CCW course---what a waste
- Thread starter JimW
- Start date
I took the Florida CCW course here in PA over a month ago. It was given by and EX LEO and although he basically told us the same thing you are complaining about, it is all about whether you feel your life is in danger.
That doesn't mean you can pull your gun out because a guy your size bitch slaps you, and thats exactly how he said it. Or the same guy breaks your nose. Now if he knees you in the chest and breaks a rib? Different story, you could end up with a punctured lung and die. Now you can draw and at least hold him off, try and back off, shout obcenities at the individual, shoot ect.
Take it for what its worth, there is no same answer when envolved in a personal encounter where violence is involved.
You heard all the same stuff I did I am sure.
That doesn't mean you can pull your gun out because a guy your size bitch slaps you, and thats exactly how he said it. Or the same guy breaks your nose. Now if he knees you in the chest and breaks a rib? Different story, you could end up with a punctured lung and die. Now you can draw and at least hold him off, try and back off, shout obcenities at the individual, shoot ect.
Take it for what its worth, there is no same answer when envolved in a personal encounter where violence is involved.
You heard all the same stuff I did I am sure.
Car carry
As far as I know you can carry in a car WITH a CCW and have the gun anywhere. If you do not have one (like me, which will change as soon as I get off my arse) in the glove box is OK. The law says something about (don't quote me on this) not readily accesable, meaning you have to perform an extra action to retrieve it.....like I said don't quote me but I always have one in my glovebox....
As far as I know you can carry in a car WITH a CCW and have the gun anywhere. If you do not have one (like me, which will change as soon as I get off my arse) in the glove box is OK. The law says something about (don't quote me on this) not readily accesable, meaning you have to perform an extra action to retrieve it.....like I said don't quote me but I always have one in my glovebox....
Va
VA does have open carry though so if you don't have a CCW just thrown your gun on the passenger seat for plain view and you're fine. if you stick it in a glove box or console then it is considered concealed so you need a CCW. Once of the reason i got a ccw... i can't remember all these dumb concealed or not laws.
VA does have open carry though so if you don't have a CCW just thrown your gun on the passenger seat for plain view and you're fine. if you stick it in a glove box or console then it is considered concealed so you need a CCW. Once of the reason i got a ccw... i can't remember all these dumb concealed or not laws.
Instead of
Complaining about the class, take away from it what you were there for, A CCW. Issues now have been raised that you must educate yourself about due to the instruction. I believe you bought into a program that didn't set well with you. Upgrade your understanding of the laws and restrictions, attend a Advanced School of your choice and understand that you are now held to a higher standard then most, as a CCW holder. And welcome to the world of CCW.
Complaining about the class, take away from it what you were there for, A CCW. Issues now have been raised that you must educate yourself about due to the instruction. I believe you bought into a program that didn't set well with you. Upgrade your understanding of the laws and restrictions, attend a Advanced School of your choice and understand that you are now held to a higher standard then most, as a CCW holder. And welcome to the world of CCW.
The first thing I would do is become very knowledgable about the times you can use your CCW, from the statues. In FL, my understanding (I could be wrong), is that you can use your weapon to protect yourself or others from serious bodily harm or death with your weapon. Legally, you have to be able to proove the threat (did they approach you with visable weapons, or a large group of large guys that were threatening). The statues do not provide any legal defense from civil liability (wrongfull death, etc.). Also realize that if you pull your gun, your probably going to get sued, because people in this country are really hankering for easy money, even if you were justified in your actions. You can be sued for using your gun to defend yourself in your own home, to defend yourself. Remember the burglar who was trying to break in through a skylight, and fell through, landing on a butchers knife, and sued the home owner, and won. Or the guy who broke in while a family was away, and accidentally got locked in the garage, had to survive on stuff in the garage for a week till the family got home, and sued the homeowners and won? When a lady in Colorado can buy a cup of coffee (which everyone knows is hot), puts it in between her legs, and spills it, burning her legs, and sues McDonalds, and wins millions of dollars, you can be sued for anything, and probably lose.
Legal Disclaimer:
I am not a lawyer, nor do I proclaim to be one. What was stated above is not to be construed as legal advice. Your circumstances might be different. I might be wrong. You are responsible for your actions, and knowing the laws pertaining to where you live and your CCW.
Legal Disclaimer:
I am not a lawyer, nor do I proclaim to be one. What was stated above is not to be construed as legal advice. Your circumstances might be different. I might be wrong. You are responsible for your actions, and knowing the laws pertaining to where you live and your CCW.
Mannlicher
New member
With certain attitude and maturity levels , its probably a good thing if some folks are not given CCW cards.
In Ohio we are allowed to carry on our person in a holster in plain sight or in a locked glove box or in a locked box on the seat ..
