CDC---they're baaaack

DaleA

New member
For the first time in decades, the director of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention -- the nation's top public health agency -- is speaking out forcefully about gun violence in America, calling it a "serious public health threat."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/27/health/cdc-gun-research-walensky/index.html

That it is a CNN story should tell you pretty much all you need to know.

HOWEVER...
She [CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky] said she doesn't want people to think she is trying to take away their guns.

(The emphasis is mine...the quote is all her.

Walensky seems careful to avoid the ire of gun rights activists -- she doesn't even like using the word "gun," preferring the term "firearm.

But then she does use the "g" word...

She invited gun owners to be part of the solution.
"Come to the table. Join us in the conversation," she said. "I want you to teach me what you have done to make your gun safe, and then I want you to teach everybody else," she added.

Personally I don't think of "violence" as a disease.
 
Here are a couple of options: Lock up criminals for progressively longer periods of time. Also, be honest and separate suicide (a personal choice) from crime (criminals victimizing others) in these discussions.
 
She [CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky] said she doesn't want people to think she is trying to take away their guns.

That's usually what they say when they want to take away our guns.

They're going to claim they are banned from studying gun violence. This is an outright lie. The Dickey amendment only states,

none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) may be used to advocate or promote gun control.

They can do all the research they want. They just can't use their money to send advocates up to Capitol Hill to lobby for it. In fact, they do roughly 10-12 studies on gun violence every year.

In 2013, the Obama administration made a big deal of allocating $10 million to the CDC to do a study. The Atlantic called it, “the “Executive Order the NRA Should Fear the Most.”

Then the CDC did their study, and...whoops.

Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies.

The number of public mass shootings of the type that occurred at Sandy Hook Elementary School accounted for a very small fraction of all firearm-related deaths. Since 1983 there have been 78 events in which 4 or more individuals were killed by a single perpetrator in 1 day in the United States, resulting in 547 victims and 476 injured persons.

There is empirical evidence that gun turn in programs are ineffective, as noted in the 2005 NRC study Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review. For example, in 2009, an estimated 310 million guns were available to civilians in the United States (Krouse, 2012), but gun buy-back programs typically recover less than 1,000 guns (NRC, 2005). On the local level, buy-backs may increase awareness of firearm violence. However, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, for example, guns recovered in the buy-back were not the same guns as those most often used in homicides and suicides (Kuhn et al., 2002).

Whether gun restrictions reduce firearm-related violence is an unresolved issue.

Care to guess why we never heard anything about this blue-ribbon study on the evening news? Yep.

Walensky can do all the studies she wants. In the past, attempting to weaponize the CDC has been something administrations do when they can't get gun-control done any other way. And it's never worked.
 
By re-defining the problem as a "heath issue," they hope to introduce the means to
regulate/restrict the RTKBA in an administrative fashion, and outside the the normal
Constitutional/legal challenges we traditionally consider.

The method now being bandied about is that the RTKBA should depend on the "common sense"
of having a "note from your doctor" that you are of sound mind as well as body.

That shouldn't be a problem... right?
After all... it's for the children.
 
The CDC, and Walensky in particular, are not in a position to dictate or mandate policy outside of disease, immunology, etc. It appears Walensky was emboldened by her eviction moratorium victory and now with the backing of anti-gunners is attempting to mandate another policy that does not fall under the CDC's auspices.
 
is attempting to mandate another policy that does not fall under the CDC's auspices.

Let them try. All eyes are on them right now, and there's actually a specific budget amendment prohibiting them from doing advocacy or policy on gun control.

If she wants to make the same mistake Kellerman and Rosenberg did, it's going to backfire.
 
That's usually what they say when they want to take away our guns.

They're going to claim they are banned from studying gun violence. This is an outright lie. The Dickey amendment only states,



They can do all the research they want. They just can't use their money to send advocates up to Capitol Hill to lobby for it. In fact, they do roughly 10-12 studies on gun violence every year.

""$10 million to the CDC to do a study. The Atlantic called it, “the Obama adminstration “Executive Order the NRA Should Fear the Most.

Then the CDC did their study, and...whoops.









