Choosing long range target rifle

The very best of the 7.62 NATO service rifles, M1 and M14NM that is, would shoot inside 1 MOA at 1000 yards with the best commercial match ammo available. But none of them shot reloaded cases very accurate. Problem was their bolt faces were never squared up with the chamber axis. CWO4 Billy Atkins of the US Army Reserve Rifle Team told me they tried full length sizing commercial cases to get better accuracy, but all attempts failed. New cases always shot the best. The US Navy and Air Force tried full length resizing their cases but got the same results. SFC Arpail Gapol told me the Army's best shooting long range load was a good lot of M118 match with its 172-gr. bullet replaced with a Sierra 180 HPMK. I've seen him shoot very well with that load.

This is something you might want to consider with a semiauto anything for good accuracy ten football fields away. You could also handload new cases and get the same results, maybe better by weighing charges.

One other thing about long range semiautos, the US Navy Garands converted to 7.62 NATO are the only semiautos used to qualify people for the US Palma Team. Folks shooting the very best M14NM's came close.

I've recently heard the service teams are going back to 30 caliber service rifles for the long range matches; better scores with the .308/7.62 rounds.
 
Problem was their bolt faces were never squared up with the chamber axis.
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For the M1 and M14 bolt, the locking lugs are positioned high with respect to the lateral centerline. This results in a longitudinal torque to the entire bolt body, the upper surface of the bolt is in tension, the lower surface in compression.

Even so, I had read earlier postings of yours, you claiming case heads are canted after sizing.

I took 30-06 ammunition, the ammunition I shoot in my Garand, it is up to fourth reload and sizing, used my RCBS Case Master Concentricity Gaging Tool to measure concentricity after sizing. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/310955/rcbs-case-master-concentricity-gaging-tool I forced the case heads against the post and measured case neck run out, shoulder run out, and found the cases were concentric within 0.001”.

Still, I stopped service rifle at 1000 yards a long time ago. I could never hold well enough, or aim well enough with a post, to attribute the poor scores I shot to ammunition issues. Frame hold?, what frame?

I've recently heard the service teams are going back to 30 caliber service rifles for the long range matches; better scores with the .308/7.62 rounds.
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A Reservist who shoots on the Reserve Team, has been shooting his AR10 at 1000 yards. I got the impression that given its short barrel, it is still not a gimme with 308.

As for .223 at 1000 yards, one shooter claimed pulling .223 bullets out of the target face. At 1000 yards the shooter on her point, his .223 would not go through the cardboard after traveling 1000 yards.

One thousand yards is too far for a .223.
 
One thousand yards is too far for a .223
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Hmmm, I did not know this. Have you shot a 223 at a 1000? I haven't either. Yet. But your comment and story till smells. What ammo was this person shooting?

A few years back, a AR service rifle with a 6 1/2 -1 twist was brought out to help Stabilize the then sorta new 80 gr. SMK's. The gun plummers found a 7 -1 twist would work and the 80's flew just fine. So I was caught a little early in the game and was talked into a 6 1/2 to 1 twist in a service rifle. I have not fired this rifle at a 1000. It will shoot 80 gr SMK's on call at 600. Today the 6 1/2 - 1 twist barrel is high mileage and is my loaner gun. This rifle has won me a few matches and a little money. I now have a low milage 7-1 Kreiger that works just fine and it too has won me some matches and a little money. Any way, people are shooting a 223 at 1000 and the bullets are going through the paper. I just have not done this yet. I even have some cute Berger 90 gr VDL's but I understand a 80 gr. SMK will work.

I have shot a 1000 with a M-14. Seemed like you could light a finish a smoke before the bullet got to the target. ;) Amnd just so you know IMHO a 80 gr. SMK flys a little better than a 168 gr SMK.
 
Hmmm, I did not know this. Have you shot a 223 at a 1000? I haven't either.
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Might have, would have been a service rifle with 80's, I would have to check my data books.

But I dumped the notation early on pulling targets for 223 shooters. It is very hard to just get on paper at 1000 yards when you don’t have good 1000 yard zeros. The line would call for a mark, I would put it up as a miss, then the call would come down “can you tell if the .223 is going over the target?”, and no, you could not hear them.

It was very hard to know when they finally hit the target. No noise, little hole, no chaff in the wind.

A guy shooting in the 180’s is doing good with a .223 service rifle.

Of course this was when 80’s were all you could get and before 1-6.5. So maybe if you shoot the tungsten core bullets in a 1-6.5 twist you can post your experience.

It is hard enough to get on target with a 30 caliber service rifle, and I have seen big windage changes with small wind changes at 1000 yards with 175’s and 190’s.

Amnd just so you know IMHO a 80 gr. SMK flys a little better than a 168 gr SMK.
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That is an article of faith. I no longer shoot 168's at 1000 yards as I had them keyhole in my M1a. The 175's shoot well. The 185 Bergers do better.

Yet. But your comment and story till smells. What ammo was this person shooting?
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Get in your time machine, find the match, and ask the shooter on the line. The poor person in the pitts has enough to do pulling targets in a timely fashion and is not in constant communication with the shooter on their firing point. Unless you go out and eat with them later, you are not going to have the face time to find out.

