CHL and Vigilantes

There are some stupid people who do commit crimes in front of cops, but not many. We aren't fortunate enough to have the outlaw element be that consistently stupid.
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We did have one of our more brilliant types try to sell drugs to two cops in an unmarked car a few years ago.
Both cops were in uniform and one was the Orange County sheriff
 
Code: 
The thief probably just wants to take the car to a chop-shop and by pulling a gun

Sure, guarrantee me this is the only thing the low life scum bag thief wants, and I might give way and let the insurance company deal with the loss. However, in the attempted car jacking of my Grand National some years back, the BG held up no such sign or offered any sort of contract for me to negotiate.

What he got was a real close look at a 45 Automatic, a voice telling him it wasn't worth it, and a really angry owner ready to ventilate his sad sack rear end if that hand came out of his pocket with anything other than air.

Maybe I'm just not "enlightened" enough to feel their pain, and should turn over everything I have worked for in this life because someone demands it out of a whim.

What is the mindset of those who think we should knuckle under to thugs, carjackers and murderers, and where do I get this chrystal ball which tells me exactly what their intentions are when I am confronted? DU got a sale on these???
 
Better yet, if I see someone who doesn't believe in CCW being robbed at gunpoint, should I just walk away and let whatever happens happen?

I think that people who don't believe in self-defense should be required to wear bright yellow jackets and hats at all times when in public, and those who believe in self-defense should be obligated to aid others who believe in self-defense, but obligated to abandon to criminals anyone wearing the yellow.

And the penalty for wearing yellow AND fighting back when robbed, beaten, or raped should be death.
 
PHP: 
I would like to think that a call to 911 *still* is the right thing to do, unless your immediate life or loved one is in danger.

PHP: 
I just sometimes question the decision making of some holders since rarely do even well trained leo's do the right thing.

PHP: 
Cops and laws do little to protect you, they just try to discourage and respond to crimes.

PHP: 
Police and tactical teams are trained in the psychological element of crimes in progress, but as chl holders we are not.

Firefox, I see by the quotes above there are some contradictions in your statements. Calling 911 is the right thing to do, but when law enforcement shows up they rarely know what to do. However, police officers are trained in crimes in progress issues, but do little to protect you.

It seems you are not comfortable with the decision making of anyone. The police don't know what to do. CCW holders don't know what to do. And you yourself have many questions about what you think you should do.

Then there was...

PHP: 
Heck, after a single person had been pistol whipped, I would have *prepared* to engage, but certainly not draw

So what you are telling me is that you are going to roll up your sleeves and fistfight a man with a pistol in his hand, who is using this pistol as a weapon to inflict blunt force trauma to the head of person.

And then there was...

PHP: 
what happens when someone punches your spouse in the face, breaking her nose? Adrenaline rush becomes a factor and thus (fight or flight). When a firearm is at your fingertips, are you more than likely to pull it? Or would you pull the gun out , empty the chamber and magazine , and roll up your sleeves.

Again the ole sleeves get rolled up only after you take your pistol out and unload it in front of the assailant. I guess this is done only after you frisk him to make sure he doesn't have his trusty Buck knife with him.

The real problem here seems to be that you don't realize it when you are in a potentially life threatening situation. You are looking for an axe murder, who has already killed several people, and is now chasing after you. Anything short of that you are going to comply at all costs and maybe fistfight until the police arrive. Good honest people don't go out looking for trouble, but when trouble finds you, split second decisions have to be made. I agree with you that all situations are different and all situations require a little different response. But you need to realize that people that bring weapons with them when committing a crime are deadly threats. You are trying to rationalize what these people are thinking or going to do. The only problem with doing that, is these criminals are not rational people. They wouldn't be going to such an extreme as committing an armed robbery of an occupied business if they were thinking straight. If someone carjacks you at gunpoint, you have to realize that this is not a car thief so to speak. If you were dealing with merely a car thief. He would have stolen an unoccupied car in a parking lot. If a carjacker has a gun stuck in your face, do you attempt to draw on him? Not if you want to see another day. A fast draw never beats a trigger squeeze. I'll be glad to let him have my car and call my insurance agent. But what if he wants me to tag along with him for a little while. You bet I'll be looking for my opportunity to rid myself of him. There are some damn mean people out there and they don't feel like playing by the rules. The chances of running into a stone cold criminal that wouldn't give two cents for your life is probably not real high in most places. But, you are just as likely to find him as anyone else.

You need to rethink what constitutes a threat to your life. Otherwise, the police are likely to find you dead with your sleeves rolled up and your unloaded gun laying beside you!
 
eka said:
The chances of running into a stone cold criminal that wouldn't give two cents for your life is probably not real high in most places.
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Probably true, but in the middle of a robbery, the chances rise very high, high enough to bet his life on.
They are definitely not low enough to bet MY life against.
 
I don't know that I would use the term Vigilante.

But I do see some people "acting differently" because they are armed.

