CCW Practice

J

johnwilliamson062

Moderator
When I received my CCW the instructor gave advice on how to stay out of legal trouble if we ever used it.

One of the things he said was to shoot weekly and to keep a log book of when we shot, how many rounds and scores if we scored them. This was to show we were proficient with our firearms in court. That we were still training and took the responsibility seriously.

Over the weekend I was at the League of Ohio Sportsmen banquet and I mentioned this. Several people were quite adamant that any such records would be a negative in court.

Any opinions?
 
I am a nay-sayer.

First of all, what does showing proficiency prove? All that matters is how you shot during the incident for which the cops became involved.

If you shot poorly during the incident and your shot log shows you shoot well, what does that indicate? Will it do anything to negate the wounding of a bystander by you?

If you shoot well and have the records to prove it, not doubt somebody in court will want to know why you killed your opposition instead of just wounding them...since your records indicate just how good you are.

How does shooting regularly show you take your responsibility seriously? It shows you like to shoot a lot and are anal-retentive, but does not substatiate that you take CCW responsibility seriously.

Even if it could show you take your responsibility seriously, how does that change the circumstances of whatever infraction you committed? By golly, if you are responsible, I can hear the judge or the opposition saying, "...then you really should have known better than to _____, shouldn't you?"
 
For crying out loud, where did this bs come from. Ever been to court regarding shootings????

No court is going to come down on your for taking training, Practicing and keeping records of your practice times and scores.

Thats like saying the court will get you if you are in a traffic accident and they found out you took drivers ed.

Practice, Keep Records, it isnt gonna hurt you in court. If thats the case then why have CCW classes before you get your license.
 
If you shoot well and have the records to prove it, not doubt somebody in court will want to know why you killed your opposition instead of just wounding them...since your records indicate just how good you are.
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NEVER SHOOT TO WOUND! INFACT YOU MIGHT AS WELL PUT THE HANDCUFFS ON YOURSELF!!!!

If you shoot to wound you obviously werent in fear for your life! If your gonna pull it, youve got to be in fear for your life.

Records only prove one thing, your proficient in tayloring your skills on the range. When it comes down to using it, you dont attract attention to yourself by flashing around a log. You collect your thoughts, and say I feared for my life, I want my attourney!
 
In My First Class

We were told get rid of all the targets you've kept around the house, make sure there are no NRA stickers on our vehicles, throw out gun magazines after reading them instead of using them for referrals, etc. He told us a shooting team would collect all these things and more from our houses and use them in the DA's quest to prove us to be "gun nuts." Agree or disagree, draw your own conclusions.

All I know is it's hard for a reloader, experimenting with new loads not to keep targets for comparison's sake.
 
I'm a nay sayer on this as well. Why muddy the waters when really all that counts is that you were in fear of your life, you told the intruder you were armed and you had no means of escaping the situation.
 
Yeah right, I'm gonna get rid of all my other guns, reloading supplies, collection of shooting books from the likes of Hatcher, Whelan, Sharp, Keith, Page, etc etc. Plus get rid of my shooting trophys, dist. badge, and on and on and on.

I DONT THINK SO.

What you guys are saying is if guns are your hobby, then you dont have the right of self protection.
 
One of the things he said was to shoot weekly and to keep a log book of when we shot, how many rounds and scores if we scored them.
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Absolute, total, nonsense. In fact, in the class that I took for my CCW permit, the instructor collected all the targets in order to make sure that they got destroyed. He may have taken the idea in a different direction, but his point is that you don't want any more information available at a SD shooting trial than is absolutely necessary.

What's really (REALLY) really important is that if you are engaged in a SD shooting, do not (NOT) not, say anything at all (at all) to the police except to say that you will talk to your lawyer first.

The Right to Remain Silent was not put into place to protect guilty people, it was put into place to protect innocent people.

The target practice stuff is just plain silly.

On the other hand, I would highly recommend taking an occasional SD shooting course (not just target practice) in order to be able to increase your chances of winning in a fight that you must win.
 
And in some states, you don't even have to retreat.
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That is correct. I should have thrown in "Where required by law, I was unable to retreat."

Thankfully some states have adapted the Castle Doctrine.
 
NEVER SHOOT TO WOUND! INFACT YOU MIGHT AS WELL PUT THE HANDCUFFS ON YOURSELF!!!!

If you shoot to wound you obviously werent in fear for your life! If your gonna pull it, youve got to be in fear for your life.