The person I heard the story from, she is a F Class champion, I shoot with her all the time, and she out shoots me in each and every small bore match we shoot together, then we go out and eat. And you know, I don’t really care how much the story smells in anyone's nose, her credibility is real high on my scale.
 
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Quick update:
  • Rifle shooting eye is healing well; it will take another couple months before I know what kind of prescription glasses I'll need, but "none" is starting to look like a strong possibility. No astigmatism anymore!
  • I'm going to take it slow on the rifle setup. I've just ordered some LaRue Tactical QD mounts for both my Vortex Sparc and my Sightron silhouette scope (currently on my .308) so I can swap between the two.
    • Besides, I needed some more 'Dillo Dust :D
  • If I shoot enough with that setup and enjoy it, I'll consider purchasing a Vortex PST FFL scope, and a separate LaRue QD mount to go with it. I better enjoy it a lot though to make that jump.
    • Pricey, but if I do it I'd rather "buy well and cry once"; also, the QD mounts will give me flexibility for what firearm to mount it upon.
My wife has been threatening to make my Colt 6920 "her" AR, so I may need to build a second one. If so, I'll revisit the caliber discussion, but given all the feed back here, as well as ammo costs, it will likely be another .223. I'm tentatively thinking a LaRue 20" stealth upper matched with a lower I build with a MagPul PRS stock and Geissele 2 stage SD trigger should do the trick. That will give my wife and I a pair of ARs geared for both short range and medium range, and allow us to swap optics as necessary.

Thanks again for all the advice :) - Fargazer
 
I'm curious why you're leaning towards the .223 for long range target over the 6.5 Grendel.
You mentioned ammo costs, I assume you don't handload?

My son just built a mid-length (18") AR in 6.5 Grendel, cost about $1,100...
All components are identical to whatever you'd choose to build a .223 AR, except the barrel/bolt. And there are deals to be found on Grendel barrels (they will be getting more popular, and less expensive, now that SAAMI has adopted the cartridge).

Grendel ammo will always be more than .223, but with handloads that difference becomes minimal.

Don't dismiss the Grendel so quickly, you might regret it down the road.
Just sayin....we've never looked back after going that route. It's long range ballistics are outstanding, and take the AR platform out further than anyone ever thought possible.
 
.223 at 600 yds

At the 600 yd line on a KD range I shot a 197-6x with a Colt HBAR in 1989 using brown box 55 gr ball. Everyone had always told me my gun wouldn't shoot 55 grain bullets at 600 yds. Guess if I'd had whatever twist I "needed" I'd a shot a clean.

That said I still prefer my M1a
 
tobnpr said:
I'm curious why you're leaning towards the .223 for long range target over the 6.5 Grendel.
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One clarification: Jim Watson and kraigwy were kind enough to help refine my requirements. I'm actually looking at medium range, out to 500-600 yards, not "long range" as it is generally defined. 500 yards right now is the longest range I have regular access to, and that is limited.

I'm still a beginner at target rifle shooting, and am looking to "ease" gradually into it. At this point, I've decided trigger time is more important than the specific round. If I'm brutally honest, I could just stick with my 16" Colt 6920 and shoot the heck out of it for a year or more.

The current plan (which yes, is constantly subject to change) is:
  • Attach LaRue lever mounts to my current Sightron silhouette scope and my Vortex Sparc, to swap out on my current Colt 6920. The mounts arrive today.
    • I can pause at this point for a while if I want and if I am willing to resist the purchase of a new upper; the LaRue mounts should let me swap between the two optics quite well.
  • Get a new precision oriented upper to dedicate the scope to, and dedicate the Sparc to the Colt 16" upper. My wife wants to try 3 gun, and the Colt / Sparc combo seems good for that; I like more shooting from the bench, and a longer scoped upper would be more suited there.
    • The RRA 24" Varmint A4 seems to be one of the best bangs for the buck out there in a pre-built upper. $700ish, well reviewed, and allows me to run business through my LGS.
    • A LaRue OBR 20" upper would be another sweet option. Yes, I know I'm comparing apples and oranges: The RRA is half the price of the LaRue, and good enough for what I want, but the LaRue is so very very nice, and all my dealings with them have been clear, concise, and "no BS".
    • There are lots of other options; Precision Firearms is another source I'm considering. I'll make a final decision after I know my tax situation better.
  • Over the next year, I'll build a lower with a Geissele two stage SD trigger and a MagPul PRS stock, and dedicate the scoped upper to it.
If I decide to move to actual "long range shooting", rather than "medium range", then I may build or buy a 6.5 Grendel to swap out with the MagPul PRS equipped lower.
 
Well, the LaRue Tactical mounts (LT660HK for the Vortex Sparc, LT104 for the Sightron II Big Sky silhouette scope) have arrived; their construction is very impressive, and appear to work very well. I've attached the mounts to both the Sparc and the Sightron, and will test out the Sparc this weekend.

They came with various LaRue swag, including rib rub, a copy of the Constitution, bumper stickers, a bottle opener, and this time a hat. I don't know why, but the LaRue swag always puts a big smile on my face :)

I've ordered the new upper; it is a RRA 24" Varmint model with 1 in 8 twist, chromed BCG, Gunfighter charging handle, low profile gas block, and a rifle length Advanced Half Quad handguard. Total price, $715 before store credit; I don't think I can beat that bang for buck. Once it comes in, I'll post some pictures and some feedback.
 
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