Care to guess why we never heard anything about this blue-ribbon study on the evening news? Yep.

Walensky can do all the studies she wants. In the past, attempting to weaponize the CDC has been something administrations do when they can't get gun-control done any other way. And it's never worked.

In 2013, the Obama administration made a big deal of allocating $10 million to the CDC to do a study. The Atlantic called it, “the “Executive Order the NRA Should Fear the Most.”

Say's it all!
 
The CDC just got slapped down over the tyrannical eviction moratorium, thank God. Vigilance is the price of freedom. Support the people fighting through lawful channels behind the scenes.
 
TBL004 said:
The CDC, and Walensky in particular, are not in a position to dictate or mandate policy outside of disease, immunology, etc.
That's precisely why she, and the CDC in general, are bending over backwards to define "gun violence" as a health (epidemiology) issue/disease. It isn't a disease, but you know how it works -- repeat a lie long enough, often enough, and loud enough, and sooner or later it becomes accepted as "truth."

It appears Walensky was emboldened by her eviction moratorium victory and now with the backing of anti-gunners is attempting to mandate another policy that does not fall under the CDC's auspices.
But the Supreme Court -- by a 6-3 vote -- just shot down the evictions moratorium as unconstitutional, and outside the authority of the CDC.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politic...own-biden-administrations-eviction-moratorium

The decision: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/21a23_ap6c.pdf
 
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. :D

Does anyone here want to see more gun violence? I know that your answer is a resounding NO. A lot of you have said as much a number of times. So why not let the CDC investigate ways to reduce gun violence?

The results so far do not look like they’re coming from an anti-gun organization. They are not cherry-picking results to publish. They published statements like
“… consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims …”
”… number of public mass shootings … accounted for a very small fraction of all firearm-related deaths.”

In other words, they are publishing all their findings and not hiding information that wouldn’t support an agenda. That’s what real scientists do. If the media have not published these findings, that’s on them, not the CDC.

I like that the law prohibits the CDC from taking a stance on gun control. With that protection in place, I say let them study the matter. If they can come up with any useful information that gun owners can apply to help reduce gun violence, more power to them.
 
"Come to the table. Join us in the conversation," she said. "I want you to teach me what you have done to make your gun safe, and then I want you to teach everybody else," she added.
Not that MORE government involvement would help, but does anyone ever remember one of the ABC organizations recommending K-12 Firearms Education and Safety classes? I can see many ways that could go wrong with liberal teachers and school admin, but with TX coming up on Constitutional Carry- the realization that firearm toters now have zero requirement (and dang little incentive) to get education such as safe weapon handling skills and legal do's and don't's. That is just my opinion that some sort of mandatory education be required. And, as we all know- ignorance is no excuse of the law.
I recall seeing the quality of drivers we have here when they took Driver's Ed out of the schools, which pretty much coincided with the popularity of cell phones and other hand held devices. Yes, I'm all for the Constitution- but I'm also of the mindset that maybe not all folks ought to be armed up and turned loose. And there's some that could just use a little guidance and learning in order to become safe and responsible firearm owners. Again, thems just my thoughts- feel free to rip me a new one for em.
 
I find it amazing that no one wants to hear were the real gun violence actually takes place in the vast majority of cases. One city alone has more gun violence than in some foreign war zones. A area that has proven that gun laws are nothing but a joke total JOKE.
Maybe they should clean up their own damn back yard.
 
10-96 said:
Yes, I'm all for the Constitution- but I'm also of the mindset that maybe not all folks ought to be armed up and turned loose. And there's some that could just use a little guidance and learning in order to become safe and responsible firearm owners. Again, thems just my thoughts- feel free to rip me a new one for em.
I understand and, to a degree, sympathize with where you're coming from. That said, when anyone (not just you) says, "I'm all for the Constitution - BUT ..." it sends up HUGE red flags for me. It's like being a little bit pregnant. You can't be all for the Constitution "except ... ." You're either for it, or you're not.

The Second Amendment has been part of the Constitution -- the highest law of the land -- for 230 years. There is no training requirement in the Second Amendment.

