CCW not welcome in Disney Springs

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FACT - The State of Florida does not recognize such signage and bestows no special legal rights upon private owners or give them any special ability to restrict CCL holders entering their property.
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That's correct. It isn't a special right, just the ordinary right of an owner.

There are exceptions to the general right of an owner to exclude people from a property or his business. If I decide I'd like to exclude black people from my hotel in Atlanta, I don't have that right because there is an exception to the general owners right, and that exception has a basis in legislation and case law.

However, if I want to exclude people who part their hair in the middle or wear brown shoes with blue suits, I can deem a trespasser members of the public who make that choice. I don't even need a sign. I can just tell a fellow in a blue suit that unless he removes his brown shoes, I want him to leave. If he refuses, then I have remedies for the trespass.

In the Disney scenario above, their exclusion doesn't face the kind of legal prohibitions that the idea of an all white hotel does, so the closer analog is the brown shoe exclusion.

That doesn't make the Disney choice fair or wise, just permissible.
 
How is it you demand property owners respect your rights but you refuse to respect theirs???
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Emotional sensationalism and not at all what was said or being discussed. Please turn that high powered perception upon the written word of my post to understand that it is simply an illustration of the point:

The argument is whether or not the State of Florida bestows special rights upon private owners who place "No Guns Allowed" signs on their property.

FACT - The State of Florida does not recognize such signage and bestows no special legal rights upon private owners or give them any special ability to restrict CCL holders entering their property.
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A property owner has no special rights simply because he posted a "No Firearms allowed" sign and then caught a lawful CCL holder exercising his lawful CCL privileges.
 
davidsog said:
FACT - The State of Florida does not recognize such signage and bestows no special legal rights upon private owners or give them any special ability to restrict CCL holders entering their property.
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Once again, I respectfully submit that you are misstating the situation when you say that the state of Florida "does not recognize" such signage. (And, in fact, in this case there was no signage involved, anyway.)

As I explained above, the situation is that in Florida the signs do not have force of law such that ignoring a sign and carrying on posted property is automatically a criminal offense and subject to instant arrest. The fact that the signs do not have force of law in that context does not invalidate a property owner's right to control what happens on his/her/its property. If you carry where the owner has notified you that firearms are not allowed, then by definition you do not have the owner's permission to be there, and you are trespassing.

Trespass is unlawful, and you can be asked to leave the property. If you refuse to leave after being asked to do so, it becomes criminal trespass and you can be arrested. The charge will be criminal trespass rather than carrying a gun, but it's still an arrest, and it's still as a result of your carrying where you have been notified that you are not allowed to carry.

In the case under discussion here, apparently there were no signs, so the first notice smee78 had was when security told him he wasn't allowed to carry. Fair enough. He then had notice. His choices then were

  • Leave
  • Surrender the gun temporarily (if offered the option) and stay
  • Refuse to leave and refuse to surrender the gun ... and get arrested for trespass
To reiterate: the state of Florida does recognize the signs. It recognizes them as giving notice to visitors of the owner's policies and desires, and thus as forming the basis for a charge of trespass if you ignore the signs.

davidsog said:
The argument is whether or not the State of Florida bestows special rights upon private owners who place "No Guns Allowed" signs on their property.
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I don't think anyone has argued that the signs convey to property owners any special rights. What the signs do is provide notice, thereby triggering the owner's ordinary right to invoke the law regarding trespass. If you walk past a sign that says "No firearms allowed," you are by definition trespassing. Trespassing is illegal. The state recognizes this, and has codified it in statute.
 
If you carry where the owner has notified you that firearms are not allowed, then by definition you do not have the owner's permission to be there, and you are trespassing.
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The State of Florida does not just charge CCL holders with trespassing out of the blue. The owner can only ask you to leave. If you comply, he has no other legal recourse.

A property owner has no special rights bestowed under the law for restricting CCL holders lawful carry in the State of Florida.

However, if I want to exclude people who part their hair in the middle or wear brown shoes with blue suits, I can deem a trespasser members of the public who make that choice. I don't even need a sign. I can just tell a fellow in a blue suit that unless he removes his brown shoes, I want him to leave. If he refuses, then I have remedies for the trespass.

