CCW question

jgrns said:
How about driving away???!!!
Click to expand...
Possibly because he's at a gas station where he's pumping gas that he has not prepaid for. I can pump at many stations where I live without prepaying. Not paying for (stealing) gas tends to be highly frowned upon. Then again, it may be a better alternative than shooting an individual. You can always go back and pay. Also, many stations don't allow customers to pump without a credit card at the pump or without prepaying, so if that is the case, then that would rule out that reason not to drive away.

Also, since he's at a gas station, has anyone ever thought about the danger of expending a round near so many gas fumes? The burning of the powder may be dangerous in that scenario. I am curious to see what others think of this possible danger.

I don't know what to think about this scenario, but the best advice in this scenario is the following.

OnTheFly said:
Do not draw a weapon unless you feel that your life, or the lives of your loved ones are in jeopardy.
Do not draw your weapon unless you plan to use it.
Shoot to stop the threat. This doesn't equal kill, it means shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.
Click to expand...
 
How about being aware of your surroundings and never letting the guy in.
1. Be aware of your surroundings its survival of the fittest
2. Lock your door
3. If you were to be harmed, a criminal with intent to harm would have done it as soon as he jumped in the car. If he was going to rob you as soon as he was moving to do it he would have been a step ahead of you with his weapon what ever it maybe ready for action. Then once you stepped out of the car he would jump in the driver seat and drove away. People need money not jail on a murder one rap.

Don't be anti-gun loser, trolling to hear negative remarks on how we would blast him or cap him, no questions asked! The people on this forum are law abiding and have more knowledge of legislature and laws than most of the law writers themselves. Have alot of common sense and will help newbs if need be. So if you are a newb and just asking questions, welcome to TFL, if you're a troller. Please leave us be. Thank you and God Bless.
 
I really don't appreciate the negative responses here. I'm a new gun owner looking into a CCW permit and I'm trying to determine what you can do if you have drawn on someone and they get close enough to take the weapon from you.

Again, I don't appreciate the negativism. I hope all new members aren't treated in this manner.
 
I'm a new gun owner looking into a CCW permit and I'm trying to determine what you can do if you have drawn on someone and they get close enough to take the weapon from you.
Click to expand...


I would advise you to take classes to this end. There are far too many variables, including local and state laws, to do much justice to a scenario like you have presented. Many areas require training classes to issue permits but those classes are, at best, elementary level and frequently nothing more than "Don't point your gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy." which, while important, should be the basis of gun ownership not concealed carry. The NRA and many other organizations, probably some local to you, can provide you with the information and training you require. Your local permit issuing office can (or should be able to) direct you to the appropriate places.


Again, I don't appreciate the negativism. I hope all new members aren't treated in this manner.
Click to expand...

*Sigh* It is all to common. :o:barf:
 
We don't mean to be negative, we TFLers are very careful and critical about our guns. And although you cought the sharp end of the sword, we have had alot of trollers just trying to get us rowled up and say thngs they want gun owners to say just to strengthen there arguements that we gun toting bandits are crazy.:eek:

So please accept our apology, and welcome to TFL, I trust you will fin lots of knowledge here and alot of fun threads. If you are into guns and do want to learn just hang around and you will see things get real good. Well start here http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194868&highlight=lawdog+files I promise you'll enjoy it.
 
alzika,

Glad to hear you deny the suspicions brought on by my paranoia. However, you have to understand. It happens fairly often that an anti (a.k.a. "Troll") will come on this website and post a similar question. Not to learn or expand their knowledge, but to re-educate TFL members as to our wrong mindset. So I apologize for taking an immediate defensive position.

That being said, you will find many helpful people here on TFL. Despite the negative comments, I think many have already given you great advice about where to start. Most of it centers around getting some kind of training and having a basic understanding of your local/state law. Start with a basic firearms class and work your way up to a defensive shooting course. Read, read, read, and read some more. You won't find one single document that gives you a step by step process of assessing when it is justified to use lethal force. You will, however, find opinions and real life events that can shape your mindset.

Before you have to use any of these new found skills from your training and the knowledge amassed from your studies, some of the best advise is to be aware of your surroundings. Be cautious and observant. Stay near other people or simply leave the area.