The Constitution has a built-in mechanism for making changes. If the will of the People is to make firearms safety training a mandatory prerequisite to exercising the right to keep and bear arms, the appropriate way to impose that requirement is by a constitutional amendment. ANY other way of imposing such a prerequisite -- at either the state or the national level -- is unconstitutional.

That doesn't mean that I'm against firearms training. I'm an NRA instructor, certified in multiple disciplines. I believe in training, but as a constitutional principle I believe that training must remain voluntary. A compromise: teach EVERYONE firearms safety in the schools -- unrelated to whether or not the students ever wish or intend to carry a firearm or even own one. It has already been noted that schools in the U.S. almost universally refuse to entertain the idea of bringing the excellent Eddy Eagle program into the schools -- but (IMHO) that's exactly where we should start.
 
So why not let the CDC investigate ways to reduce gun violence?

That was one of my points: they do research gun violence. Despite the outright lie that they're prohibited from doing so, they publish numerous studies every year.

What they're not allowed to do, and what Walenski appears to be pushing, is advocating for new restrictions.
 
but (IMHO) that's exactly where we should start.
That's a hard "but" to get around, isn't it? Yes, I agree, the Eddy Eagle program would be ideal. I have no background in education or school administration, but it sure appears to me that it would be just a matter of writing a basic class plan and then presenting the material. If I had my say, it would be presented to the students every two years to accommodate students different levels of retention and/or absorption as their minds grown and mature.
I wonder if (for the politicians and politically appointed) that the war on <gun> violence is the same as the war on drugs? Read- it's more profitable to keep fighting it than it is to win it.
 
That was one of my points: they do research gun violence. Despite the outright lie that they're prohibited from doing so, they publish numerous studies every year.

What they're not allowed to do, and what Walenski appears to be pushing, is advocating for new restrictions.

I haven't done a very deep search, but what I'm finding, and have believed for a long time, is that Congress has not allowed any funds for the CDC to use on studying gun violence. Trump signed a bill in the last year or so that made the money available for the first time in a long time. They might have done some minor research, but nothing very useful.

I don't see where Walensky is saying she wants new restrictions. Sure, it's possible she has that on the back burner. She is inviting gun owners to join in the search for solutions. Could be smoke and mirrors, of course. Everyone in every government uses smoke and mirrors.
 
Congress has not allowed any funds for the CDC to use on studying gun violence

That's an actual lie they tell, and nobody seems to call them on it. Gun-control advocates have repeated it so loudly and so often that it's now taken as an axiom. The text of the Dickey amendment reads as such:

none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) may be used to advocate or promote gun control.

And there's good reason. By 1996, the CDC started doing exactly what Walenski is feeling out now. In 1994, Dr. Katherine Christoffel, a member of the CDC-funded Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan was quoted as saying, “guns are a virus that must be eradicated… They are causing an epidemic of death by gunshot, which should be treated like any epidemic…you get rid of the virus…get rid of the guns, get rid of the bullets, and you get rid of deaths.”

Later that year, CDC head Mark Rosenberg told the Washington Post, “we need to revolutionize the way we look at guns, like we did with cigarettes. Now it is dirty, deadly and banned.” He also published an article in one journal entitled “The Bullet as Pathogen.”

And that's why we have the Dickey amendment. The CDC absolutely can (and does) conduct and underwrite research on the phenomenon. They just can't send people to Capitol Hill to lobby for laws restricting gun ownership.
 
She invited gun owners to be part of the solution.
"Come to the table. Join us in the conversation," she said. "I want you to teach me what you have done to make your gun safe, and then I want you to teach everybody else," she added.

Come sit at my table and ask me that question and I'll tell you the honest and simple answer, though I doubt she would actually learn anything from it, since it obviously runs counter to her preconceptions and beliefs.

My guns are safe. They are inanimate objects, and do not have to ability to do anything on their own. They are as safe as the rocks in the field, or the shoes on your feet. They are as safe as the books in my house, and the chair I sit in and every other inanimate object we encounter in our daily lives.

It is the hand, and the will of MAN that creates and is responsible for all risks and dangers with firearms and nearly everything else in this world that isn't a force of nature.

Guns don't load themselves, don't aim themselves, don't pull their own triggers. Even accidents happen only because some person created the situation where they could.