In the Disney scenario above, their exclusion doesn't face the kind of legal prohibitions that the idea of an all white hotel does, so the closer analog is the brown shoe exclusion.

That doesn't make the Disney choice fair or wise, just permissible.
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Excellent illustration.
 
Are we required to answer honestly whenever security asks if we are armed? They are not law enforcement officers.
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In the case of Disney, they are LEs. I don't remember if they are deputized by City or County department though - or if they fall under some other type of organization.
 
Don't answer the question dishonestly.

The dog's alert is not probable cause that a crime was committed and cannot be used to search your person.

The correct response to the question if you're carrying, "I don't answer questions."

You can still be asked to leave private property, but your firearm never has to become the issue. Either the property owner wants you shopping there or they don't. They can make up their mind.
 
Are we required to answer honestly whenever security asks if we are armed? They are not law enforcement officers.
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No, there is no requirement of notify an officer or anyone else.

To be clear, Florida Statute 790.06 - “License to carry concealed weapon or
firearm” states that an individual has no “duty to inform” a law enforcement officer that
they are carrying a concealed weapon or firearm (some states do, however). In no way
should a CFL holder feel that they are viewed as a criminal by the police. Officers are
aware of the stringent steps CFL holders must go through when issued a license.
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https://www.cityofrockledge.org/DocumentCenter/View/2451/Law-Enforcement-Interactions?bidId=
 
In the case of Disney, they are LEs. I don't remember if they are deputized by City or County department though - or if they fall under some other type of organization.
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There is no requirement for you to inform them but If they are LEO's and they ask...you are required to present your photo ID and CCL. Personally, I always inform them and in the State of Florida I have NEVER had a LEO act unprofessionally or do anything outside of thanking me for letting him know I was carrying.

My personal feeling are this isn't some citizen's protest. As CCL's we must responsibility and safely exercise our privileges as members of the community. I do not ignore "No Firearms Signs" lightly and each decision is based upon the totality of the circumstances. Often times, I simply go someplace else if I can. I do not run out and violate others wishes simply because I can.

I also think about how things will look in the aftermath should I be forced to use my weapon in defense in the preservation of human life every time I step out of the house with a gun.
 
Smee78,

Unlike many folks here, I totally support you being pissed off. I don’t know you, what you look like, what you were doing, etc....all that said, I hate company’s that decide that their private property rights supersede my 2A rights. I mean WTHeck, I’m a good calm person who could help their overall security level carrying my gun that I have many hours training and safe handling with...

Then they embarrass you/me in front of family and the public at large....and I’m still on the hook to pay for my room, prepaid tickets, vacation that I’ve prepaid and travelled for.

I’m sure they have a weapons policy, but c’mon we all know trouble makers leave their gun in the car until they are coming in to shoot/rob someone.

Now, is that overweight gamer and his gun sniffing poodle going stop you if you are coming in the mall to rob/beat/kill somebody? No, those types will likely kick the poodle and punch the gamer guard in his game boy, if you know what I’m saying!


All that said, we live under golden rule most of the time nowadays ....to refresh your memory, that is, ”He who has the gold makes the rules,”

Is there a gun friendly Disney, Cedar Point, etc?
 
It's not so much that their private property rights supersede 2A rights, but that their property rights over a public accommodation supersede them.

A public accommodation like a restaurant, theater, or shopping mall is different than private property like your bedroom or living room. Right now, there is no legal distinction for the purpose of firearms possession, but there is for other things.

As more and more public accommodations become privately-owned, it's going to be an increasingly onerous issue. We can forsee that at some point, a corporation like Google, Tesla, or Uber is going to own most transport. Once "self-driving" cars are ready for prime-time, people are going to ditch car ownership, parking, insurance and taxes in droves. But Google could choose a "no weapons" policy and could easily install sensors on their cars that would disable them if an occupant were armed.

There is also some question about whether Facebook, Twitter, or Youtube are private properties or public forums with respect to speech rights.

