Cheap defense ammo?
- Thread starter Andrew Wiggin
- Start date
Technosavant
New member
Not bad take on it.
One thing I'd add: If one is worried about the cost of defensive ammo, investigate the cost of a lawyer's time. If a person needs to use that firearm and ammunition in self defense, his/her choices are going to be painstakingly examined. One or two hours' of lawyer time to explain something will more than cover a few hundred rounds of good quality defensive ammunition.
One thing I'd add: If one is worried about the cost of defensive ammo, investigate the cost of a lawyer's time. If a person needs to use that firearm and ammunition in self defense, his/her choices are going to be painstakingly examined. One or two hours' of lawyer time to explain something will more than cover a few hundred rounds of good quality defensive ammunition.
+1 Techno
There has been a good discussion of this on some other forums: Are 5 rounds of $0.20 9mm FMJ more effective and make a bigger hole than a $1 "Critical Defense" round? Probably.
I expect 5x well placed FMJ shots are likely more effective than any top-of-the-line defense round.
Conversely, I don't take "pulling the trigger for real" lightly. My take is, if I've spent $500+ on a quality handgun I'll spend the money on the more expensive rounds, as we are likely talking my or a loved ones life, and will fire enough rounds to stop the threat, and won't worry about the cost.
There has been a good discussion of this on some other forums: Are 5 rounds of $0.20 9mm FMJ more effective and make a bigger hole than a $1 "Critical Defense" round? Probably.
I expect 5x well placed FMJ shots are likely more effective than any top-of-the-line defense round.
Conversely, I don't take "pulling the trigger for real" lightly. My take is, if I've spent $500+ on a quality handgun I'll spend the money on the more expensive rounds, as we are likely talking my or a loved ones life, and will fire enough rounds to stop the threat, and won't worry about the cost.
zincwarrior
New member
There are some alternatives that are less expensive.
Black Hills made its bones on offering inexpensive JHPs. I think their slogan is "cheap enough to practice" or something.
Freedom Munitions sells Hornady JHP capped cartridges now.
For liability purposes, the one thing I would not do is handloads.
Black Hills made its bones on offering inexpensive JHPs. I think their slogan is "cheap enough to practice" or something.
Freedom Munitions sells Hornady JHP capped cartridges now.
For liability purposes, the one thing I would not do is handloads.
Andrew Wiggin
New member
Honest question: has that ever actually happened? I mean I know Mas Ayoob sells a lot of magazines with this stuff but has anyone ever been even charged, let alone convicted in an otherwise clean justified shooting because of his or her ammo choice?
You're assuming you will have time to fire 5 "well placed" shots
Averages say it's usually over in 3 shots.
If one of your "cheap" FMJ's overpentrates and injures or kills a bystander, are those few pennies worth it?
Every round you fire is a potential miss, so more isn't always better
The ammo upon which you are betting your life is not a place to skimp
Double Naught Spy
New member
Nice writeup, Snyper.
That is just it. If the person is convicted, then it wasn't an otherwise clean justified shooting. Where ammo has been a purported issue is in SD shootings where the issues in question were not clearly evident or clean. When there is a conviction, you will find that the gun writers and many folks feel that it was the ammo that was the reason for the conviction, such as with numerous discussion on the Harold Fish case. The prosecution did make a point out of vilifying the caliber and ammo he used. So obviously, it must have have been these factors that resulted in the conviction.
People drawing such a conclusion often failed to consider or give credence to the fact that the story Fish told did not fit the forensic evidence and that under the parameters of the law at the time (now changed, BTW), his shooting was not clean. His lawyer did an abysmal job. The law got changed. He got a new trial. His lawyers did a better job. He was acquitted on the 2nd go around.
People like to assume that if they are in a SD shooting that it will be a clean SD shooting. While the use of lethal force may seem wholly justified to the shooter, that does not mean that will be how the rest of the world sees it.
With that said, my concern isn't trying to lawyer proof ammo. That just isn't going to happen. No matter what ammo you use, somebody can vilify it, such as the prosecution. And that extends to the bullet type, caliber, performance, firearm type, firearm make, etc.
Snyper is right in questioning the ability to make 5 well placed shots. People often fail miserably in making 1 well placed shot on dynamic bad guys that are threatening or trying to kill them. This is even a problem for many professional, skilled shooters in real life situations.