The plain sight rule was put in the law thanks to the great ohio state patrol or they would not support the bill HB-12 .....not a real big deal unless you are carrying in a shoulder holster than when others drive by they call 911 and report a nut driving around with a gun ,,,,,,, (I am also a 911 dispatcher ) so we did get a call or two about that .....just my 2c
The plain sight rule was put in the law thanks to the great ohio state patrol or they would not support the bill HB-12 .....not a real big deal unless you are carrying in a shoulder holster than when others drive by they call 911 and report a nut driving around with a gun ,,,,,,, (I am also a 911 dispatcher ) so we did get a call or two about that .....just my 2c
Florida, about to get better
I;ve held a Fl permit for about 7 years now. Sure, there places that you can't carry but not that many. Here if you have a permit you can carry conceled on your person in a car. without a permit you can still carry as long as it's securely inclosed, glove compartment, console, zippered case , or a holster with a strap. I took my training with the Collier Co. Sherrifs Dept. 16 hours class room including one session with their attourney. Also 12 hours on their range with 1 Deputy to 2 students as a coach. Total cost, what you spent on ammo, nothing more.
Now with the new measures in the works to enable you to stand your ground and I think even as important, is the part about not having to worry about losing every thing you own in a civil lawsuit, makes Florida about as good as it's gonna get
I;ve held a Fl permit for about 7 years now. Sure, there places that you can't carry but not that many. Here if you have a permit you can carry conceled on your person in a car. without a permit you can still carry as long as it's securely inclosed, glove compartment, console, zippered case , or a holster with a strap. I took my training with the Collier Co. Sherrifs Dept. 16 hours class room including one session with their attourney. Also 12 hours on their range with 1 Deputy to 2 students as a coach. Total cost, what you spent on ammo, nothing more.
Now with the new measures in the works to enable you to stand your ground and I think even as important, is the part about not having to worry about losing every thing you own in a civil lawsuit, makes Florida about as good as it's gonna get
I agree with others that have said your instructor missed a chance to educate and thats a shame.
I'd suggest you continue your quest to seek information about what Fl state and local laws require and then adapt. If your serious about CCW I'd look into what other classes are available and take a few.
I have an Ohio, Pa and Fl license. I have to collect data from each area I'll be traveling in to have some idea how the local LE "might" react to an out of state guy with a gun.
Bottom line is I won't travel without a loaded gun and I'm willing to jump through those hoops to do so.
Stay safe.
I'd suggest you continue your quest to seek information about what Fl state and local laws require and then adapt. If your serious about CCW I'd look into what other classes are available and take a few.
I have an Ohio, Pa and Fl license. I have to collect data from each area I'll be traveling in to have some idea how the local LE "might" react to an out of state guy with a gun.
Bottom line is I won't travel without a loaded gun and I'm willing to jump through those hoops to do so.
Stay safe.
I agree that you should just consider this a starting point, if you have never had additional training. Definitely budget a class with Jeff Gonzales, Pat Rogers, Paul Howe or one of the many other quality instructors out there. Although it has been years since I trained with Mas Ayoob, he is an excellent source of info. on the legal aspects of the use of deadly force.
Blind Tree Frog
New member
OK I'm not seeing how the course was a waste since apparently you were going to get yourself in trouble before you took it anyhow. The laws don't change about when you can shoot someone just because you have a CCW, so now you at least know when you can and can't. It sounds like before you took the CCW course, you were on a good path to get yourself into a lot of trouble legally when you use your gun unwarrantedly.
Yeah, there are lots of restrictions because people don't trust other people with guns or weapons in general. Some of the restrictions are stupid. Some are not. The restrictions saying that you can't shoot someone until there is an immediate threat don't seem stupid to me at all. Consider I'm jogging down a trail at night and the woman infront of me decides that I'm stalking her and shoots me to keep herself safe just because she's a paranoid little nut. Too many people are not of the right mindset to just be given an open license to kill.
Yeah, there are lots of restrictions because people don't trust other people with guns or weapons in general. Some of the restrictions are stupid. Some are not. The restrictions saying that you can't shoot someone until there is an immediate threat don't seem stupid to me at all. Consider I'm jogging down a trail at night and the woman infront of me decides that I'm stalking her and shoots me to keep herself safe just because she's a paranoid little nut. Too many people are not of the right mindset to just be given an open license to kill.
Part of the problem with defining when you can use deadly force is that it is not enshrined in the written law, but is based on case law.
In Virginia there are justifiable and excusable homicides. They are purely a function of the case law, and being such every actual case is different.
Some of the Commonwealth Attorneys are very anti-gun and have even given orders to arrest anyone involved in a citizen shooting (Arlington). Others have made no statements (or have been more discrete in their statements).
If you think about this, it is very similar to the ‘right of way’ concept in driving. In Virginia there are no laws granting you the right of way, just laws defining when you do not have it.
Homicide is illegal. The case law decides what the exceptions are since only it can consider the totality of event on a case by case basis.
Other states may have more clearly defind laws, but none are very likely to tell you when you can shoot. Most of the other ones I have examined provide a defense, but not permission.
