Double Naught Spy
New member
And this is why many states such as Texas require instruction and testing over the relevant use of force laws and use of lethal force laws.
Armed and ignorant of the law isn't a good combination.
CCW Pursues, Shoots Robber
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And this is why many states such as Texas require instruction and testing over the relevant use of force laws and use of lethal force laws.
Armed and ignorant of the law isn't a good combination.
NJgunowner
New member
Seems like this guy and his sister liked armed robbery, so I'm not personally too upset over his getting shot. However, if the guy was leaving the scene the most I'd have done is follow him until I could get the cops there. If he wasn't pointing his gun at me or someone else right at that instant I wouldn't have risked the possible jail time or legal hassles that could crop up from this.
I don't have a caped crusader complex and I'm way too fond of my stuff to risk it.
I don't have a caped crusader complex and I'm way too fond of my stuff to risk it.
Alpha Wolf
New member
Is it just me or has the world flipped upside down.??? 
Two people hold up a woman at gun point, pistol whip her and run. A CCW holder gives chase and catches up. Bad guy/girl draw gun(s) on CCW holder.
CCW holder shoots and kills the guy.
Now he is the focus of a criminal investigation??? *** is wrong with this world.
At the same time people bitch about others standing around and doing nothing when women are attacked or raped in public.
The law needs to decide that is okay to help others who are being attacked. It needs to decide that when you rob/rape/attack/burglarize etc you are a criminal and those who have to act to defend against them are in fact the victims here. Sorry, but it is insane to require you to hand over all your stuff house/car/money and run like a coward vs defending yourself or others.
It seems the Police and DAs around the country are more concerned with what good people do with guns to defend themselves and their property instead of focusing on bad guys/gals. It seem simple. If you do not want to risk getting shot, do not rob/attack/rape/assault/burglarize etc... If you do IMHO it is just tough what happens to you.
I guess I am too old at 54 as it is now wrong to defend yourself and others. And right to feel all teary about a robber/rapist/burglar who by their own action gets killed/or shot.
We really need to wake up people and vote these DAs and judges out who feel law abiding citizens defending themselves are more dangerous than gangs. The truth is they go after law abiding citizens because it is way safer and easier than to arrest a real criminal....
Two people hold up a woman at gun point, pistol whip her and run. A CCW holder gives chase and catches up. Bad guy/girl draw gun(s) on CCW holder.
CCW holder shoots and kills the guy.
Now he is the focus of a criminal investigation??? *** is wrong with this world.
At the same time people bitch about others standing around and doing nothing when women are attacked or raped in public.
The law needs to decide that is okay to help others who are being attacked. It needs to decide that when you rob/rape/attack/burglarize etc you are a criminal and those who have to act to defend against them are in fact the victims here. Sorry, but it is insane to require you to hand over all your stuff house/car/money and run like a coward vs defending yourself or others.
It seems the Police and DAs around the country are more concerned with what good people do with guns to defend themselves and their property instead of focusing on bad guys/gals. It seem simple. If you do not want to risk getting shot, do not rob/attack/rape/assault/burglarize etc... If you do IMHO it is just tough what happens to you.
I guess I am too old at 54 as it is now wrong to defend yourself and others. And right to feel all teary about a robber/rapist/burglar who by their own action gets killed/or shot.
We really need to wake up people and vote these DAs and judges out who feel law abiding citizens defending themselves are more dangerous than gangs. The truth is they go after law abiding citizens because it is way safer and easier than to arrest a real criminal....
In this particular case, the public legal establishment seems quite supportive of the good samaritan... Seems that he wasn't charged with anything and was released after questioning... I wouldn't say he's the "focus of a criminal investigation" on the part of the authorities.
But private lawyers are another story... Some will try to get $ wherever they can... And the courts have to suffer them to some degree... Sometimes, it's a pity... But it's America... All sides tend to be heard for better or for worse...
But private lawyers are another story... Some will try to get $ wherever they can... And the courts have to suffer them to some degree... Sometimes, it's a pity... But it's America... All sides tend to be heard for better or for worse...
Fishing_Cabin
New member
Glenn,
You bring up a good point with your comment of "If the good guy chaser wasn't authorized to use lethal force in this instance - it may well be self-defense on the crook's part to draw a gun."
I seem to remember years back one of the required videos for the NC concealed carry class showed a scene which was similar.
If the criminal was retreating, leaving the area, it could be difficult to prove self defense, since the good guy was chasing after the criminal at this point, so, technically, the tables were turned.
