CCW gun recoil objections.

C

ClayInTx

New member
I read many comments about why one should NOT get a small (insert name) for self-defense because it’s too light, the cartridge is too powerful, and the recoil will be awful.

“A day at the range with one of those will leave your hands bleeding and raw!”

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the purpose of a gun to conceal-carry for self-defense these?

Small enough to conceal.
Powerful enough to stop.
Reliable enough to depend upon.
Simple to operate under stress.
Accurate enough for close range.
Not meant for target shooting.
Hoped never to need.

Why should recoil be a concern for a gun you should shoot only enough to see that it meets these requirements and that you are proficient in using it?
 
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Perzacklee. Shooting my PT-145 is not comfortable, but I bought it for power, concealment, and the realization that I won't get it back if I shoot someone. 11, 185gr Golden Sabres in 22 ounces is quite comforting.
 
Why should recoil be a concern for a gun you should shoot only enough to see that it meets these requirements?
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Can you see how most folks are going to take issue with exactly you said here, and specifically the part I underlined?
 
Sevens,

Yes, I understand your comment. See my edit. I thought this was implied but I can see I should have been more specific.

Thanks for noting this.

Clay
 
I suppose in the perfect world in a high adrenaline kind of situation, it won't matter if the handgun recoils like a .500 Mag-- you won't feel it, you won't feel any pain and you'll just go straight to tunnel vision and respond robotically to the threat.

But we know that there is no perfect world. Every threat, every situation is going to be different and ever changing.

Going in to a situation with a handgun that you aren't intimately familiar with is a self imposed handicap. Doesn't mean folks don't still do it, but you aren't going to find too many people that will sign off on any idea that has them carrying a primary defensive handgun that isn't something that they've personally practiced a LOT with.

And most folks aren't going to want to practice a lot with a punishing, hateful little handgun.

With all that said... if you or your neighbor or the next guy want to arm themselves with a 2-inch barreled titanium .454 Casull, then have at it. I'm just happy that prudent citizens are arming themselves. If you don't agree with my theories and I don't agree with yours then it's a good thing we ain't raising children together! :eek: But I'm still happy that you are going armed and hope that more folks do exactly that. :)
 
Excessive recoil is detrimental to quick, accurate follow-up shots. Not an issue if your attacker is considerate enough to fall down after one shot, but it could be a problem if you need two or three or more shots to put the attacker down. Times spent recovering from recoil is time wasted in a fight that's likely only going to last a handful of seconds.
 
Doesn’t this cover followup shots?
...and that you are proficient in using it?
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Proficiency doesn't override the laws of physics. The more recoil the shooter has to manage, the slower they're going to be in making accurate followup shots.
 
Did anyone think of handloading the load down to where it will still function the gun satisfactorily but not be too punishing to the shooter?
 
Back when men were men, we used to classify some carry guns as "carried a lot, but shot a little." I was on the fence here, I think a guy should practice with the tool that might save his life.

But then reality surfaces. It's hard to carry a Desert Eagle in bathing trunks.

Now, if Wisconsin was to enact a CCW provision, I'd carry the pistol pictured below. It's all ready to go. I cannot carry it now, because that would be wrong...

DSC00430.jpg
 
Some guns are just not made to be used for range practice on a regular basis because they are too small, too uncomfortable, or some other disqualifying reason. One must be proficient and shoot it enough to comfortable with its reliability.

Almost all of my guns, which I consider SD guns, are used at the range, in rotation, on a regular basis. There are some exceptions and examples of what I mean:

Glock 36 Definitely not a range gun. When I first got it, I took it to the range and fired enough rounds until I felt comfortable that the gun was reliable. During the course of doing that, the gun got mighty hot. Didn't take a long time to realize this is not for target practice. I satisfied myself with all aspects of the gun and carried it for years as a BUG and now use it as a belly bag gun.

Kimber Ultra CDPII Very easy to shoot. Very controllable and not uncomfortable. However, really not made as a range gun. I shot it until I was comfortable enough to appreciate its reliability and now delegate its duty as my BUG.

Kimber Stainless Pro Carry All around good, accurate, reliable gun. Excellent for the range and very comfortable to conceal. This gun is over 10 years old, has an excess of 50,000 rounds fired and is my EDC gun.

Kimber Custom CDP II Great range gun. Super accurate. Makes me look good. Great carry gun. This is what I would call a full utility gun. It will do whatever you want it to do except make a sandwich and pour a cold beer.
 
