You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Churches
- Thread starter tatters
- Start date
I'm not a bible scholar, but it seems to me that, depending on old or new testament, you get a very different story of exactly what god wants us to do. In the old testament, it seems like a depiction of scorched earth, wholesale slaughter of everybody that teed god off. In the new testament, we're told to turn the other cheek and other such things.
If we take the bible literally, what example are we to follow? Turn the other cheek? An eye for an eye? Kill everybody that opposes us (men women and children) like what god instructed his minions to do after conquering the "bad guys" in battle (sorry I can't quote chapter and verse, but I could find it if I looked long enough). If the bible is considered the inspired word of god, how can some parts be any less valid than the others?
Other than the Vikings or perhaps the Celts, whose religions actually rewarded being brave and powerful in battle, I am unaware of any religion that truly supports a warrior mentality unless they are picking and choosing what they think the bible means.
YMMV, but I look elsewhere to find support for a self-sufficient mindset.
canis
If we take the bible literally, what example are we to follow? Turn the other cheek? An eye for an eye? Kill everybody that opposes us (men women and children) like what god instructed his minions to do after conquering the "bad guys" in battle (sorry I can't quote chapter and verse, but I could find it if I looked long enough). If the bible is considered the inspired word of god, how can some parts be any less valid than the others?
Other than the Vikings or perhaps the Celts, whose religions actually rewarded being brave and powerful in battle, I am unaware of any religion that truly supports a warrior mentality unless they are picking and choosing what they think the bible means.
YMMV, but I look elsewhere to find support for a self-sufficient mindset.
canis
CANIS,
In the Old Testament we see the Israelites gong into the land that God had promised to Abraham. The nations there were very evil and God was judging them and using Israel as an instrument. He had told Abraham:
Genesis 15:13 "And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."
God gave the nations in the Promised Land 400 years to repent. They did not and He judged them. Hence, the destruction you read about in the conquest of the land of Canaan. This should be a lesson for us, the USA.
I might add that God said that He was the one to take vengeance. We see the difference in the context and circumstances in the OT and NT. Paul tells us Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." We are not to take vengeance upon our enemies. However, the government has been given the authority to execute punishment on evil doers:
Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."
It is interesting that the sword is an instrument of death. The death penalty is confirmed here in the NT.
As individuals we are to forgive rather than take "an eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth." That does not prohibit legitimate self defense or defense of others. It does prohibit "getting even."
You might look at the book of Revelation to see there will again come a time of judgement, the Great Tribulation. It will be worse than anything the world has experienced. Jesus referred to that time in Matthew chapter 24.
The Bible does not contradict itself and one part is not more valid than another. It is necessary to understand who is being addressed and the context. That is not easy sometimes and takes years of study. Jerry
In the Old Testament we see the Israelites gong into the land that God had promised to Abraham. The nations there were very evil and God was judging them and using Israel as an instrument. He had told Abraham:
Genesis 15:13 "And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."
God gave the nations in the Promised Land 400 years to repent. They did not and He judged them. Hence, the destruction you read about in the conquest of the land of Canaan. This should be a lesson for us, the USA.
I might add that God said that He was the one to take vengeance. We see the difference in the context and circumstances in the OT and NT. Paul tells us Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." We are not to take vengeance upon our enemies. However, the government has been given the authority to execute punishment on evil doers:
Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."
It is interesting that the sword is an instrument of death. The death penalty is confirmed here in the NT.
As individuals we are to forgive rather than take "an eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth." That does not prohibit legitimate self defense or defense of others. It does prohibit "getting even."
You might look at the book of Revelation to see there will again come a time of judgement, the Great Tribulation. It will be worse than anything the world has experienced. Jesus referred to that time in Matthew chapter 24.
The Bible does not contradict itself and one part is not more valid than another. It is necessary to understand who is being addressed and the context. That is not easy sometimes and takes years of study. Jerry
So small children were punished for being members of an "evil" race? Seems rather disturbing. What about the whole "Turn the other cheek" thing?
Why would a kind and merciful god bring infinite punishment (hell) to an individual for a finite sin? Why would god kill pregnant mothers and small children and countless animals during the great flood? Certainly, they could not be held accountable for any wrongdoing?
Let us not forget that all of these people that were punished did not have the benefit of a bible or mass communications or media or anythjing else to help them hear the word. All they heard were stories of deeds that must have seemed as crazy to them at the time as those loonies that were waiting for the comet a few years ago were to us.
Why would the inspired word of god be so vague and open to so many diferent intepretations? Why would it have been left up to imperfect man to choose what books should make up the bible? Whose to say that some of the good books were left out? Why is the true authorship of many of the books unknown? Why, other than the bible, are there no historical references to jesus by non-christian contemporaries?
I would like to believe, but the more I learn regarding science and the more I really take the bible literally without making excuses for much of the barbarism contained therein, plus the fact that most organized religion just seems to exist to further human agendas, it is hard for me to rationally belive that christinatiy is the answer to all of man's woes!
canis
Why would a kind and merciful god bring infinite punishment (hell) to an individual for a finite sin? Why would god kill pregnant mothers and small children and countless animals during the great flood? Certainly, they could not be held accountable for any wrongdoing?
