CCW and Work--Don't Ask, Don't Tell?
- Thread starter bamaflier
- Start date
Paul Revere
New member
What ever happened to "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave"? Want to carry a firearm in this free land? Do it. How many law abiding citizens have been arrested, tried, and convicted for peacefully carrying out a Constitutionally guaranteed freedom, not harming anyone in the process?
Just wear baggier clothes if the sight of a bulge in your pants (besides your pecker) gets the attention of your co-workers.
We have a 2nd Amendment that says, the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Enough said.
Just wear baggier clothes if the sight of a bulge in your pants (besides your pecker) gets the attention of your co-workers.
We have a 2nd Amendment that says, the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Enough said.
Jeff Thomas
New member
Dennis, it sounds like TX law is much more complicated in this area, compared to AZ. As a matter of fact, a cynic might say your law is practically designed to 'catch' people carrying in the wrong place.
As a practical matter, in AZ, with the significant exception of federal buildings, there seems to be very little enforcement of the exceptions. Is that the case in TX?
As a practical matter, in AZ, with the significant exception of federal buildings, there seems to be very little enforcement of the exceptions. Is that the case in TX?
Bama, I don't believe I can advise you or anybody on this issue- I'm not worried about who's watching or getting involved in litigation, I just think this is a personal decision that an individual has to make and then accept responsibility for.
I will tell you what advice and whose advice I'd weigh heavily, though.
I don't know how long you've been around guns and gun writings, but I'm sure a lot of folks her will remember the late Skeeter Skelton. IMHO,Skeeter was a good man and a great gunwriter, ex-military and retired LEO. He wrote an article, which I think was one of his last, that concerned gun control (FYI, he was against it
). One of the stories he told was that he was working as a mail carrier (!) somewhere in the Panhandle around Amarillo while he was awaiting appointment to (I think) the Border Patrol Academy. He had made enemies of some desperate characters in this area and received some threats against his life, which he discussed with an old deputy sheriff of his acquaintance. The deputy simply replied "take care of yourself, Skeeter".
Sounds good to me.
I will tell you what advice and whose advice I'd weigh heavily, though.
I don't know how long you've been around guns and gun writings, but I'm sure a lot of folks her will remember the late Skeeter Skelton. IMHO,Skeeter was a good man and a great gunwriter, ex-military and retired LEO. He wrote an article, which I think was one of his last, that concerned gun control (FYI, he was against it
). One of the stories he told was that he was working as a mail carrier (!) somewhere in the Panhandle around Amarillo while he was awaiting appointment to (I think) the Border Patrol Academy. He had made enemies of some desperate characters in this area and received some threats against his life, which he discussed with an old deputy sheriff of his acquaintance. The deputy simply replied "take care of yourself, Skeeter".Sounds good to me.
I'm obviously among the lucky ones here. Although my employer has a no weapons policy, both of my bosses know that both myself and another co-worker carry. We are also in the process of moving our offices into a little less desirable section of town, and now the bosses are going to start carrying too. So in our office of 6, 4 employees will be armed. I feel so safe now.
BTW, since we are buying our new office building my employers are talking about building a 2 lane indoor range in the basement. I have a few questions I'll be posting later about that.
------------------
Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...
BTW, since we are buying our new office building my employers are talking about building a 2 lane indoor range in the basement. I have a few questions I'll be posting later about that.
------------------
Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...
Bamaflier, I read your post, where you listed off all of the violent things that happened in your area, and I thought, dang, that sounds like Birmingham. Then I checked your profile, (I didn't catch the "bama" part of your name.) I lived there for a while, and it is a rough town. Good luck.
spark@onestopknifeshop.com
Wise Guy
Ooooh, strap in, I've got a long one here.
Last year, when I still was in Kentucky, I had a perfect example of this situation happen to me.
At the time I worked for a restaurant and the restaurant had a "bring a weapon and you are fired" policy in effect. Kentucky law backed them up, as it's considered private property, and owners of private property are considered within their rights to restrict people/employees from carrying concealed there.
Well, I didn't like this one bit, and as a CCW holder, was pretty pissed. So, every time I went to work, the USP stayed in the car.
Naturally enough, it didn't do me a lick of good when the restaurant was robbed. I, and 10 other employees were taken hostage by two gunman, one of whom proceeded to single me out, put a gun to my head, and used me to force his way into the office. Upon entry, he pushed me out of the way, and concentrated on the manager, knocking him down (1). He then got the other 2 employees in the office to lay down on the floor (2,3,4), and got the manager to open the safe (5,6). I meanwhile was crouched in the corner, memorizing every detail about the guy, and looking for an opportunity. He told us to all lay down on the floor, (7) and finally noticed I wasn't lying down yet and shoved me prone. He then told us to put our hands behind our backs.