The only way to gain and maintain proficiency is to shoot - a lot! If you are so uncomfortable with your carry piece that you shoot it only occasionally, you will never be truly proficient with it.

Also, very powerful cartridges in a very small handgun often are very difficult for many folks to shoot well, no matter how much practice they put in. I will never own a light weight .357 or .38 snubbie, as I truly do not like firing them, nor am I nearly as effective firing them as something larger and heavier. I do have a pair of all stainless steel 3" .357s (S&W 65-3 = about 34oz, and a Ruger Service Six = about 37.5oz) which I can shoot effectively and am comfortably practicing with a lot. Even my .380acp SIG P232 is the all stainless steel version, for the weight, which in turn gives me control and hence effectiveness. I'll tolerate carrying the extra weight in order to have a more effective and controllable weapon, and one I will practice with a lot.
 
Since I put at least 50 rounds through my CCW every range trip, a tiny little gun isn't a good fit for me.

I believe the guns you shoot most should be your defensive guns. If you can't shoot your CCW comfortably, you'll avoid shooting it. Then if you do have to defend yourself it will be with a weapon you're not as familiar with.

I used to carry a Kel-Tec PF-9, I still have scars on my hand from my first range trip with it. (Wore through the skin on the web of my hand)

I realized firing more than a couple of mags wasn't something I enjoyed.

I switched to a CZ PCR, bigger, but I can carry it comfortably, and I can shoot it much more comfortably.
 
The problem is, I think, that if this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayInTx
“A day at the range with one of those will leave your hands bleeding and raw!”

is true, then this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayInTx
... you are proficient in using it?

Never will be. For most people anyway.
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Peetz nailed it. I consider a CCW as a gun that I must be proficent with thus must be able to practice with it as often as I'm able.
 
The only way to gain and maintain proficiency is to shoot - a lot!
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What he said.

I have a couple of J frames, both steel and Airweights. I mostly dont bother with the 60, as its a 357MAG, and I really dont see the point. Its brutal to practice with. Even the Airweights in .38 are a handful with full power loads, and 50 rounds at an outing is all I can put up with anymore, as it does become painful and my hand is usually sore for a couple of days after. Even so, I still put up with it a couple of times a month, just to stay on top of them, and you do have to shoot them to stay on top of them, especially if your shooting more with other types and carrying them.
 
and that you are proficient in using it?
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As several have pointed out, proficiency is not something that is quickly attained and permanently retained. It must be maintained.

I cannot and would not presume to speak for others, but my EDC gets a minimum of 100-200 rounds per month (usually double that). When I owned and carried j-frames (especially scandium .357 j-frames) I would either skip practicing altogether or use a steel j-frame, shoot .38 Spl ammo, or both.

I was only cheating myself. My level of "proficiency" was a joke. I could hit pretty well with the first shot, but my "groups", even at 21', were actually "patterns", and not particularly impressive ones at that.

The guy who bought one of my 340s said he doesn't notice the recoil. I think he's either Superman or a BSer. Guy who bought my 360 carries it, but in all honesty, I don't think he shoots it more than once every six months or so, and I am quite sure he doesn't enjoy it or prolong it any more than necessary. I can't blame him, but I wish he'd carry something he practiced with more frequently. But he's a big boy, it's a free Country (kind of) and he gets to make up his own mind. I sure hope he never needs to use it to protect himself or someone else.

Just my (clearly and admittedly biased) .02...
 
I will attempt to clarify something because as it’s being reposted as a quote it’s appearing to be a comment I would make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayInTx
“A day at the range with one of those will leave your hands bleeding and raw!”

This was meant as one of the objections voiced by those who advise against small guns. It is not a complaint by me.
* * *

It’s not that I disagree that it wouldn’t happen if you did that, but I would not spend a day at the range with it.
 
I dont spend the day there with mine either. I also usually wait until the very end to shoot them too, so I can actually get something accomplished with everything else. If I shoot those J frames first, my mood will have pretty quickly deteriorated and isnt usually good for the rest. :)

I know you'll probably get 50 different answers from 50 people here, but how many rounds do you feel it takes to stay on top of what your shooting to be comfortable with it at realistic ranges? That, and are you practicing "realistically", or just trying to shoot little groups at a bullseye at one distance from a static position.

Trying to get that little hand cannon out and into action while moving and shooting is real different than just standing there concentrating on your sights and trigger squeeze.
 
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