CCW holder making threats.

It's a fine line. You don't want to wait until he turns up shooting to take action, but you also don't want to screw the guy over too hard if the allegations are false.

I know when I had a similar (though obviously less extreme) situation, I just had the police go talk to the guy. I had heard that my now wife/then girlfriend's ex had been talking tough about hurting me and/or her, and I knew he had been hanging around the house from time to time. I asked him about it, he denied both. So I simply called the local police, they went and let him know such things were not acceptable, put my complaint into a police report, and that was that.

Obviously there was never enough evidence to charge him with anything. But I think having an officer show up and talk to him made him realize just how serious such things are. He was also pretty smart, so I'm guessing he realized that that police report might well be used as evidence later if the behavior continued...that basically at this point a paper trail was being built that could ultimately lead to him being arrested. And all this was managed without escalating things.

Never saw the guy around the house again, and never heard of any more threats.

So the question is whether a "preliminary" step like this would actually set the guy straight, or just send him over the edge and make things worse.

Though see what you can do to substantiate the threats. If they're real, don't hesitate with the restraining order. Maybe having his guns taken away will teach him that threatening people with them is not acceptable. Let him get a lawyer and try to get it sorted out.
 
Remove someone’s rights based on unsubstantiated, undocumented fear by a 3rd party, what a liberal moment we're having.

kenny b
Click to expand...

Allowing someone to make threats (all threats passed on by 3rd parties aren't false threats) without taking some affirmative, legal action...what a stupid moment we're having.

FWIW, anybody who thinks that getting a restraining order or depriving someone of his or her firearms license will disarm that person is guilty of pretty shallow thinking.
 
(all threats passed on by 3rd parties aren't false threats)
Click to expand...

No, and not all are real threats either.

FWIW, anybody who thinks that getting a restraining order or depriving someone of his or her firearms license will disarm that person is guilty of pretty shallow thinking.
Click to expand...

I'm confused, If by pulling my licenses, taking my firearms, and forbiding me to own a firearm is not disarming me, why are we even here on the firingline forums.

but then, if you ment it was shallow thinking because it won't/can't be done your living in a shoe box because it's done all the time in parts of NYS.

kenny b
 
Last edited:
Remove someone’s rights based on unsubstantiated, undocumented fear by a 3rd party, what a liberal moment we're having.
Click to expand...

Pretty sarcastic remarks about a situation that is alarming at least.:(
I think I see what “kennybs plbg” is getting at…HOWEVER this mans record of domestic violence changes EVERTHING! He has proven to be an unstable & dangerous individual. No one is saying we simply remove his rights. We just report the threat & the authorities will decide about his rights.

By the way, if you re-read the original question, the fear is NOT by a 3rd party. This man is threatening not just the sister, but “billydiesel” himself. That makes him 1st party to the threat.

To say that these threats are “unsubstantiated & undocumented” is ridiculous! They have been mentally documented by all who heard them.

If I make a threat to the president’s life, IT DOES NOT have to be to him DIRECTLY, or in written form to be a documented and prosecutable threat. If somebody, ANYBODY (being the 3rd party), is willing to turn my threat in to the proper authorities, another “3rd PARTY”, the secret service, is going be knocking on my door very soon.:eek: They will not just immediately lock me up or take all my guns away. They will investigate the validity of the threat. The results of their investigation will determine what, if any action they take.

The proper course of action, as already stated by others is to go to the local police department in person, tell them the situation, and follow their advice. They will investigate the validity of the threat. The results of their investigation will determine what, if any action they take. They may want to talk to these other ‘grapes’, but let THEM do that.
You are not reporting this because he is a CCW holder. You are reporting because a threat to anyone’s life is a crime & given his track record of instability & violence, this is particularly serious.
 
If anyone threatened my life (doesn't matter if they own a gun or not) I wouldn't feel sorry at all for them losing their rights, I would still file a restraining order. Now at this point the OP hasn't made it clear if he knows for sure if the person has actually stated about threatening his life or making threats but we do know this his sister is a witness. At this point if what is said is true, then something needs to be done.
 
Fact is, there ARE nuts out there. Do YOU go around threatening to shoot people? Not only do I not do that, but I maintain a VERY WIDE margin in refraining from doing it. It is what makes me a non-criminal and responsible gun owner.

So when someone is making threats, in my book they have crossed a very wide line in the sand, and it is a serious matter.

If you KNOW the guy, and you KNOW already he isn't serious, and that perhaps the 3rd parties might think he's serious, then maybe you should call him and see what's wrong. But your sister's estranged ex doesn't sound like he fits in that category to me. Ignoring his threats and pretending they are bluff is a good way to get your sister and maybe you seriously injured or killed.