At that time I thought for sure we were going to be executed. He repeatedly put his gun to each of our heads, as if trying to convince himself to do it. He finally grabbed the loot, ripped out all of the phones, and ran out. I immediately hit the panic alarms and after bringing the manager out of lala land, checked on the rest of the employees, who were fine. As it turns out, the manager had a panic button on him the whole time, but couldn't press it because he was wearing it backwards (!)
The criminals had all fled by that time.
The police later caught the guy, and the deposition that I gave really helped convict his sorry ass, especially since I had given so many details about him.
But, what pisses me off to this day is that I had no less than 7 clear opportunities where I could have drawn my firearm from it's holster and shot the gunman without injuring anyone else. I'm talking a clean line of fire, no chance of missing (distance of < 7 feet) and the gunmans firearm was pointed in a safe direction.
Instead, I was disarmed by my then companies policy and at the mercy of the criminals. Yeah, that no weapons policy made it safe at the restaurant: safe for the criminals.
I brought up this situation to everyone from the manager to the owner of the company, and they made no significant changes to the company policy.
I didn't stay long at the restaurant after that, and the next one I worked at had a similar policy. Fortunately, the manager there and I have the same viewpoints and he said "You cannot carry a firearm while you are working here, it's against company policy, I've talked to everyone including the company head of security and president. That being said, off the record, I haven't been without a firearm for the last 15 years....(wink wink, nudge nudge)."
No problem with me there!
So, it's all a matter of what's your life worth to you? If you have a good enough concealment rig, you shouldn't have to worry about it.
I consider myself very lucky to have survived this, and had nightmares for a few months. I was less scared during deployments when I was in the military, that should tell you how much this sucked.
Your company policy may say no, but I'll bet a few wrongful death lawsuits would be a lot more expensive than your being able to actually do something.
Spark
------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com
Last year, when I still was in Kentucky, I had a perfect example of this situation happen to me.
At the time I worked for a restaurant and the restaurant had a "bring a weapon and you are fired" policy in effect. Kentucky law backed them up, as it's considered private property, and owners of private property are considered within their rights to restrict people/employees from carrying concealed there.
Well, I didn't like this one bit, and as a CCW holder, was pretty pissed. So, every time I went to work, the USP stayed in the car.
Naturally enough, it didn't do me a lick of good when the restaurant was robbed. I, and 10 other employees were taken hostage by two gunman, one of whom proceeded to single me out, put a gun to my head, and used me to force his way into the office. Upon entry, he pushed me out of the way, and concentrated on the manager, knocking him down (1). He then got the other 2 employees in the office to lay down on the floor (2,3,4), and got the manager to open the safe (5,6). I meanwhile was crouched in the corner, memorizing every detail about the guy, and looking for an opportunity. He told us to all lay down on the floor, (7) and finally noticed I wasn't lying down yet and shoved me prone. He then told us to put our hands behind our backs.
At that time I thought for sure we were going to be executed. He repeatedly put his gun to each of our heads, as if trying to convince himself to do it. He finally grabbed the loot, ripped out all of the phones, and ran out. I immediately hit the panic alarms and after bringing the manager out of lala land, checked on the rest of the employees, who were fine. As it turns out, the manager had a panic button on him the whole time, but couldn't press it because he was wearing it backwards (!)
The criminals had all fled by that time.
The police later caught the guy, and the deposition that I gave really helped convict his sorry ass, especially since I had given so many details about him.
But, what pisses me off to this day is that I had no less than 7 clear opportunities where I could have drawn my firearm from it's holster and shot the gunman without injuring anyone else. I'm talking a clean line of fire, no chance of missing (distance of < 7 feet) and the gunmans firearm was pointed in a safe direction.
Instead, I was disarmed by my then companies policy and at the mercy of the criminals. Yeah, that no weapons policy made it safe at the restaurant: safe for the criminals.
I brought up this situation to everyone from the manager to the owner of the company, and they made no significant changes to the company policy.
I didn't stay long at the restaurant after that, and the next one I worked at had a similar policy. Fortunately, the manager there and I have the same viewpoints and he said "You cannot carry a firearm while you are working here, it's against company policy, I've talked to everyone including the company head of security and president. That being said, off the record, I haven't been without a firearm for the last 15 years....(wink wink, nudge nudge)."
No problem with me there!
So, it's all a matter of what's your life worth to you? If you have a good enough concealment rig, you shouldn't have to worry about it.