I'm past the point of being fed up with the phrase "gun violence", despite it being embedded in America's popular language. It is neither accurate, nor good grammar.

It is a well crafted piece of linguistic garbage used to infer that the gun is the problem, and the reason for the violence.

The CDC wants "gun violence" to be accepted by everyone as a disease, and therefore within their purview. Follow the $$. The more things they are responsible for dealing with, the more money they get. Personal ideologies aside, it really is that simple.

Next add in ideology and the modern medical philosophy that says the responsibility of doctors is to protect us from harm (as they define it) whether we want them to or not.

Why are we concerned that as soon as the CDC starts talking about guns they are talking about and promoting gun control? Because that's what they did in the past!! To the extent that specific rules were created to prevent that, as explained in other posts here. And, as pointed out, the law does not prevent them studying the issue, it prevents political advocacy of a viewpoint. Not because of the "gun lobby" or the NRA but because NO government agency should advocate ANY political point of view. I believe that function is reserved for Congress.

Personally, I think one place they ought to spend their time studying is the effect, over lifetimes of the entertainment industry's use of guns in their product. Take a look at the "victims of gun violence" from the beginning of 20th century to present. (you can go back further but you don't need to).

Look at the fact that in the roaring 20s and the 30s, the era of Prohibition, gang wars and the "motor bandits", mass shooting were extremely unusual events. And, note how often people actual saw people getting shot.

In those days, if you were well off enough, you might go to movies, as much as once a week. Most people a lots less. You might see a western or a gangster movie with a lot of gunplay and people getting shot for an hour or two. The rest of the week was normal life. Move up to the 50s and TVs in our homes. Now you could see people being shot every day, often several times a day. AS entertainment. Jump forward another 20 years and we get 24-hour TV (for the few, at first) jump again and now we have 24hr tv for everyone and another jump takes us to 24hr TV for everyone everywhere. Your TV, your phone, tablet, computer, etc. And enough channels and content that today, you can watch people being shot for entertainment everywhere you can watch any screen every minute of every day.

I'm not going to try and quantify the effect, nor is this the place to debate the influence of it on individuals, but you cannot tell me that there is no effect.

Training films DO WORK. I don't think that is a matter for discussion, its proven fact. How well they work is open to discussion.

If its ok to ban "hate speech" because of its "impact" on people what do you do with endless multiple mass shooting on TV screens 24/7? Ignore it because its free speech? because its fiction? OK, then you should also treat all other free speech the same way, including what you disagree with. Our govt is required to do that. First Amendment.

Another point I think worthy of study concerning the problem of too many people shooting people is the effect the last half century or so's changes to our legal system has created. What seems to have gone away is the general population's (and particularly the criminal element's) belief in the certainty of harsh punishment. No one criminally shoots someone else believing they are going to be caught, but there was a time when the general belief was that if you were caught, and convicted, you were going to do hard time, or for murder, you would get the chair, the gas chamber, or be hanged.
That seems to be lacking today.

Might be worth studying why that is.

On the other hand, with what's going on today, why are we allowing them to waste their time and our money on what is a criminal problem, not a disease problem? Don't they have more than enough to do with COVID, and everything else they are already doing, (and much of it badly?)

Doctors (and especially govt ones) ruling our lives in the name of safety, is, and should be a personal choice. When its not, its just as bad as when politicians do it without using the face of a doctor to hide behind.

Pardon the rant, but his is one of my "button" issues.

Watch this closely people, I believe we are being sold a bill of goods, without any goods ever being delivered.
 
10-96 said:
That's a hard "but" to get around, isn't it? Yes, I agree, the Eddy Eagle program would be ideal. I have no background in education or school administration, but it sure appears to me that it would be just a matter of writing a basic class plan and then presenting the material.
There's no need to write a class plan. The NRA has already done that. "All" that's needed is to convince whatever board of education controls your school(s) to add the Eddy Eagle program to the curriculum. If the NEA member teachers don't want to get certified to teach it -- I'm certain there must be at least one NRA-certified instructor in every county in the country who would be more than happy to come into schools once a year to present the Eddy Eagle program.
 
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