I always issue a disclaimer when I talk legal. I'm not an attorney.

But here there's no disclaimer. I AM an expert. An unwilling one, but an expert nonetheless. I have been there, done that, got the t-shirt and the coffee cup. I've had property damaged, friends followed and threatened, eggs thrown, and even an undeserved visit from the FBI.

I know 4 assistant prosecutors in Broward County on a call-me-anytime basis, the names of 10 BSO deputies, and the faces of 30 additional ones in my area, including two sergeants and a lieutenant. I have acquired two lawyers. Costs have exceeded $10,000, mostly because 5 years ago I blew the threats off. That includes video surveillance, attorney consulting fees (actually, very small), replacing damaged property, and psychiatrist visits when I was unemployed and paying for them myself.

I have a college friend who works for "Lockheed" inside Cheyenne Mountain. He doesn't say what it is exactly that he does. But the Air Force sent him to graduate school. He's my advisor when it comes to things like threats. I was told never to ignore a threat by this guy. Initially I disregarded his advice, and that was a BIG mistake.

Threats by nuts who think they've been done wrong can get WAY out of hand. Treat them judiciously.
 
He is the ex of my sister, and he turned out to be abusive, so she left him.
Click to expand...

To some people leaving the toilet seat up is abusive, or calling an idiot an idiot is abusive.

I stated in my first post to inform the Police of the situation ASAP, but I would like some facts before I ruined someone's life.

kenny b
 
To some people leaving the toilet seat up is abusive, or calling an idiot an idiot is abusive
Click to expand...

ABSOLUTELY REDICULOUS! This is OBVIOUSLY not what we are talking about.

Are we thinking before we post? :confused: Just wandering.
:D
 
Whether it's a toilet seat up or a black eye.

Somebody tells me they don't want to see me again, and I am GONE. Threatening someone over it would seem to display a desperation that I would be embarrassed to admit to having.

What the hell is wrong with people?

If the sister cost the ex some money and he's mad over it, there's always small claims court.

Otherwise, move on.
 
Are we thinking before we post? Just wandering.
Click to expand...

Are we reading before we post? I'm beginning to wander also!

Hearsay by a third or forth party! Never even so much as called him to see if there was or is a problem. He is/was his brother in law for how many years.

Never indicated Physical Abuse! Just abuse, thats pretty vauge.

Maybe the guys a loser because he can't get it up, thats abusive or maybe it's all on her end and he's a great guy. We don't know anything but everybodys willing to hang this guy and take away his rights over fear of what he may not even said.

Just sounds pretty Bradyish to me. Assuming he's guilty, taking his guns, possibly ruining his life without even making a phone call first.

If the original post indicated he had a past of being physically abusive, or even was a SOB I may feel different.

kenny b
 
Billy, I feel for you brother, here you are doing the honorable thing taken care of your sister with some jerk running his mouth. Stay cool and alert, both being equally important. Keep in mind you do not have to respond to this guys threats. In my expierences if a guy really wants some of you, you would have already faced him. Bottom line is don't let him dictate your emotions and get you in trouble. From the sounds of it though you already know that.
On the other hand. You could methodically set his butt up and video it.
 
he turned out to be abusive
Click to expand...

billydiesel: Can we have clarification on the “abuse?” Does this mean physically abusive or was he just impotent as “kennybs plbg” suggests?

Thanks for helping us understand.
 
At a glance, the vast majority of the responses have been to document the facts and to involve the authorities, one way or another.

While the term "abusive" might mean many things to many people, I'll point out that physical abuse is not the sole form of abuse. I've seen some pretty disgusting forms of verbal/mental abuse go on as well.

But people don't usually leave relationships over the other person not squeezing the toothpaste tube from the bottom and calling it abuse.

Nor do people ask advice about handling an ex if the "abuse" was confined to calling their spouse ugly, fat, lazy, etc. or other forms of verbal or mental abuse.

If 3rd parties are claiming the ex is running off at the mouth in a threatening manner, then if they are willing to put that in writing, they can be believed. Else it's just people stirring the pot.

If his abuse was to bounce the sister off the wall a few times then obviously he poses a potential and credible threat. I'm unclear if this is a divorce situation or bf/gf situation, but if there is a history of physical abuse coupled with credible theats a restraining order is a minimum step.
 
What *specifically* were the threats that he made? What EXACT words were used?

The answer is, like all threats, report them to the police each and every time, to create a paper trail.

And arm yourself with your wits and weapons, of course.
 
Sorry about the long pause to reply, computer problems. Yes, there were definate threats. they were not to a third party, but to many third parties.