Let us not forget that all of these people that were punished did not have the benefit of a bible or mass communications or media or anythjing else to help them hear the word. All they heard were stories of deeds that must have seemed as crazy to them at the time as those loonies that were waiting for the comet a few years ago were to us.
Why would the inspired word of god be so vague and open to so many diferent intepretations? Why would it have been left up to imperfect man to choose what books should make up the bible? Whose to say that some of the good books were left out? Why is the true authorship of many of the books unknown? Why, other than the bible, are there no historical references to jesus by non-christian contemporaries?
I would like to believe, but the more I learn regarding science and the more I really take the bible literally without making excuses for much of the barbarism contained therein, plus the fact that most organized religion just seems to exist to further human agendas, it is hard for me to rationally belive that christinatiy is the answer to all of man's woes!
canis
CANIS,
When Adam sinned his sin was imputed to the whole human race. All mankind is separated from God by sin. Maybe that doesn't seem right to man, but because of this principle of Federal Headship the obedience of Christ and His sacrifice for our sins, that is He paid the price for our sins, His righteousness is imputed to those who come to Him in faith (born again.) In fact the entire human race is under the wrath of God. Only those who are in Christ are spared from God's wrath, and that is because of His righteousness. The solidarity of a people or the race is seen in the case of Achan. See Joshua 7:1, 11. Note that God said that Israel had sinned and Israel had been defeated as a result of one man's sin. Children are not innocent. It was God's judgement to wipe out the whole of the Canaanites. God holds all mankind guilty and the only way to Him is through Christ. This is the reason that all religions except Christianity are hopeless as the way to salvation. Paul covers this doctrine of Original Sin and Federal Headship in Romans chapter 5. I will post some of it. Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Finite, sinful man cannot comprehend the infinite and holy God. He only is the standard. He is neither arbitrary nor unfair. All deserve Hell. However, in His love He has made a way to Himself. It is a simple way, the way of the Cross. It is through faith in Jesus Christ who God sent to pay the price of our sin. God has pronounced death to the soul that sins. All have sinned. When we come to Christ He considers that we died on the Cross with Christ and our sins are imputed to Christ and His righteousness is imputed to us. We are then children of God and our eternal future is assured by the righteousness of Christ. There is no other way. It is the way that God has decreed. There are references tko Jesus. Josephus, the Jewish Historian AD 37-100 mentions Jesus. There is much evidence as to the person and works of Christ. I wish space permitted more discussion rgarding this. If you desire feel free to email me. Regards, Jerry
When Adam sinned his sin was imputed to the whole human race. All mankind is separated from God by sin. Maybe that doesn't seem right to man, but because of this principle of Federal Headship the obedience of Christ and His sacrifice for our sins, that is He paid the price for our sins, His righteousness is imputed to those who come to Him in faith (born again.) In fact the entire human race is under the wrath of God. Only those who are in Christ are spared from God's wrath, and that is because of His righteousness. The solidarity of a people or the race is seen in the case of Achan. See Joshua 7:1, 11. Note that God said that Israel had sinned and Israel had been defeated as a result of one man's sin. Children are not innocent. It was God's judgement to wipe out the whole of the Canaanites. God holds all mankind guilty and the only way to Him is through Christ. This is the reason that all religions except Christianity are hopeless as the way to salvation. Paul covers this doctrine of Original Sin and Federal Headship in Romans chapter 5. I will post some of it. Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Finite, sinful man cannot comprehend the infinite and holy God. He only is the standard. He is neither arbitrary nor unfair. All deserve Hell. However, in His love He has made a way to Himself. It is a simple way, the way of the Cross. It is through faith in Jesus Christ who God sent to pay the price of our sin. God has pronounced death to the soul that sins. All have sinned. When we come to Christ He considers that we died on the Cross with Christ and our sins are imputed to Christ and His righteousness is imputed to us. We are then children of God and our eternal future is assured by the righteousness of Christ. There is no other way. It is the way that God has decreed. There are references tko Jesus. Josephus, the Jewish Historian AD 37-100 mentions Jesus. There is much evidence as to the person and works of Christ. I wish space permitted more discussion rgarding this. If you desire feel free to email me. Regards, Jerry
As far as the Mormon Church being pro-gun, you should know that when the antis tried to pass an initiative prohibiting CCW in churches and schools here in Utah, the Mormon Church came out in favor of the initiative. They fully support your RKBA as long as you don't bring your CCW gun to church.
Don Quixote
New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tatters:
I went to the United Methodist church today, and had a wonderful time, and yes I was armed.
I kinda made up my own rules, as we are sometimes forced to do, and I am no worse for the wear.
[/quote]
Biggest problem I see is that a bit of the money you put into the plate there is going to go to HCI, things like the Million Mom March, etc.
[This message has been edited by Don Quixote (edited November 05, 2000).]
I went to the United Methodist church today, and had a wonderful time, and yes I was armed.
I kinda made up my own rules, as we are sometimes forced to do, and I am no worse for the wear.
[/quote]
Biggest problem I see is that a bit of the money you put into the plate there is going to go to HCI, things like the Million Mom March, etc.
[This message has been edited by Don Quixote (edited November 05, 2000).]