I consider myself very lucky to have survived this, and had nightmares for a few months. I was less scared during deployments when I was in the military, that should tell you how much this sucked.
Your company policy may say no, but I'll bet a few wrongful death lawsuits would be a lot more expensive than your being able to actually do something.
Spark
------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com
Jeff Thomas
New member
Kevin, thank you for that account. This thread has me thinking very hard about my own situation.
Besides the general gun hysteria we're currently witnessing, I think we are also hamstrung by the American Trial Lawyers Association. The tort system in the U.S. is so screwed up that everyone is lawsuit happy and paranoid. So, even in the face of obvious benefit by allowing CCW holders to carry at work, the bozo's are even more worried about granting permission to carry.
I wouldn't be surprised if some company exec's actually hope their best employees carry in spite of a contrary policy. Sort of an 'I don't want to tell you that you can carry, but I sure hope you are if we need you' situation.
Regards from AZ
Besides the general gun hysteria we're currently witnessing, I think we are also hamstrung by the American Trial Lawyers Association. The tort system in the U.S. is so screwed up that everyone is lawsuit happy and paranoid. So, even in the face of obvious benefit by allowing CCW holders to carry at work, the bozo's are even more worried about granting permission to carry.
I wouldn't be surprised if some company exec's actually hope their best employees carry in spite of a contrary policy. Sort of an 'I don't want to tell you that you can carry, but I sure hope you are if we need you' situation.
Regards from AZ
Jeff,
I think the legal wording makes it sound more complicated that it seems.
In practical terms, we can't carry in government offices, schools, racetracks, polling places etc. We can't carry if the establishment has one of two possible "effective notification" signs. That's pretty close. It's a lot easier than it sounds.
I don't believe our CHL law was worded to induce entrapment. Gov. Bush rode this bill to the Governor's office and told our state police (DPS) make it work. DPS understood, and made it work. (Pretty dull stuff, really.)
I like to see everyone get a CHL, but I'm especially happy to see young couples come together to class. They are our future.
I'm also especially happy to see women get a CHL. Every time a woman gets a CHL, ALL women in Texas (including those I love) are a little bit safer - because the muggers, rapists, etc. don't know which women carry.
On the other hand, I feel guilt because I have compromised my Second Amendment RKBA by getting a license (permission) for a Right. But being "right" and in jail won't protect my family as well as "compromising" and carrying. So I simply must cope until enough of us get a bellyfull - if ever.
I will say this. Since I joined TFL, I have become more aware, more proficient, and more militant. So, I'm watching. I'm waiting. I'm preparing.
I think the legal wording makes it sound more complicated that it seems.
In practical terms, we can't carry in government offices, schools, racetracks, polling places etc. We can't carry if the establishment has one of two possible "effective notification" signs. That's pretty close. It's a lot easier than it sounds.
I don't believe our CHL law was worded to induce entrapment. Gov. Bush rode this bill to the Governor's office and told our state police (DPS) make it work. DPS understood, and made it work. (Pretty dull stuff, really.)
I like to see everyone get a CHL, but I'm especially happy to see young couples come together to class. They are our future.
I'm also especially happy to see women get a CHL. Every time a woman gets a CHL, ALL women in Texas (including those I love) are a little bit safer - because the muggers, rapists, etc. don't know which women carry.
On the other hand, I feel guilt because I have compromised my Second Amendment RKBA by getting a license (permission) for a Right. But being "right" and in jail won't protect my family as well as "compromising" and carrying. So I simply must cope until enough of us get a bellyfull - if ever.
I will say this. Since I joined TFL, I have become more aware, more proficient, and more militant. So, I'm watching. I'm waiting. I'm preparing.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
This was a giant argument on the tactics-l
list.
Personally, I oppose any bans on CCW except
when it can be clearly demonstrated that
the carrying of a weapon would be dangerous
in very precise situations. In that case,
the installatoin should provide lock boxes
at the entrance.
A specific situation is for example going to
the doctor where you have to take your
clothes off and wander around the examining
room. I could see someone not wanting an
unattended gun and asking you not to bring
one in or having you lock it up (my preference).
I was rather suprised by the support for
work place bans that were not based on safety
concerns from the tactics boys.
The rationales were this:
PRIVATE PROPETY - screw this - when you
open for business to the public, you
accept all people. I regard the RKBA as
fundamental. You can't ban different
races from your store and nor should you
be able to take away the fundamental right
to protect yourself.
Some doofuses argued that, in fact, you should
have the right to racially and religiously
discriminate on PRIVATE PROPERTY.
Then don't be a business IMHO. I'm a member
of a group that would be discriminated against - so I'm unimpressed.
