Ciener Hipower

[johnwilliamson062]

If I take a HiPower frame and throw a Ciener conversion on it, do I have a Hipower?
This would be a permanent conversion. Not welded or pinned, but permanent.

I know technically it isn't, but what of the highpower pistol would I be missing? The action will not be short recoil, but rather direct blowback. Safety should operate the same correct? Trigger may change weight or feel, but function in the same manner, correct?

 

[roashooter]

Not really

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I know technically it isn't, but what of the highpower pistol would I be missing? The action will not be short recoil, but rather direct blowback. Safety should operate the same correct? Trigger may change weight or feel, but function in the same manner, correct?

You seemingly answered your own question. It wouldn't be a Hi-Power. It would be a Hi-Power frame with a different slide assembly. The gun is more than the frame.

Such a converted weaon, if it were an auto, be the auto equivalent of putting a Suzuki 4 cylinder engine and transmission into an older Corvette body and chassis: it would look the same, but performance wouldn't be the same.

"Function in the same manner?" Only in the broadest sense of the term: when you pulled the trigger it will probably still go bang, but do it less often (10 vs 13 or 15 rounds), with a round that was much less powerful. But it would no longer be the BHP design, which was a short-recoil, locked breech gun.

You're talking about a permanent conversion. If you want to do it, do it. But from a dollars and sense (pun intended) perspective, I don't think it computes!: you can buy a good quality used used .22 for a little more than the cost of a new Ceiner conversion kit ($250 +/-), and keep your BHP for home defense -- or just sell it for a lot more than the cost of the Kit and buy an even better .22.

If you have somehow trashed your BHP top end, then go for it -- as replacing the slide and barrel would be cost prohibitive.

NOTE: at one time Ceiner had a lot of customers complaining about Ceiner products. There was also a lawsuit, with Ceiner arrested. Charges were dropped. It may have been an "internet phenonenon" and more fury than substance -- but many said it was hard to contact the firm or to get customer service.

If you buy from MidwayUSA or some other vendor, you'll probably get your kit more quickly -- and they have more muscle with a supplier than any individual does.

I have a BHP. I wouldn't take that route. I'd get a dedicated .22.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Unless things have changed, both Brownells and Midway stopped selling Ciener conversions several years ago. That said, I bought a Ciener conversion for a 1911 several years ago, while I could still get it through Brownells. It's an excellent product, and it shoots very well. I have had it on several different 1911 receivers and it worked fine with all of them.

If I put it on a Colt receiver, do I still have a Colt 1911? I don't think so. I have a Colt receiver with a Ciener conversion on it, and you would have a Hi-Power receiver with a Ciener conversion on it. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to do, but that's what it will be.

Trigger pull won't be affected by the conversion. There's nothing in the slide that affects the trigger.

I like the idea of mounting the conversion on a receiver to make a dedicated .22 pistol. I had mine on a $25 mongrel receiver for several years with that in mind, but recently I switched the mongrel to a .38 Super slide assembly. Now I'm looking for another beater receiver to fix up as a home for the Ciener conversion.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

you can buy a good quality used used .22 for a little more than the cost of a new Ceiner conversion kit ($250 +/-)

I already owned a good quality .22 semi-auto. I'm looking for a 22lr Hipower specifically.

keep your BHP for home defense

I've got a Glock for that.

I'd probably either use a rough Izzy surplus frame(why I feel a little rushed as this is likely the last batch) or wait around until I find a beater frame.

I'm aware of Ciener's customer service issues. It seems there was atrocious customer service, but no criminal activity.
Accusations that customers who were persistent in their request for information concerning their delayed orders ended up with orders buried at the bottom of the pile.
I don't think any large retailer caries his products at this point. You now have to buy directly from his company via a website. 22lrconversions.com or something.

I have a 22lr PPK locked up.
Browning makes a decent 22lr 1911 and there are a few other options.
I don't know of any 22lr hipowers having ever been made. I would prefer a factory gun.

 

[gyvel]

An interesting argument...