_________
To the OP,
I would not say its wrong or illegal to help your neighbors, or to defend them, even with lethal force if needed. We all should be careful because as I said in my reply to Glenn, it can be difficult to argue self defense if the criminal is retreating, or leaving.
Perhaps a good course of action would be once the criminal had left, to take the neighbor/friend, etc in to your house/car/what have you and call 911 for help, and be a good witness, while rendering any basic medical help if needed.
Just my opinion. feel free to disagree and enjoy the day!
You bring up a good point with your comment of "If the good guy chaser wasn't authorized to use lethal force in this instance - it may well be self-defense on the crook's part to draw a gun."
I seem to remember years back one of the required videos for the NC concealed carry class showed a scene which was similar.
If the criminal was retreating, leaving the area, it could be difficult to prove self defense, since the good guy was chasing after the criminal at this point, so, technically, the tables were turned.
_________
To the OP,
I would not say its wrong or illegal to help your neighbors, or to defend them, even with lethal force if needed. We all should be careful because as I said in my reply to Glenn, it can be difficult to argue self defense if the criminal is retreating, or leaving.
Perhaps a good course of action would be once the criminal had left, to take the neighbor/friend, etc in to your house/car/what have you and call 911 for help, and be a good witness, while rendering any basic medical help if needed.
Just my opinion. feel free to disagree and enjoy the day!
Double Naught Spy
New member
It is just you. The CCW holder commited homicide. Most states have laws that pertain to homicides being investigated. And he should have been investigated for his actions. Stories are not always what they appear to be from the start. You have the luxury of know what the story is AFTER all the facts are in and still managed to get some of it wrong. The police and DA do not.
I have read cases of "home invasions" where the homeowner shot and kille done or more "intruders." Turns out, the "intruders" were not home invaders, but people invited in the home for the purpose of a drug transaction. At first glance, people like you would question what is wrong with the world when some poor guy defends his home so valiently from bad guys who invaded it, but that isn't what happened.
See, once again you are approaching the story from after all the facts are in and still getting things wrong. The police and DA don't know who the good poeple are until AFTER they investigate. In this case, the good guy wasn't defending his own property either.
Got it. So by your logic if you get shot, you must have been the person robbing/attacking/raping/assaulting/burglarizing etc. somebody else? Maybe you think the woman who got pistol whipped deserved it because she was doing something wrong? OR, maybe things aren't nearly as simple as you think they are?
The CCW holder is not being charged with any crimes and apparently is cleared of any wrong doing.
Mike Irwin pointed out correctly that in this case, it seems that two (2) crimes were committed by the deceased. First was armed robbery of the woman and the second was ADW - by threatening the "good Samaritan" with a firearm.
It appears that during the robbery the perp display and used a firearm so if the pursuing citizen had already drawn his gun we can see two possible lines of thought there.
Police / Armed Citizen: A prudent move in case the perp uses his firearm instead of surrendering or dropping the stolen property.
Politicians / D.A.'s: A clear indication of the citizen's vigilantism and intent to take the law into his own hands.¹
This is one reason why I will rarely, if ever pursue. A simple difference of viewpoint may be the difference between accolades or felony indictments. But being the kind of person I am, I'd have a hard time simply walking or driving by while someone is getting the short end of the stick. At the very least, we owe it to each other to assist in the immediate aftermath with first aid, calling police and being good witnesses.
¹ Law enforcement begins and ends with the citizenry. If armed citizens won't help enforce the laws when feasible then the laws lose significant effectiveness (as we've seen). Citizens apprehending the criminals happens every day and it improves community safety. Politicians and public officials who discourage citizens from aiding their communities ultimately seek to let crime flourish for their own gain.
It appears that during the robbery the perp display and used a firearm so if the pursuing citizen had already drawn his gun we can see two possible lines of thought there.
Police / Armed Citizen: A prudent move in case the perp uses his firearm instead of surrendering or dropping the stolen property.
Politicians / D.A.'s: A clear indication of the citizen's vigilantism and intent to take the law into his own hands.¹
This is one reason why I will rarely, if ever pursue. A simple difference of viewpoint may be the difference between accolades or felony indictments. But being the kind of person I am, I'd have a hard time simply walking or driving by while someone is getting the short end of the stick. At the very least, we owe it to each other to assist in the immediate aftermath with first aid, calling police and being good witnesses.