Second bit of logic was that you made a moral
committment when you keep the job to
abide by the rules of the company. If you
violate them - you are an immoral corrupter of
civilization.
My take on this was that this is a simplistic
view of morality. Business policies are based
not on an ideological view of the gun issue -
I might respect but disagree with that - but
rather that they think they will lose more
money by employee gun actions (going nuts or
nailing an innocent in a robber) than they
will lose paying off suits from your family
when you are dead.
I have heard this argument made by my job's
lawyer when asked about this issue.
Since their stand is not on moral principle
but risk analysis - IMHO - that frees you
from this argument. Make your decision based
on risk analysis. Job vs. realistic threat
analysis.
Finally, some folks say you should go to your boss and ask them to sign blah blah.
This is unrealistic.
Local bosses cannot wave policies.
You will just identify yourself as a gun nut
and given the hysteria on gun issues - you
might become the first fired at a given
opportunity.
Just my thoughts
Glenn
list.
Personally, I oppose any bans on CCW except
when it can be clearly demonstrated that
the carrying of a weapon would be dangerous
in very precise situations. In that case,
the installatoin should provide lock boxes
at the entrance.
A specific situation is for example going to
the doctor where you have to take your
clothes off and wander around the examining
room. I could see someone not wanting an
unattended gun and asking you not to bring
one in or having you lock it up (my preference).
I was rather suprised by the support for
work place bans that were not based on safety
concerns from the tactics boys.
The rationales were this:
PRIVATE PROPETY - screw this - when you
open for business to the public, you
accept all people. I regard the RKBA as
fundamental. You can't ban different
races from your store and nor should you
be able to take away the fundamental right
to protect yourself.
Some doofuses argued that, in fact, you should
have the right to racially and religiously
discriminate on PRIVATE PROPERTY.
Then don't be a business IMHO. I'm a member
of a group that would be discriminated against - so I'm unimpressed.
Second bit of logic was that you made a moral
committment when you keep the job to
abide by the rules of the company. If you
violate them - you are an immoral corrupter of
civilization.
My take on this was that this is a simplistic
view of morality. Business policies are based
not on an ideological view of the gun issue -
I might respect but disagree with that - but
rather that they think they will lose more
money by employee gun actions (going nuts or
nailing an innocent in a robber) than they
will lose paying off suits from your family
when you are dead.
I have heard this argument made by my job's
lawyer when asked about this issue.
Since their stand is not on moral principle
but risk analysis - IMHO - that frees you
from this argument. Make your decision based
on risk analysis. Job vs. realistic threat
analysis.
Finally, some folks say you should go to your boss and ask them to sign blah blah.
This is unrealistic.
Local bosses cannot wave policies.
You will just identify yourself as a gun nut
and given the hysteria on gun issues - you
might become the first fired at a given
opportunity.
Just my thoughts
Glenn
David Wright
New member
Dennis, this comes up a lot in my classes.(O.K. maybe I bring it up)
I teach my private classes at the classroom that is owned by State Rep. Ray Allen and constable Roma Skinner. It's nice to have that kind of back-up from someone who actually wrote some of the CHL laws in Texas.
I'm not an attorney, but, here goes.
In Texas, criminal trespass, in practical terms happens when you have been asked to leave and you won't. Signage is fine, but the real thing gets down to you refusing to leave, especially after the police get there and ask you to leave. I just confirmed(again for the hundreth time) this with a LEO in one of my classes.
Even if the real reason is they don't like your haircut, sure, you can sue and so forth, but why stick around and "escalate" the situation. Remember, here in Texas, after you get your CHL, it is frowned upon if you escalate a situation, because we've had training to de-escalate.;(
As far as workplace concerns, (in Texas)
my last employer before I retired was a Japanese company, and they had signage (the wrong one, I might add) all over the place.
I never carried in the workplace, but the rocket scientists at HR there, thought that their meaning of "premises" extended to their
"public" parking lot. One chucklehead at HR actually thought that he was going to start searching cars in the parking lot. He's gone now.
I was sincerely hoping he would try to search mine. I could always use a few extra $$.
Here in Tejas, there is an implied responsibility that companies have to provide a safe working environment for their employees as well as customers. This is a double edged sword.
As a manager with a major BBQ chain told me, if we openly endorse carrying firearms in our stores, and something goes wrong, we will be sued out of existence. If we prohibit carrying licensed firearms in our store and something goes wrong, we will be sued out of existence. That's when the "don't ask, don't tell" issue starts looking reasonable.