Legally, the serial numbered part of the gun is the frame, so I assume the "gun" would still retain legal status as a Hi-Power, ditto for the Colt 1911; Additionally, the Corvette with the Suzuki engine is legally titled as a Corvette, so it's still going to be a Corvette.

Just to edify a bit, suppose you took your Hi-Power frame and put a FEG or Charles Daly slide on it. If it were stolen, wouldn't you still report the gun to the police as Hi-Power?" The situation would be the same with the conversion unit on it.

Informally, they will be whatever you want to call them.

 

[gyvel]

What you can do for a Hi-Power conversion is to look around for one of the Argentine made units. They pop up from time to time on various sites and are fairly reasonably priced.

Pros: All steel, and (so far) mine (I have two) have been 100% reliable with the exception of some Thunderbolt duds.

Cons: Machining a little rough inside where you don't see it, and the unit is somewhat blockish and makes your gun look like a SIG.*


[*I don't like the looks of a SIG. YMMV.]

 

[Aguila Blanca]

What you can do for a Hi-Power conversion is to look around for one of the Argentine made units. They pop up from time to time on various sites and are fairly reasonably priced.

Pros: All steel, and (so far) mine (I have two) have been 100% reliable with the exception of some Thunderbolt duds.

Cons: Machining a little rough inside where you don't see it, and the unit is somewhat blockish and makes your gun look like a SIG.*

When I first got to this post I thought you were recommending picking up an FM Hi-Power pistol to use as the host for a Ciener conversion. After reading further (and twice), I think you are referring to the rare Argentinean .22 conversion uppers for the FM Hi-Power, correct?

 

[gyvel]

When I first got to this post I thought you were recommending picking up an FM Hi-Power pistol to use as the host for a Ciener conversion. After reading further (and twice), I think you are referring to the rare Argentinean .22 conversion uppers for the FM Hi-Power, correct?

Yeah, but I don't think they are that rare. I still see them come up for sale now and then.

I'm too lazy to go out now to see who the importer was.

 

[drobs]

Not sure why you would want a 22LR Hi Power.
Hi Power's have the worst factory trigger out there.

 

[RJay]

Shooting a magazine of .22's is still cheaper than a magazine of 9MM . I have conversions units for both Hi Power and 1911 and I enjoy shooting them both.

 

[Sevens]

Trigger pull won't be affected by the conversion. There's nothing in the slide that affects the trigger.

Uhhh, come again?
On a Hi-Power?
There must be something in the slide that genuinely affects the trigger (in a Hi-Power) because if that something is absent -- the sear will never move and the hammer will never fall.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

There must be something in the slide that genuinely affects the trigger (in a Hi-Power) because if that something is absent -- the sear will never move and the hammer will never fall.

Why? It's a hammer-fired gun, not a striker-fired gun. (Striker mechanisms are generally found in the slide and most have a direct connection between the trigger and striker mechanism.) The parts you mention are all in the BHP frame.

Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but about the only thing in the slide that even moves in an older BHP is the firing pin and related spring when it's first fired, and the barrel and slide as the firing cycle continues. There is no direct connection with the trigger and slide. The trigger releases the hammer, and the hammer hits the firing pin at the rear of the slide. Take the slide off, and the trigger and hammer function as usual.

(I'm unfamiliar with newer versions of the BHP that might have a firing pin block mechanism... so don't know how that might affect things.)

 

[Sevens]

Yes, you are absolutely missing something. If you own a Hi-Power, field strip it now.

A Hi-Power with it's slide off the frame? Trigger does no make ANY contact with the sear/hammer. There is a nice chunky doublestack magazine hole between the trigger and the sear/hammer. The only linkage between the two is in the slide. A Hi-Power is not a 1911.

 

[jmstr]

Your frame is a Hi Power, therefore your gun is legally a Hi Power for any sale/transfer purposes.