Which can be a good thing...if it makes them extra careful...or more likely to avoid conflict.

But I fear that, for some, they add a potentially fatal step to their decision tree.

I see lots of posts about armed home invaders and very few people include running out the back door as an option.

I see relatively intelligent people talk of holding bad guys at gunpoint.
( Without a good idea of what to do if their unarmed prisoner just walks away)

A wise man once said..." getting in any fight shows a massive failure in your conflict avoidance strategy"
 
Firefox, I see by the quotes above there are some contradictions in your statements. Calling 911 is the right thing to do, but when law enforcement shows up they rarely know what to do. However, police officers are trained in crimes in progress issues, but do little to protect you.

It seems you are not comfortable with the decision making of anyone. The police don't know what to do. CCW holders don't know what to do. And you yourself have many questions about what you think you should do.
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I do think about these things. Don't you? You cannot be so single-minded that in every hostile situation, you'd automatically draw. That's very disturbing at best. I would *prepare* to engage in a robbery if I saw that the criminal was being physically hostile to innocents. And you bet I would think long and hard before actually engaging. Thinking you're doing the heroic thing without regard to other innocent life, is ironically very selfish.

Leo's rarely help because they arrive after the crime in most cases. That's why I firmly believe in personal home defense. I think most would be criminals hesitate because they are afraid of getting caught after the crime. The problem is defining *life-threatening situation*. Sipping coffee at a quickie-mart while some kid robs the clerk is probably borderline.
Going commando style into a residence you are looking after (where you know loved ones are on vacation) is stupid at best. In that situation , you have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Reread that last statement.

And you're right, I don't trust anybody with a gun in a hostile situation. At the very least, leo's are TRAINED. Day in, day out. They train for shot placement, negotiations, psychology , civilian casualty, and a host of several dozen other things you and I as a CCW holder never even touch base on.
A great majority of CCW's are trained in 2 things. SAFETY and how to hit your target. Yet, there are still a few who IMHO have seen one too many episodes of cops.
 
But I do see some people "acting differently" because they are armed.
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That's precisely what I am trying to say. Admittedly , when I first received my CHL a few years ago, I thought about whatif scenario's with me acting with my gun instead of my head. I quickly rid myself of that notion. Almost everyone follows the cardinal rule :

"keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot" or "treat all guns as loaded" but does everyone follow this one:

"Never do anything you wouldn't normally do without a gun". If I was standing in line at a grocery store and someone was robbing a clerk, I would NEVER attack the BG or try to disarm him. Why do this just because I have a pistol in my coat?
 
Looking at some of these followup posts, it may not as be obvious as one would think.
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Nope - sorry - you've been here for a few days. I've been following this board and the posters for 5 years. Between here and www.thehighroad.org which is TFL's sister site, there are several hundred threads dealing with real world encounters which support the flight instead of fight attitude. 1 or 2 days, and a dozen posts aren't indicative of the big picture.
 
Below you will find a link to the Pennsylvania State Police use of force policy. I know most of this applies to LEOs, but it gives a base of knowledge to work off of. I know, I know, that is precisely what Foxfire is talking about, non-LEOs acting like LEOs just because they have a CCW and a gun. But what I am getting at is, what justifies the taking of a human life in defense of your life or the life of another still applies, LEO or not. Now Foxfire, you are on base in respect to avoiding a deadly force encounter if at all possible. In most states there is a statutory requirement to retreat if at all possible to avoid having to defend one's self with force. This of course, may not be possible. LEOs are not required to retreat from any situation. You are not required to retreat in your own home. If you are Joe Citizen walking down the sidewalk and glance inside a store you are passing and see an armed robbery in progress, you should retreat to safety and call the police. You should not rush through the door and shoot it out with the bad guy. If you are inside the store standing at the counter when the bad guy produces a gun, you have a different set of circumstances all together. You will have to decide if you feel you or someone else is in danger of being killed or seriously injured. If you decide you or they are, then deadly force is justified. As long as your reasoning is reasonable. After the determination has been made that deadly force is justified, only you can determine if, when, and how it is to be used. Every situation is different and those exact circumstances will dictate the decisions you make. The real problem is that those decisions are made in seconds. Good decisions could save lives, bad decisions may cause more loss of life. That is exactly why thinking these things through before an encounter occurs is important. LEOs that patrol a beat are encouraged to survey the businesses in their area and dream up different situations and their approach to them. This puts them a step ahead when real things happen. Precisely what we are doing here.

Great thread Foxfire, and very interesting posts.


http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/s_112228.html
 
Who is this guy? Look at the number of posts. Troll sees gun forum. Troll visits gun forum. Troll tries to raise a ruckus in gun forum. Ignore troll and troll goes away. Troll needs to quit listening to John Denver.
 
firefox, you apparently still don't understand the definition of what a vigilante is or is not and what it means to act in defense of one's self or of others. People still do dumb things sometimes, like investigating noises that maybe would best be investigated by professionals, but even so, what they are doing is NOT illegal and if things go south and they find the need to defend themselves, that is their right and is not a vigilante act. Vigilantism comprises illegal acts without due course of the legal system.