¹ Law enforcement begins and ends with the citizenry. If armed citizens won't help enforce the laws when feasible then the laws lose significant effectiveness (as we've seen). Citizens apprehending the criminals happens every day and it improves community safety. Politicians and public officials who discourage citizens from aiding their communities ultimately seek to let crime flourish for their own gain.
Alpha Wolf
New member
Double Naught, first what is with the people like you comment?
You jumped to a lot of assumptions.
I never said the police should not investigate when a shooting occurs. Or that getting shot automatically means you are a bad guy. Really? Comparing a drug deal to a home invasion?
I have had personal experience with home invasion. My 70 year old Aunt and Uncle answered their door and two 20 something blacks one male and one female kicked it in and started beating the crap out of them. My Aunt (A rather large tough lady) knocked her attacker down and got their handgun. Holding the perps until police could arrive.
When Police arrived they set up to shoot my Aunt. My Dad and I were called by my Aunt because the invaders were saying they were going to kill them and the only thing stopping this was the gun and cops were screaming to just drop it in front of the invaders and come out. Hence we had to fight with the police to not shoot my Aunt and Uncle. I guess that is easier than seeing a bloody 70 lady needing help and actually going in. Like your Homicide remark, they were all over the Hostage situation. Yes homicide is only the killing not the reason but it carries the meaning of murder vs self defense.
Once we got the Police to listen they finally went to the door and took every one away in cuff. They finally released my Aunt and Uncle 9 hours later. My Uncle and Aunt both were really beat up and bloody. Only the female invader was bloody. Kind of obvious to me.
I understand police arriving on a scene have no idea who or what they have. And they must take time to figure out what is going etc.. Never said they should not.
My issue is that DAs and LEOs seem to spend time trying to find reasons to arrest you for defending yourself vs going out hunting for bad guys. Even after they know the facts.
I do not support hunting out bad guys and just shooting them on sight.
In this case intervening while the woman was being attacked would have been better if it was possible. Following the bad guys in a car is not a bad idea either. Not sure about asking for the goods from known armed crooks.
You just never know how the LEOs or DA will react to defending yourself and your property. This means all good guys will hesitate to ponder this. Unfortunately this can get you killed when the bad guy does not hesitate to shoot you.
You jumped to a lot of assumptions.
I never said the police should not investigate when a shooting occurs. Or that getting shot automatically means you are a bad guy. Really? Comparing a drug deal to a home invasion?
I have had personal experience with home invasion. My 70 year old Aunt and Uncle answered their door and two 20 something blacks one male and one female kicked it in and started beating the crap out of them. My Aunt (A rather large tough lady) knocked her attacker down and got their handgun. Holding the perps until police could arrive.
When Police arrived they set up to shoot my Aunt. My Dad and I were called by my Aunt because the invaders were saying they were going to kill them and the only thing stopping this was the gun and cops were screaming to just drop it in front of the invaders and come out. Hence we had to fight with the police to not shoot my Aunt and Uncle. I guess that is easier than seeing a bloody 70 lady needing help and actually going in. Like your Homicide remark, they were all over the Hostage situation. Yes homicide is only the killing not the reason but it carries the meaning of murder vs self defense.
Once we got the Police to listen they finally went to the door and took every one away in cuff. They finally released my Aunt and Uncle 9 hours later. My Uncle and Aunt both were really beat up and bloody. Only the female invader was bloody. Kind of obvious to me.
I understand police arriving on a scene have no idea who or what they have. And they must take time to figure out what is going etc.. Never said they should not.
My issue is that DAs and LEOs seem to spend time trying to find reasons to arrest you for defending yourself vs going out hunting for bad guys. Even after they know the facts.
I do not support hunting out bad guys and just shooting them on sight.
In this case intervening while the woman was being attacked would have been better if it was possible. Following the bad guys in a car is not a bad idea either. Not sure about asking for the goods from known armed crooks.
You just never know how the LEOs or DA will react to defending yourself and your property. This means all good guys will hesitate to ponder this. Unfortunately this can get you killed when the bad guy does not hesitate to shoot you.
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
FWIW, no charges were ever filed against the CCW, despite that the prosecutor in the area is fairly liberal in outlook and some pressure from the family. As I recall, the sister of the deceased lamenting his death was later arrested for participation in the robbery and is a suspect in several others as well.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Well Alpha Wolf, this did not happen in this case, did it despite your rant to the contrary? It really is just you.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Done, when we get personal - that's it. The major points have been made about the law and personal philosophy.
We don't need to referee the personal level or rants.
Glenn.
Closed.
We don't need to referee the personal level or rants.
Glenn.
Closed.
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