CCW & Speed of Deployment

MX5,
I still think anything is possible. Sure it is HIGHLY unlikely that one can shoot 3 shots in 1 second from concealment in a REAL situation, but with practice you never know what could happen. By the way, your movie clip seems pretty good. You are fast, but are you saying there is no one on this earth 30% faster? Also, I don't pretend to know the limits of human function, although some have made accusations that they do, such as the claim that man will never break 10 seconds in the 100-meter dash, or that man will never break a 4-minute mile. You pose great points, but anything is possible.
 
Something else to consider in this discussion...

Is the difference between reaction time and self-initiated time.

The Bill Jordan story is the illustration of this. Mr. Jordan initiated the action, and the deputy reacted to it. Mr. Jordan was drawing and shooting out of an open topped, exposed duty holster, not a tight to the body concealment rig. At best, the deputy would fire shortly after Mr. Jordan, simply because of the reaction time lag.

So we're back to the speed difference between the .32 Auto and the .45. How are each carried and what is the impulse to fire? If the scene is the .32 is in a pocket and the shooter has his hand on it and he gets to initiate, he can possibly beat someone to the first shot. I flat do not believe anyone can get any handgun out of a pocket and score a hit faster than a average shooter can draw from a concealed holster and make a hit; if both start at the same impulse. (That is, a third party starter blowing a whistle or turning on a light.) By the way, the greater part of the time is to the first shot; second and subsequent shots are fairly easy, absent some montrously recoiling thingie.

I often carry a K frame revolver in a trouser pocket. If I have to draw and shoot someone, you can be sure I am not going to ask, "shooter ready?"

The best I've ever done speed shooting was 3.0 seconds. That was drawing from a belt holster, and making one hit on each of five 12x18 gong targets at 25 yards. I was shooting a 4 inch double action revolver.
 
Double Naught Spy,

There are a number of plausible reasons why the Jordan demo man didn't pull the trigger. Those which I think is most likely are a combination of over confidence and surprize. I have never seen film footage of Jordan in action, but I suspect he was very smooth with an economy of movement; perceiving the beginning of the draw may have been difficult were both subjects making eye contact at the time. I do not think it was staged beyond that. The "deputy" may have been a regular court bailiff - I have a written account somewhere and shall have to track it down.
 
Okay, I'm trying to discuss ONE variable and we are getting talk about all kinds of variables. "All else being equal" doesn't seem to work here, but I thought up a better one (I think). Okay, for any given one of you, do you think you could deploy your gun faster if it weighed, oh, let's say 15% less than it does now, with no change of balance or physical dimensions or concealment method or any other variables? Yes or no. My answer is "yes."
 
Okay, for any given one of you, do you think you could deploy your gun faster if it weighed, oh, let's say 15% less than it does now, with no change of balance or physical dimensions or concealment method or any other variables?
Click to expand...

Yes and no, or it depends. This isn't as cut and dried as one might think. The heavy and stable vs. light and fast debate has raged on for decades when shooters discuss the "shootability" of a handgun. For the sake of discussions let's consider weight as it realtes to the draw stroke a part of the "shootability" equation.

I shot an IPSC open division pistol for a couple of years that was quite heavy. The gun had a 9 ounce tungsten magazine well from Beven Gramms and a tungsten guide rod. I removed the tungten and downloaded the magazine when I shot steel Challenge. Why did I put the gun on a diet? Simple because the pistol was faster to draw without the tungsten. Was it fater to index? Nope. In this case, the weight reduction was more than 15%.

Let's move to a more common pistol. Let's say my Limited 10 gun, a Les Baer Premier II. I shoot IPSC with a 10 round magazine and I also use a tungsten guide rod. Is my draw faster with a standard recoil plug and one round in the chamber with an empty 7 round magazine. No, there is no difference at all. Now let's go to my lightweight commander sized pistol at 28 ounces. Is the lighter gun with an empty magazine faster to draw than the full size 1911 with a full magazine of 230 ball and the tunsten rod? Nope, it's not any faster. :)

Let's talk about my Glock 26. Is the gun faster to draw with one round in the chamber and no magazine than fully loaded with 12 rounds? No it is not. Would the gun be faster if it weighed 12 ounces empty instead of 20 ounces? I honestly believe I would be slower to the first shot and here is why.

When one considers the mechanics of a super fast draw, we find the time to the gun isn't as important as what happens once the grip is formed. Slapping leather doesn't make you substantially faster, popping the pistol quickly out of the holster is what makes us fast. Physics is physics and once the inertia is quickly over come, the heavier pistol will actually want to stay in motion on a line to the target better than a light whippy pistol. Yes, if the gun is too heavy we run out of steam, but too light and another set of problems will surface.

Another key to getting a shot off very quickly is to fire the gun at the very instant the gun reaches the end of the draw stroke. I can ease a 1911 to full extension and fire at the instant the gun is in alignment, even during the last part of the extension, because the pistol is easing to a halt and the stability of the gun (weight) helps. If you thrust a mouse gun to full extension the gun will bounce around like a tuning fork. A person can only move just so fast while still performing the mechanics of the draw stroke. Is a sub compact pistol faster to draw than a full size gun? Not for me.
 
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"Okay, for any given one of you, do you think you could deploy your gun faster if it weighed, oh, let's say 15% less than it does now, with no change of balance or physical dimensions or concealment method or any other variables?"


Ahhhh. Finally you understand that we didn't understand what you were getting at.

No.

CB3
 
MX5 - Nice post. In your "physics is physics" paragraph you mention inertia. I don't see how a heavier gun is going to be accelerated more quickly than a lighter gun. I assume you will be shooting as the heavier pistol is still moving, since if you slow it down, it will take more time than a lighter pistol to slow it down, causing it to be slower to manipulate at the start and the finish of the draw.
 
Unique 5.7:

Yes, a lighter gun takes less effort to put in motion and it is easier to slow down once in motion. I snap the pistol out of the holster with vigor and a heavy gun (to a point) stays on line better than a light whippy gun and it slows down by itself as it runs out of momentum without me inducing a bunch of human error. I believe that's why it slides to the end of the draw stroke without bouncing all over the place.
 
MX5 - You make a very good point about controllability with a heavier gun and it not bouncing around. The physics of this has a lot to do with deployment of tennis racquets, not just guns, and I play with just about the heaviest racquet made for stability. A heavier gun sure will be more stable on follow up shots.
 
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