• Trigger pushes up on a 'trigger lever' in frame.
• Trigger lever pushes up on front of 'sear lever' in slide.
• Rear of sear lever pushes down on front/top/right corner of sear in frame.
• Sear rotates on sear pin and allows hammer to drop.
  
• Slide off equals no connection between hammer and trigger.
• Slide in frame allows it to function.

Note: do NOT hold trigger back when putting slide back on frame.

Also, mag disconnect function in rear of trigger [that presses on front of magazine] further hinders trigger feel.

For those who are interested in the Hi Power, this is a 'must read' site: I have two versions of the book listed there. http://hipowersandhandguns.com/

Furthermore, the 1911forum dot com has a dedicated BHP section- it is worth dwelling there a lot.



Now, about the .22lr conversion kits- I have experience with both the MACS and Ceiner. These are my experiences.

The named US made Ceiner kit and the Argentinian import, name of MACS, are the two in question.

And I think there was a more rare Argentinian .22lr conversion upper, as I've seen one made by DGFM mounted on a DGFM 1911. That would be a rare one.

The MACS system is more rare than the Ceiner kit, but it isn't impossible to find- unless you only give yourself a weekend.



I had the MACS system, and sold it for a Ceiner system.

• The MACS fired EVERY time I pulled the trigger, however, it had more loading jams.
• The MACS allowed the sear pin to 'walk' to the left, where it jammed the MACS slide/bolt mechanism, and was a PAIN to disassemble.
• The MACS has a threaded barrel and nut to properly tension the system. I am in California, where threaded barrels are a BIG NO NO. [for that reason alone I sold it].
• It was hard to find parts for the MACS system.
• If I lived in a 'free state', I would have prepped my frame and stuck with the MACS.

I bought a used Ceiner system.

• Parts are available in the USA.
• Mags are available in 10 or 15 round capacity, based on state you live in.
• Just order mags and they will send you the legal size you can have.

The Ceiner was not trouble-free though.

• The Ceiner had light strikes. Problem- malformed firing pin tip. Now solved.
• The Ceiner had issues of not being able to pull the trigger and fire the gun.
• Two issues caused this.
  
  [*]The first is the width of the trigger lever [the lifter thingy that pushes up on the sear lever that is in the slide] tip.
  [*]I believe it was occasionally lining up slightly on the slide instead of centering on the sear lever.
  

  [*]Problem solved with some recontouring.
  [*]

  Actually, I used it on a .40S&W Hi Power, that has a recontoured tip, and that issue disappeared.​

  [*]Second problem, and still need some work, is that the slide would fail to return 100% to battery/lock up, as it would stop at about 98% of forward.
  

  [*]Slight thumb pressure on rear of slide allows shooting, but running it sloppy wet with gun oil also helps avoid this.​

Overall, I am content with the Ceiner kit, but my Advantage Arms kit for Glock works better.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Yes, you are absolutely missing something. If you own a Hi-Power, field strip it now.

A Hi-Power with it's slide off the frame? Trigger does not make ANY contact with the sear/hammer...

You're right -- I was missing something. (I was writing about my BHP but I was "thinking" about my CZs when I did it... Duh.)

But back to my other point: I can't see PERMANENTLY converting a fully functional BHP to .22 unless the original top-end has been damaged.

But, s long as the OP hangs onto the original upper he can always reassemble the gun and sell the Ciener if he ever needs to do so. It's the PERMANENT part of the swap that "offended" me.

The OP can call it a BHP with that .22 top end installed if, as some claim, only the frame matters when naming a gun. But if you really believe that, why not try selling a BHP without a top-end on it, or with the top end from one of the early FEG or FM clones installed? I think you might be accused of fraud if you do that. That "browning" rollmark on the slide -- especially if it says made in Belgium -- makes a big difference.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

Not sure why you would want a 22LR Hi Power.

I'm not sure why you DON'T want one.
Who cares about the trigger. It isn't a competition race gun. I also like Nagant revolvers. You should try the triggers on those. You could legitimately replace a hand grip exerciser with a few welded together.

s long as the OP hangs onto the original upper

I will definitely be parting out any extra parts for 9mm or 40 SW once I see that I like the gun.