That is just it. If the person is convicted, then it wasn't an otherwise clean justified shooting. Where ammo has been a purported issue is in SD shootings where the issues in question were not clearly evident or clean. When there is a conviction, you will find that the gun writers and many folks feel that it was the ammo that was the reason for the conviction, such as with numerous discussion on the Harold Fish case. The prosecution did make a point out of vilifying the caliber and ammo he used. So obviously, it must have have been these factors that resulted in the conviction.
People drawing such a conclusion often failed to consider or give credence to the fact that the story Fish told did not fit the forensic evidence and that under the parameters of the law at the time (now changed, BTW), his shooting was not clean. His lawyer did an abysmal job. The law got changed. He got a new trial. His lawyers did a better job. He was acquitted on the 2nd go around.
People like to assume that if they are in a SD shooting that it will be a clean SD shooting. While the use of lethal force may seem wholly justified to the shooter, that does not mean that will be how the rest of the world sees it.
With that said, my concern isn't trying to lawyer proof ammo. That just isn't going to happen. No matter what ammo you use, somebody can vilify it, such as the prosecution. And that extends to the bullet type, caliber, performance, firearm type, firearm make, etc.
Snyper is right in questioning the ability to make 5 well placed shots. People often fail miserably in making 1 well placed shot on dynamic bad guys that are threatening or trying to kill them. This is even a problem for many professional, skilled shooters in real life situations.
zincwarrior
New member
In the Zimmerman trial they tried to turn his DAO into some sort of bloodthirsty killer's weapon. It was knocked down, but why make the prosecutor a present of anything.
When you consider defense ammo is generally more accurate of the standard loads, the only downside is price.
Andrew Wiggin
New member
Double Naught Spy, that was a really good post all the way around. I especially liked this part:
Something that gets lost in the handwaving about prosecutors making ridiculous assertions about ammo is that no matter what we choose, a prosecutor can make a pretty good go at convincing a jury that you are some manner of villain. Of course, any competent defense attorney can soundly smack down such claims and that makes the prosecutor lose faith and credibility for the jury. If you choose to carry a G23 loaded with 180 gr Gold Dot (that's actually my EDC), you would be carrying exactly the same gun and ammunition as a substantial percentage of law enforcement. That's exactly what Mas and others recommend. If you choose to do that, the prosecutor can easily paint the picture that you are some sort of wanna-be cop who couldn't make the cut to be a real police officer. I am a combat veteran so they'd probably say I'm some sort of unbalanced psycho.
Let's worry about surviving the encounter first and avoiding an indictment before winning at trial. Zimmerman never would have had to shoot the thug if he hadn't willfully put himself in a dangerous situation. Now, I'm not saying that his actions were illegal, but they were certainly foolish in hindsight. If we familiarize ourselves with use of force statutes in our state, keep less lethal options available, and attempt to avoid dangerous situations, we might be less likely to find ourselves in a bad spot. If we do have to shoot, we should co-operate with the police up to the point of identifying ourselves and our weapon and pointing out any bits of physical evidence or witnesses that we know to be present. We should give no statements at the time.
No matter what ammunition or weapon we choose, we could face legal trouble, but I think that in most places this risk is fairly low so long as we act in a reasonable and legal way and don't do something stupid after the fact.
Something that gets lost in the handwaving about prosecutors making ridiculous assertions about ammo is that no matter what we choose, a prosecutor can make a pretty good go at convincing a jury that you are some manner of villain. Of course, any competent defense attorney can soundly smack down such claims and that makes the prosecutor lose faith and credibility for the jury. If you choose to carry a G23 loaded with 180 gr Gold Dot (that's actually my EDC), you would be carrying exactly the same gun and ammunition as a substantial percentage of law enforcement. That's exactly what Mas and others recommend. If you choose to do that, the prosecutor can easily paint the picture that you are some sort of wanna-be cop who couldn't make the cut to be a real police officer. I am a combat veteran so they'd probably say I'm some sort of unbalanced psycho.