Some the threats were he would "beat her like a man" and "shoot anyone who tries to stop me"
"I always finish what I start"

He was physically abusive to her, and has been to their kids also. Even more so to the kids. when they first came here their oldest son was up late one night and he said he could not sleep because he was afraid his dad was in the woods outside.

The bad news is, they have been talking the last couple of days and she might go back to him. whatever.

thanks for the advice anyway guys. I don't like the situation, but what can you do.
thanks anyway
Billydiesel
 
Some the threats were he would "beat her like a man" and "shoot anyone who tries to stop me"
"I always finish what I start"
Click to expand...

These are police-calling level threats. So she's getting back together with him. Would you rather have a future in which he hurts her and there's no record of any previous threats, or in which he doesn't hurt her but there are some records just in case?

Report what you have heard. If the police want to call him and "have a talk with him" do not allow it. Just record the facts and be done. It's extremely unlikely anything else will be done, and that's fine for the time being.

If the police are uncooperative, and a sergeant can't correct that, then contact the OAG (Office of the Attorney General). Lynn Henry [Lynn_Henry@oag.state.fl.us] or Lynn Dorey [Lynn_Dorey@oag.state.fl.us] can't do anything directly but generally have pointed me in the right direction for such problems.

The thing to ask yourself when deciding if it's worth calling the police to make a record is: Do you, yourself, run around specifically threatening people with bodily injury when you are mad? If not, why not? Hint: Look in the Florida Statutes.

Hope it all works out and you never have to reference that police report.
 
Restraining orders have their place but can also often escalate a situation. You should confer with a professional who has dealt with harrasment and threats. The police follow a written "apply to all" procedure that can often escalate a stalker/harrasment situation. They mean well but they have a procedure based on a city and department that needs to cover its "liability." They may, and probably are, a good choice of where to go but it is worth checking out other options.

All those who have jumped on the restraining order bandwagon should do a little analysis. If instituted he will probably loose his ccw BUT does anyone think that if he actually means to harm someone the restraining order or the loss of a ccw would do anything but incite him further? Be honest now...

check out https://www.gavindebecker.com/home.cfm

I have read his book and while he has a definite anti bent he does know a thing or two about threat assesment and handling situations such as you mentioned. They work with private citizens and are worth looking into. I would if I had a similar problem. They know more of the psychology of such individuals than we do here and may be able to guide you through this better (almost certainly better than anyone on a web forum).

EDIT: They also have extensive experience with batterred spouses. CALL THEM.
 
+1 on the restraining order. CCW are held to a higher standard than those who simply have a licensed firearm. As a CCW holder you should trained on only using firearms as a last resort. It is illegal to threaten somebody with a firearm and he will likely lose his CC permit if these threats are brought to the authorities. Taunting somebody with a firearm is serious business and you should not take it lightly.
 
I've heard everything there is to hear and more about the wisdom of getting a restraining order. I have read The Gift of Fear twice (it was given to me by a group of ex-government agents (I was the electrical engineer in a facial recognition company they started) and I was practically commanded to read it. It was a gift; that company had a Chrismas party each year and had an odd way of deciding who should get what as a present.

I bought an extra copy, gave it to my daughter, and badgered her each week until she confirmed that she had read it.

So yes, Gavin deBecker IS the expert, and is widely recognized as such. Some say he advocates against restraining orders in his book. He does NOT. He does, however, recommend, as you said, getting a threat analysis done before taking any action. Sometimes your local police can do this. Retired Detective Mike Proctor can do this, too, and writes a shorter (Gift of Fear is a long read) manual of dealing with threats and stalking titled How to Stop a Stalker.

The police will nearly uniformly recommend a restraining order. This is because proving that threats are placing you in fear and are intended to do so is not easy, and it's that way on purpose so as to not violate the constitutional rights of the lovlies who threaten people. The granted restraining order proves intent. So all the police need then is to catch a violation of it first hand, or to have the target of the threat state that he directly observed a violation, and that completes the crime of "violation of a protective injunction", and an affidavit of probable cause will be sworn by the officer or deputy.

This makes their decisions much easier to make, so they tell you to get the restraining order.

If you can afford a threat assessment or can get one free from your police department, do that. Otherwise, you'll have to do your best to determine whether you and family are worse off with or without one. Only you can decide.

The benefit of the order is that it proves intent and also starts a paper trail in case things get dicey.

I'll tell you this. A person who is abusive (and threatening to shoot people is in a class apart from leaving the toilet seat up) is unlikely to change. They don't think like normal people, and if you imagine yourself trying to counteract their threats and actions, should they persist, without outside (police) help, you have a major surprise coming.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top