For the time being, the rights of property owners over these properties prevail. Will it stay that way? I don't know. Property rights are very important and there are serious consequences to superceding them and the outcome may not be good at all. I only wish our society would stop choosing to use everything from communication to transportation to entertainment owned by corporations. People are giving away their rights. They don't own or control their phone, their email, they're subjected in the marketplace, and soon in the car, and even in their homes they're subject to the extrajudicial rules of HOA's. "Heller" prevents HOA's from restricting firearms in homes but HOA's can ban guns from common areas and individual homeowners in the association's neighborhood can do almost nothing about it.
 
I hate company’s that decide that their private property rights supersede my 2A rights.
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OK, now turn it around. And, don't just restrict it to guns, look at all our Constitutional rights. And, remember that the 2nd amendment, and all the others rights in the Constitution are a contract between you, or I (we, the people) and the Federal Government. NOT between you and I as private citizens.

I do not have a First Amendment right to free speech on YOUR property. Nor a 2nd Amendment right to carry a gun, on YOUR property. If you, the property owner allow it, fine. If you don't, that's your right as the property owner.

IF your boss has a "no politics in the workplace" rule, and you go spouting your support of candidate X at work, the First Amendment prevents the Government from stopping you. And ONLY the Government. Nothing stops your boss from firing you, and ejecting you from the premises. That is their right.


I mean WTHeck, I’m a good calm person who could help their overall security level carrying my gun that I have many hours training and safe handling with...
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Sure you are. So you say...They don't know that. They can't and won't take your word for it, either. People have been known to lie, you know...:eek:

And this is the real reason we get upset, isn't it? We KNOW we are the good guys, and we (often unrealistically) expect that as good guys, our word that we are trustworthy and safe should be taken at face value. When that doesn't happen, we get upset about it.

Isn't that what happened with the OP?
 
I do not have a First Amendment right to free speech on YOUR property. Nor a 2nd Amendment right to carry a gun, on YOUR property. If you, the property owner allow it, fine. If you don't, that's your right as the property owner.
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And in none of these cases can a property owner just have your 4th amendment rights trampled upon by being outright arrested.

The property owner must ask you to leave in a legal manner of notification and you must comply...all within the "reasonable man" standard specific to the reasonableness of your state.

Trespass Specifics
Intent. In order to commit criminal trespass, you must either go onto property knowing that you don’t have permission to be there or remain on property after learning that you don’t have the right to be there. Accidentally wandering onto someone’s land while hiking, for example, typically isn’t considered criminal trespass.

Warning or notice required. In many states, laws require there be a warning that you aren’t allowed to be on property before you can be convicted for trespassing on the property. While a property owner can directly tell a trespasser to leave the premises, in many states, there are other ways to provide notice that property is off limits. For example, a sign saying “No Trespassing,” a fence around the property, or a locked door to the property will do the job.

Specific acts considered trespass. Many states have a general description of trespassing and also outline specific acts that count as the crime. Hunting on someone else’s land, cutting down trees without permission, or even tampering with vending machines can be a form of criminal trespass. Entering or remaining in a motor vehicle without the owner’s permission is another common form of criminal trespass.
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https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/criminal-trespassing-law.html

This where the State of Florida protects CCL holders over individual property owners:

Warning or notice required............
While a property owner can directly tell a trespasser to leave the premises, in many states, there are other ways to provide notice that property is off limits. For example, a sign saying “No Trespassing,” a fence around the property, or a locked door to the property will do the job.
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Your "No Firearms Allowed" sign means nothing in Florida and you MUST directly tell the CCL holder to leave.
 
OK, now turn it around. And, don't just restrict it to guns, look at all our Constitutional rights. And, remember that the 2nd amendment, and all the others rights in the Constitution are a contract between you, or I (we, the people) and the Federal Government. NOT between you and I as private citizens.

I do not have a First Amendment right to free speech on YOUR property. Nor a 2nd Amendment right to carry a gun, on YOUR property. If you, the property owner allow it, fine. If you don't, that's your right as the property owner.
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Let's say you got caught at Disney with a t-shirt that depicted Mickey Mouse engaged in sex with Daffy Duck. I'm pretty sure you'd get kicked out.
 
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