Let's worry about surviving the encounter first and avoiding an indictment before winning at trial. Zimmerman never would have had to shoot the thug if he hadn't willfully put himself in a dangerous situation. Now, I'm not saying that his actions were illegal, but they were certainly foolish in hindsight. If we familiarize ourselves with use of force statutes in our state, keep less lethal options available, and attempt to avoid dangerous situations, we might be less likely to find ourselves in a bad spot. If we do have to shoot, we should co-operate with the police up to the point of identifying ourselves and our weapon and pointing out any bits of physical evidence or witnesses that we know to be present. We should give no statements at the time.
No matter what ammunition or weapon we choose, we could face legal trouble, but I think that in most places this risk is fairly low so long as we act in a reasonable and legal way and don't do something stupid after the fact.
zincwarrior
New member
I would never make that assumption. Jurisdiction matters.
Houston- almost a nonissue. Genghis Khan would be be a lefty here.
San Antonio- you will be charged. It is highly likely you will be prosecuted.
Andrew Wiggin
New member
That's a fair point. I was generalizing across most locales. Same goes for Phoenix and Tucson, respectively.
Model12Win
Moderator
The cheap winchester white box hollow tips are good shells for the money. I carry them in my 9.
Ppu hollowpoints, 50 for 20$ at academy all expanded perfectly and penetrated well. I was suprised when comparing them to hydrashocks and xtp's, they actually perfermed Mich better than the hydras.
Btw, I now handload all my defense ammo and could care less what "experts" I have to say about it. I stay within published maximums and it saves me money. What court can't understand cheaper?
Btw, I now handload all my defense ammo and could care less what "experts" I have to say about it. I stay within published maximums and it saves me money. What court can't understand cheaper?
Andrew Wiggin
New member
Skizzums, what cartridge/load did you test and in what medium? I got very poor results from PPU 180 gr 10mm JHP. Velocity lower than you would expect for .40 S&W and no expansion.
Video link
Prvi Partizan 180 gr JHP, fired from 4.5" EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated 10% gelatin.
BB calibration: 603.8 fps, 3.5"
Velocity: 878.7 fps
Penetration: greater than 23"
Projectile left the block both shots. I believe it failed to expand both times.
PPU .223 loads are very good.
Bella, many states protect people from civil suits if they acted legally in a self defense shooting.
Video link
Prvi Partizan 180 gr JHP, fired from 4.5" EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated 10% gelatin.
BB calibration: 603.8 fps, 3.5"
Velocity: 878.7 fps
Penetration: greater than 23"
Projectile left the block both shots. I believe it failed to expand both times.
PPU .223 loads are very good.
Bella, many states protect people from civil suits if they acted legally in a self defense shooting.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Some posts dealing with the use of handloads for self defense have been deleted. That is not the subject of this thread and has the potential for becoming a huge hairball.
That question has been thoroughly discussed multiple time on this board. Anyone who is interested in that topic can find and review past threads through this Sticky: An Archive Regarding Reloads and Self-Defense.
We will not, however, be going over that well trod ground here.
That question has been thoroughly discussed multiple time on this board. Anyone who is interested in that topic can find and review past threads through this Sticky: An Archive Regarding Reloads and Self-Defense.
We will not, however, be going over that well trod ground here.
Andrew Wiggin
New member
That's a good call. I think some good points can be made on where, exactly that line lies for each of us on the matter of cost vs. quality for defensive use but rehashing the same tired arguments doesn't really get us anywhere. I was trying to put a fine point on the issue with the article but I think I may have failed to articulate my position well.
Uncle Buck
New member
One of the things I have not read in this thread, which I think would be extremely important, is which ever loads you carry, keep the rest of the partial box in a safe place.
If you ever have to use your self-defense gun and ammo, make sure there are some rounds left for the police to test.
My .45 ACP and .38 Special have the partial boxes on a shelf with a piece of tape on them that says "Self-Defense". If anything ever happens to me, my wife knows which boxes the ammo came from.
If you ever have to use your self-defense gun and ammo, make sure there are some rounds left for the police to test.
My .45 ACP and .38 Special have the partial boxes on a shelf with a piece of tape on them that says "Self-Defense". If anything ever happens to me, my wife knows which boxes the ammo came from.
Andrew Wiggin
New member
Well said. A handgun bullet that fails to expand doesn't turn into a Nerf dart.