If you haven't used the feature, search TFL. Specifically the "Tactics and Training" section. Ask more questions here, but understand that you will hear over and over the same statements as you witnessed in this thread. Be aware of your surroundings, leave the situation, be in imminent danger with no escape before drawing and firing, etc.

Finally...welcome to TFL. Stick around and you will find that we aren't all as bad as I initially came off. At least the other guys here aren't as bad as I am. :rolleyes:

Fly
 
Welcome to TFL.
Your response has allayed my fears about your sincerity.
I am sorry for offending.

I do stand by my opinion, though.

Let's say that a guy jumps in the car with me at a gas station. I get out of the car and draw my weapon on him and he gets out of my car, as well.
Click to expand...
There was no reason to draw at that point.
By drawing your weapon at this point you create the situation that you find yourself in in the second paragraph of your scenario.

Do get some training.
It is worth every penny you pay for it.
They will cover not only your weapon, but when to use it.
 
It seems to me that there are some here who need to enroll in a refresher course for CCW education.

There is only "rule" regarding DRAWING your weapon. You can legally draw your weapon if you have a reasonable expectation that you may need to use your weapon in order to protect yourself of someone else from bodily harm. But you had better know your state and locality's brandishing laws forwards and backwards...and you had better be the first dialing 911 to report a weapons incident.

If your life is in jeopardy and wait until those three criteria are meet, you may be dead before you can draw your weapon. Those three rules that were listed in previous posts are the (general) criteria that need to be meet in order to pull the trigger.
 
Get out of the car taking your keys go to the station office and if it's needed have them cal 911 for you, you don't need to display the weapon yet. If he pulls a knife and advances that's different. If he has no weapon get certified for pepper spray. Anytime you use pepper spray or pull your weapon CALL THE POLICE and do it first. If he calss them and says you sprayed him or brandished a firearm at him and you haven't called the police first your going to be looked on as the bad guy.
 
That's good advice. Distance and attention are your friends. One might recommend to start shouting : Police, call the police, get away from me!

Establish you are the victim and retreat.

One hidden suggestion in this is that you are in a Tueller Drill scenario but without clear indication of a weapon, direct threats with a giant disparity in force - it would be hard to justify opening fire.

Don't have a focus on the gun - everything is a nail, when you draw a hammer - so to speak.

This also speaks as others have to get training that includes the continuum of responses and not just handgun usage. Mindset, tactics, AOJP, ADEE - etc. should be part of your mental armory.
 
Maybe the car was a bad example. I see posts here all of the time where people say they had to draw on someone. An example, which I'm mostly just recalling from memory: a guy is walking through parking lot and notices someone shady walking towards him. he tells the guy to stop and the guy continues to slowly walk towards him. at this point, the weapon is drawn.

now, were the actions of the CCW holder correct in the scenario I posted above?

if so, what happens if the person continues to advance, up to the point where they can fight you for your weapon?
 
Maybe the car was a bad example. I see posts here all of the time where people say they had to draw on someone. An example, which I'm mostly just recalling from memory: a guy is walking through parking lot and notices someone shady walking towards him. he tells the guy to stop and the guy continues to slowly walk towards him. at this point, the weapon is drawn.

now, were the actions of the CCW holder correct in the scenario I posted above?

if so, what happens if the person continues to advance, up to the point where they can fight you for your weapon?
Click to expand...

I didn't draw the weapon, I just thought about it real hard. :D And he wasn't moving slowly by any means.

Assuming you're talking about the Wal-mart parking lot thread.
 
change of scenario

Now, you put a new scenario about being in a parking lot and a guy is approaching you.

You verbally gave the command to back off and he still continues. You draw and show you have a gun. He still continues....

Well I would say the guy has made his intentions known and has become a legal threat to you. Just as you say.... if he's too close he may take your gun and subdue you. He's there to do you harm.

No sane person would advance on a person with a gun.

Ultimately, this situation depends on many factors but... if he continues to advance at you - he's making a threatening movement.

So for other factors:
1) how far is he from you
2) how fast is he moving towards you
3) is there others around you (is this an isolated part of the parking lot)
4) is there more than one person

What's next?

Take aim and Command him to stop. If he still advances he's a threat.

Use enough force to stop the threat. Remember your not the attacker. You are defending yourself. Does this mean it could mean lethal force... sure.
 
