2000 miles. I run past 5K in my 500 horse GTO engine on Mobil 1, but not just with any filter. Fact is, the FILTER is MUCH more important than the oil. If you run a Fram with Synthetic...good luck. The media is so loose the longer harder strands can pull debris right through.
I guess I just like to use them the way they can be used. I'll run 300-500 rounds through a match barrel at a few three gun matches, on average I pull the trigger about once a second, on 30 to 60 round magazines. No reason to go slow, barrels are cheap!
Hummer70, while you make some points, the carbon is not even close to the hardness of diamonds...coal is pretty darn soft, in fact softer than steel or copper. The softer interface of the fouling between the harder jacket and bore due to carbon soot is beneficial.
As for oil changes, at 2500 miles, in tar based oils (Valvoline and Castrol), the additive package is pretty much neutralized. When you consider paraffin based oils (Quaker State and Pennzoil) the additive package is neutralized at about 2000 miles. I run past 5K in my 500 horse GTO engine on Mobil 1, but not just with any filter. Fact is, the FILTER is MUCH more important than the oil. If you run a Fram with Synthetic...good luck. The media is so loose the longer harder strands can pull debris right through.