Case law is typically available at larger public libraries in the law section in annual editions with links to previous cases.
In Virginia there are justifiable and excusable homicides. They are purely a function of the case law, and being such every actual case is different.
Some of the Commonwealth Attorneys are very anti-gun and have even given orders to arrest anyone involved in a citizen shooting (Arlington). Others have made no statements (or have been more discrete in their statements).
If you think about this, it is very similar to the ‘right of way’ concept in driving. In Virginia there are no laws granting you the right of way, just laws defining when you do not have it.
Homicide is illegal. The case law decides what the exceptions are since only it can consider the totality of event on a case by case basis.
Other states may have more clearly defind laws, but none are very likely to tell you when you can shoot. Most of the other ones I have examined provide a defense, but not permission.
Case law is typically available at larger public libraries in the law section in annual editions with links to previous cases.
Double Naught Spy
New member
JimW, I can't tell from your posts if you know the difference between a bad CCW course, or being in a state with some fairly restrictive lethal force and gun laws. You complained that the course was a waste, but your complaints were about the laws you didn't like.
abelew said,
Sorry bud, but legal disclaimers don't cover the fact that you provided an interpretation of the law and suggested behaviors relative to the interpretation. So, you are most definitely giving legal advice even if you don't think so. Oh darn, now I have done it too!
abelew said,
Sorry bud, but legal disclaimers don't cover the fact that you provided an interpretation of the law and suggested behaviors relative to the interpretation. So, you are most definitely giving legal advice even if you don't think so. Oh darn, now I have done it too!
In any hypothetical situation you can concieve of a way that you can avoid drawing or firing your sidearm.
The advice to look at case law is good, but this excludes individuals who were not arrested in the first place, or who were no-billed by the Grand Jury. Looking at real-life situations and their outcomes is a sensible approach to take, and some general principles can be derived, such as "always be the first one to call the cops."
The advice to look at case law is good, but this excludes individuals who were not arrested in the first place, or who were no-billed by the Grand Jury. Looking at real-life situations and their outcomes is a sensible approach to take, and some general principles can be derived, such as "always be the first one to call the cops."
Let me clarify for some:
1. The only good thing was that I got my CCW
2. I didn't learn anything that couldn't have been covered in 10 minutes
3. There are NO scenarios outside the home where I'm justified for pulling my gun UNLESS the perpetrators weapon is already visible
4. As stated before, pepper spray is your only option outside the home for numerous reasons
5. You are definetly restricted as to where you can CCW--no Gov. properties, schools, athletic events, colleges, pool halls, bars, state parks(beaches), resteraunts(bar area), any establishment that puts the sign "no firearms", etc...
6. I will constantly have to transfer my weapon to the trunk daily to have a CCW.
As to the post earlier about a group of people approaching in a threating manner---doesn't matter still can't pull or even tell them I have a weapon UNTIL they pull a weapon(too late then). Give me a scenario and I wil tell you exactly what he said in response. There was a case he told us where a man filling his tank with gas was approached by 3 men and demanded his money---they started beating him up and he ended up shooting (killing) 1 suspect---he's now serving 5 years for not running as 1 scenario or 2 not spraying them with gas instead of pulling his weapon!
Of course you have to have the course to get a CCW, but let me save you alot of time here---shoot anybody you want in the house, don't EVER shoot outside the house(basically), and thus carry pepper spray to defend yourself.
1. The only good thing was that I got my CCW
2. I didn't learn anything that couldn't have been covered in 10 minutes
3. There are NO scenarios outside the home where I'm justified for pulling my gun UNLESS the perpetrators weapon is already visible
4. As stated before, pepper spray is your only option outside the home for numerous reasons
5. You are definetly restricted as to where you can CCW--no Gov. properties, schools, athletic events, colleges, pool halls, bars, state parks(beaches), resteraunts(bar area), any establishment that puts the sign "no firearms", etc...
6. I will constantly have to transfer my weapon to the trunk daily to have a CCW.
As to the post earlier about a group of people approaching in a threating manner---doesn't matter still can't pull or even tell them I have a weapon UNTIL they pull a weapon(too late then). Give me a scenario and I wil tell you exactly what he said in response. There was a case he told us where a man filling his tank with gas was approached by 3 men and demanded his money---they started beating him up and he ended up shooting (killing) 1 suspect---he's now serving 5 years for not running as 1 scenario or 2 not spraying them with gas instead of pulling his weapon!
Of course you have to have the course to get a CCW, but let me save you alot of time here---shoot anybody you want in the house, don't EVER shoot outside the house(basically), and thus carry pepper spray to defend yourself.
Blind Tree Frog
New member
Except, all of those held true before you had your CCW license anyhow, so why are you complaining?
WTF state are you in, and WTH kind of pissant incompotent lawyer did that gas station guy have?
Ever consider relocating to a Free State?
Ever consider relocating to a Free State?