Lots of folks have used justified deadly force only to have their lives ruined in civil court. Just because one is within the bounds of criminal law doesn't mean you won't be dragged into court. In the first scenario if the guy wants your car, let him have it. You have insurance for that. What is the deductible on your policy? $500? $1000? How much legal representation do you think you can buy for that?

In scenario number two you have shown the bad guy your weapon. You have commanded him to stop. He has not so you have a reasonable fear for your life or health. Shoot him.
 
If you draw you shoot when push comes to shove.

However, I think you are not ready for ccw yet since first you need to figure out when to use or not to use the gun, and possibly take seld defense with handgun classes.
 
If you draw you do not have to shoot

If you draw. This does not equate to you have to shoot. Drawing is a sequence in stepping up the need to respond to a situation.

For obvious reasons, if you draw the level of threat is great. But if the bad guy (BD) runs away you don't shoot. But on the other hand if they keep coming then that's the next step. Shoot if you have to.

Just remember for every action there is a responsibility or consequence to those actions.

----
Yes, do take a class on the legal issues surrounding concealed carry in your state. It's good to know the basics of your state laws and be familiar with the legal intent of "lethal force."
 
Last edited:
When I went to the police basic school, oh so many years ago, they had a drill using video and a push button. The camera was your eyes, and the button the trigger of your sidearm. You would go through several senarios and you had to decide if you could shoot or not. By the end of the drill everybody in the class was shooting anyone they saw in the video!. One of the senarios was you were approached in a parking lot by a bruiser of a man
who would not stop when warned several times. He did not display a weapon, but kept on coming. Turns out he was deaf..The point is you are on your own when you pull the trigger, police officer or civilian. If you can retreat ..retreat.
The best advice I have read here,( including mine), is go get some serious training!
Regards,
TomD:)
 
I just knew that would come up

I knew that "deaf" equation would come up.

Just remember if you point a gun at a deaf person (but they can see) they're not likely to approach you for whatever reason.

If they're blind then how would they know to approach you - if they can hear then your screaming at them would deter them too.

There are a lot of variable and factors that come in. Situational awareness is a key. Know is happening and be aware of it.

Retreating does have a legal and logical aspect but you can only retreat so much before you lose tactical superiority even with a gun.

So, on the other hand don't shoot if the guy is 100 ft away. If they get close enough to you... what is too close. Below 25 ft. You have to remember our normal space boundary is about 6 feet. Most shootings I've heard is about 21 feet (7 yards). Why? A man running can be on you within less than 2 seconds. This is too close.

The "Castle Doctine" comes into play a bit. Might want to research what that means. Just Google it and you'll find a lot of info.
 
now, were the actions of the CCW holder correct in the scenario I posted above?
if so, what happens if the person continues to advance, up to the point where they can fight you for your weapon?
Click to expand...
No, the actions are not correct. The person has as much right to be there as you do. You don't get to threaten people and brandish weapons just because you don't like it that they are doing something totally legal. It is not illegal to walk towards you, it is not illegal to ignore people without any authority over you who are giving you orders, it is not illegal to to walk within a few inches of someone else. If you pull out your gun and point it at him, you are probably the one committing the crime and he is probably legally allowed to use deadly force against you to stop your actions.
 
Have to disagree with you to a degree

Your turning it on the flipside a bit too far.

The scenario was in a parking lot (most likely empty) and a strange guy approaches. You feel threatened and warn him off. He continues advancing and more threatening.

Yes, people are free to roam all over the place but not be threatening to others. There is a "social" distance typically about 6 feet in semi crowded areas and if more crowded mere inches but that's usually in a crowded auditorium or elevator. In an empty parking lot that's a whole different animal.

Are you a defense attorney because this BG has more rights than the good citizen just taking care of their business.

Back to point. Would a reasonable citizen feel threated by an approaching person when there is obviously other routes this person can take rather than straight at you. Yes. So, who is in the wrong here. The good citizen has asked for the other to comply and be less threatening. In this scenario they have not and have actually indicated to be someone more threatening, therefore, the need to escualate the response has increased. etc, etc.

It's a two sided road we live in. But a good citizen would avoid the situation and not threaten others. Also, if I was the guy walking and someone was asking me to walk someplace else and I can see I was causing that person fear - what would a respectable citizen do. Provoke or just go around?

Dave, Would you go forward when a person is obviously afraid of you?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top