You take care of the gun you carry and we will all take care of the guns we carry. Not to worry, we won't be coming to your aid because we know you would not like that. I certainly would not be coming to your aid without a gun and since you don't think we should do things with guns that we would not do without them, I won't be coming to help you. That is the beauty of our legal system. Not only are cops not fully obligated to intervene, but private citizens definitely are not either and so we will leave you alone.
 
Who is this guy? Look at the number of posts. Troll sees gun forum. Troll visits gun forum. Troll tries to raise a ruckus in gun forum. Ignore troll and troll goes away. Troll needs to quit listening to John Denver.
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Never been a John Denver fan. Certainly the number of posts doesn't make any of my points invalid or does pointing this out contribute to the thread in any meaningful way. I'm a texan and gun owner for nearly 10 years and a chl for about 4. Really though, if I was a troll you'd probably see something like this:

"If we eliminated all guns, the world would be a much better place. Guns kill people!"
 
Not to worry, we won't be coming to your aid because we know you would not like that. I certainly would not be coming to your aid without a gun and since you don't think we should do things with guns that we would not do without them, I won't be coming to help you.
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That's exactly my point, your weapon is for SELF-defense. Not mine or anyone else's. Don't try to be a hero, because you'll end up a tragic one. I'd rather you call the police on my behalf if you see kidnappers tieing up my loved ones, so professionals can help negotiate and have adequate backup. I wouldn't want you to get hurt (you will) or jeopardize my family's life (you will). Now, if I was in a bank and it was being robbed, please don't pull out your guns blazing, this will most likely result in a massacre of sorts.

If YOUR life was directly threatened, take careful consideration, and defend/stop the agressor as you see fit. I nor a lot of rational people don't want your bravado actions. We clearly see the immense danger of such an intervention from an amateur at best. We also understand that a threat *already* has a massive advantage. They've prepared to do it, have no morals, may already have their fingers on the trigger, and probably nothing to lose but few brass shells.
 
Nope - sorry - you've been here for a few days. I've been following this board and the posters for 5 years. Between here and www.thehighroad.org which is TFL's sister site, there are several hundred threads dealing with real world encounters which support the flight instead of fight attitude. 1 or 2 days, and a dozen posts aren't indicative of the big picture.
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You're right, a dozen posts aren't indicative and neither is 4509 posts. The number of posts give no indication of experience or the amount read, just the level of participation. I've been reading the forums for many years and have just started posting. There's usually a silent majority out there in cyberspace...
 
*sniff sniff*... smells like troll to me. But presuming for a moment that it isn't...

CHL incident statistics are readily available in most states, and they do NOT support your position at all.

As for a carjacker. Carjacking is a crime of opportunity. Correctly trained CHL holders tend to be more alert than the general populace, limiting their exposure to the opportunity. Awareness of one's surroundings does much to mitigate one's chance of becoming a victim.

Also remember, that skinny pedal under your right foot can be a very effective tool.
 
It's amazing how jargon from my field, electrical, can be applied to debate. If you're running two circuits to a recepticle, don't forget to break off the jumper. Otherwise you'll experience "bucking phases." That's all this firefox is trying to accomplish. His opinion isn't going to change and we'll continue "bucking phases " until we're all bleeding from our fingertips.
 
I'm still trying to figure out how sparking an armed carjacker is "vigilantism."

There must be other dictionaries out there than the one I'm using. ;)
 
Doing the right thing

"In today's society, a fair number of people are of the opinion that an armed robery is somehow 'okay' as long as no one gets hurt; I submit that the only proper outcome of an armed robbery is a dead robber at the scene. "
- Jeff Cooper

"In any confrontation with a criminal, the moment your assailant draws a weapon, you must proceed under the belief that your life and the lives of others involved are at that point in danger." - Masaad Ayoob (paraphrased)

Food for thought.

Do I want to shoot a criminal? H3LL NO! But I want to be shot myself even less!

If I were in a bank and four armed robbers came in and announced a robbery, would I try to shoot it out with them? No - their goal is to get the money and run as quickly as they can. If I were in a convenience store at 3AM and two thugs come in and pull a gun, then what? They want to rob the place - can a person be ABSOLUTELY SURE that they won't decide to kill all potential witnesses? NO.

In that situation, doing nothing could very well get you and others killed; if you wait to see what they are going to do, you may end up with their gun on you, unable to draw yours without being shot or killed. Good judgement is the key.

It seems that with a CCW license, there comes a certain amount of responsibility to defend innocent life, yours as well as others. If you're in a situation where you don't draw your weapon to stop a violent crime and the victim ends up dead, you will have to live with that knowledge for a long time.

Am I advocating going around acting like Wyatt Earp? No. I'm advocating doing the right thing based on good judgement.
 
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