Records only prove one thing, your proficient in tayloring your skills on the range. When it comes down to using it, you dont attract attention to yourself by flashing around a log. You collect your thoughts, and say I feared for my life, I want my attourney!
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I wasn't suggesting anyone shoot to wound. With that said, your reply is another one of those weird suggestions that has no legal basis. You can shoot to warn, shoot to stop, shoot to wound, or shoot to kill. The law does not state where you can and cannot shoot people or if how you shoot is supposed to warn, stop, wound, or kill. Your shooting goal does not matter so long as you were in a position where lethal force use was justified under the law. The critical aspect, as reflected by your last line, is to NOT SPEAK TO THE COPS.
 
I think that if you think keeping records is a good thing,for what ever reason,then do it.If and when you're involved in a shooting,inform your attorney of the existence of these records,and let the attorney decide if it's a good idea to present this as part of your case...
 
Not important to me. As a retired Marine with a whole slew of expert marksmanship badges hanging to my belly button for both rifle and pistol. I'm pretty much screwed. The prosecutor or the slob's attourney will paint me as a Government trained killer with no remorse, compassion or sanity and that I am a danger to God-fearing citizens everywhere. I'll be portrayed as a wolf stalking the streets preying on lambs instead of the sheep dog I am.

I'm trained to kill with my hands therefore, I have always tried extra hard (and successfully) to avoid situations that might turn physical. If I went hand to hand in an alley or bar, I may win the fight but, I'll lose in court. I did use it once though by telling the other guy I was trained to kill with my hands. He backed off and disappeared.
 
Doesn't seem necessary to keep logs/records of your shooting practice unless you want to.

I also don't think that you should practice weekly BECAUSE of what the courts might come to think if you have to defend yourself with lethal force. You should practice because it will make you better able to defend yourself properly if the need should arise.

You just need to trust yourself that your firearm is a last resort, and that the situation you might come to use it in is warranted. If it is, the court will likely see it as such. Of course, if you plug someone in the back as they're running away, I could see 3 years worth of paper targets with thousands of holes in them as a negative thing.
 
I see no advantage or disadvantage. Can anyone on either side of the argument point you to an actual example to justify their opinion?
 
Peetzakilla gets it right. Much to do about nothing. Records won't help or hurt per se, particularly in the criminal trial. they might come up in a civil case, but I think it is a wash. Like so many other things, there is good and bad for each side of the issue. Points can be made by showing you practice regularly, points can be made by showing you didn't practice regularly, and so on.
 
IF you are involved in a self-defense shooting that is legal and proper, it is less and less likely that a DA will look for excuses to prosecute. Only if there might be some question as to who started/escalated the fight or the attitude of the shooter insults the DA's senses might you have to worry.

Some of the advice given can be heeded with a bit of common sense. If you have B27 targets hanging in your reloading area or bedroom with tight groups COM and the head and have scrawled "Make my day" or "No prisoners!" on them, you might expect those to be used to impugn your character.

So might the DA show a jury a collection of "military training manuals" from your home. The titles of which may alarm the average soccer mom or accountant. A confederate battle flag ("rebel flag") on your wall might be used in a photograph to make an unstated implication.

For these kinds of things, your attorney will either have to explain them away or present evidence that counters what the prosecution is doing.

On the other hand, if you have no log there is no chance for the D.A. to suggest or imply that you could have "wounded" the person if you chose to do so. Nor is there evidence you "trained frequently, hoping to one day to face the ultimate test of killing another person".
 
I cant see any DISAVANTAGE, except to say with my 642, I do keep a log of what I load, and how they work, but as to complete records I'm just not that good of a pistol shooter to justify it.

HOWEVER: As to advantages, It target shooting its critical, both pistol and rifle. I'll deal with rifle since I have more experience (though I have shot and coached some NG Pistol Teams).

You use score or data books, to record everything, weather, ammo, gun, range etc etc. You record any change you make and the results of that change. On my rifle teams I'd raise holy heck with anyone of my shooters that didnt keep Accurate Data book. Extremely important. It also records the scores so you can see when the barrels start to go. Or if you zero changes, (and they will change).

Ever see a DIECENT sniper, military or LE, that dosnt keep a data book???

Any decated shooter will keep a data book. As a LE firearms instructor and CS Investigator, I been to court several times in dealing with firearms, Never ever heard of anyone catching flack because he kept data books or records of his shooting.

It would amount to the same thing as an attorney, during an traffic accident trail raising hell with someone who kept maintance records of his vehicle
 
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