The Argentine MACS have a pretty spotty reputation and I think the possibility of obtaining parts at this point if far less than from Ciener.
Pachmayr also imported a German conversion, but there don't seem to be many around.

Let me rephrase this:
With a Ciener on a BHP do I have a:
1. Browning 1911-22
2. Colt/Umarex 1911-22

I want something close to the Browning 1911-22, but no one makes one for the HiPower. There are only conversions available. With the Ciener conversion am I going to get something that is really representative of a HiPower, or am I simply going to end up with something that looks kind of like a HiPower but shares very little mechanically.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

In that case, if your BHP slide and barrel are in good condition, let me know -- I may be an interested in buying them from you.

Aside: Have you tried a CZ-75B with the Kadet Kit installed? The ones I've shot and the one I own are exceptionally accurate. That's because, like many 22 conversion kits, the upper, barrel and sights are a single, non-moving unit; only a small section of the upper actually moves with each shot, and it doesn't affect alignment, etc. (We're talking MORE money, here, however; the Kadet Kit itself, which works with any of the metal-framed CZs sell for about $400, nowadays.)

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Let me rephrase this:
With a Ciener on a BHP do I have a:
1. Browning 1911-22
2. Colt/Umarex 1911-22

I want something close to the Browning 1911-22, but no one makes one for the HiPower. There are only conversions available. With the Ciener conversion am I going to get something that is really representative of a HiPower, or am I simply going to end up with something that looks kind of like a HiPower but shares very little mechanically.

A Hi-Power is not a 1911, so there's no way you can put anything on a Hi-Power receiver and turn it into a 1911. As to the two dedicated .22s you mentioned, neither is really a 1911. The Browning 1911-22 is a neat little gun, but the operative term is "little" -- it's scaled down to (IIRC) 80% of the size of a real 1911. The Colt/Umarex 1911-22 is full-sized, but the barrel is an integral part of the receiver so the field strip procedure is very different from a 1911, and you can't buy a centerfire top and and convert a Colt/Umarex into a different caliber pistol.

I haven't seen Ciener's Hi-Power conversion but, as I posted previously, I have one of his 1911 conversions. I consider my 1911 with Ciener conversion to be closer to a true 1911 than the Colt/Umarex (and that's not a dig at the Colt/Umarex, I've tested them and they're decent firearms. They're just a bit ... different). Accuracy is stellar, and I don't have the deluxe model with adjustable sights.

What you will have is, as has been commented, a Hi-Power receiver with a Ciener conversion. That's what it is, and you can't change what is. It'll look like a Hi-Power (except I don't know if Ciener narrows the muzzle end of the slide), and except for the lack of recoil it'll shoot like a Hi-Power. The trigger pull and feel should be unchanged.

Here's an old photo of my Ciener upper on the mongrel receiver. It looks a lot like a 1911 ...

 

[johnwilliamson062]

Have you tried a CZ-75B with the Kadet Kit installed?

One of the older factory .22 Kadets is on the list, but below the HiPower. The 1911-22 and HiPower .22 are the next purchases.

As to the two dedicated .22s you mentioned, neither is really a 1911. The Browning 1911-22 is a neat little gun, but the operative term is "little" -- it's scaled down to (IIRC) 80% of the size of a real 1911. The Colt/Umarex 1911-22 is full-sized, but the barrel is an integral part of the receiver so the field strip procedure is very different from a 1911, and you can't buy a centerfire top and and convert a Colt/Umarex into a different caliber pistol.

And that is the difference I was trying to point out. One, the Browning, is an 85% size 1911 chambered in 22. That is exactly what I want. The 85% is probably about perfect for my hand. The other, the Colt/Umarex, really just kind of aesthetically looks like a 1911.

Does the Ciened conversion get me something that is mostl HiPower like the Browning is mostly 1911, or something that kind of looks like a HiPower like the Umarex kind of looks like a 1911.