Dennis, you'll love this one. Allegedly, a company in Dallas (The Image Bank, subsidary of Eastman Kodak) has in it's employee handbook that it RESERVES THE RIGHT TO SEARCH YOUR PERSONAL BELONGINGS AS WELL AS YOUR BODY WITHOUT HAVING ANY REASON OR COMPLAINT AGAINST YOU! This is not a government installation, nor are they doing classified or secret work. They sell pictures for T.V. ads and etc. Can you believe this?
Why couldn't I have gotten a job at this place! Let me tell you about a boy named, SUE!!!!!!!
Ha!
P.S. Nothing wrong with a little Samuel Adams either.....
------------------
Devil and the deep blue sea behind me,
Vanish in the air you'll never find me...
I teach my private classes at the classroom that is owned by State Rep. Ray Allen and constable Roma Skinner. It's nice to have that kind of back-up from someone who actually wrote some of the CHL laws in Texas.
I'm not an attorney, but, here goes.
In Texas, criminal trespass, in practical terms happens when you have been asked to leave and you won't. Signage is fine, but the real thing gets down to you refusing to leave, especially after the police get there and ask you to leave. I just confirmed(again for the hundreth time) this with a LEO in one of my classes.
Even if the real reason is they don't like your haircut, sure, you can sue and so forth, but why stick around and "escalate" the situation. Remember, here in Texas, after you get your CHL, it is frowned upon if you escalate a situation, because we've had training to de-escalate.;(
As far as workplace concerns, (in Texas)
my last employer before I retired was a Japanese company, and they had signage (the wrong one, I might add) all over the place.
I never carried in the workplace, but the rocket scientists at HR there, thought that their meaning of "premises" extended to their
"public" parking lot. One chucklehead at HR actually thought that he was going to start searching cars in the parking lot. He's gone now.
I was sincerely hoping he would try to search mine. I could always use a few extra $$.
Here in Tejas, there is an implied responsibility that companies have to provide a safe working environment for their employees as well as customers. This is a double edged sword.
As a manager with a major BBQ chain told me, if we openly endorse carrying firearms in our stores, and something goes wrong, we will be sued out of existence. If we prohibit carrying licensed firearms in our store and something goes wrong, we will be sued out of existence. That's when the "don't ask, don't tell" issue starts looking reasonable.
Dennis, you'll love this one. Allegedly, a company in Dallas (The Image Bank, subsidary of Eastman Kodak) has in it's employee handbook that it RESERVES THE RIGHT TO SEARCH YOUR PERSONAL BELONGINGS AS WELL AS YOUR BODY WITHOUT HAVING ANY REASON OR COMPLAINT AGAINST YOU! This is not a government installation, nor are they doing classified or secret work. They sell pictures for T.V. ads and etc. Can you believe this?
Why couldn't I have gotten a job at this place! Let me tell you about a boy named, SUE!!!!!!!
Ha!
P.S. Nothing wrong with a little Samuel Adams either.....
------------------
Devil and the deep blue sea behind me,
Vanish in the air you'll never find me...
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
CCW at work? Not anymore... It is official policy for no guns even for CCW holders. Violation means termination and possible revocation of the permit.
------------------
"Supreme authority derives from a mandate from the masses. Not from some farsicle aquatic ceremony."
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
------------------
"Supreme authority derives from a mandate from the masses. Not from some farsicle aquatic ceremony."
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
Mike in VA
New member
Well, we've pretty much beat this one to death, starting with "shall not be infringed" and on down. Bottom line:
Life ain't fair!
It a matter of personal judgment, but all I can say is a little dscretion goes a long way. Y'all be careful out there, M2
Life ain't fair!
It a matter of personal judgment, but all I can say is a little dscretion goes a long way. Y'all be careful out there, M2
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
I live in Georgia and work in South Carolina-in an Emergency Department at a very small rural hospital. In Georgia, businesses cannot do the "no firearms allowed" deal. In SC they can. Worse yet, it is illegal to carry in hospitals with a CCW. Possible to not just lose my job- I could lose my nursing license. Our "security" is a 70 year old man with a cane. Our local police try hard but their response time in a tense situation can leave much to be desired.
I've had gun shot wound patients in the place with the group of people who shot them in the lobby looking for a second chance.
I park my car in the MD slots next to the ambulance entrance. Lots of necessary items in the trunk. Just try to maintain a very high level of awareness.
I've had gun shot wound patients in the place with the group of people who shot them in the lobby looking for a second chance.
I park my car in the MD slots next to the ambulance entrance. Lots of necessary items in the trunk. Just try to maintain a very high level of awareness.
In my former life (I teach now.) I was a store director for a large retail warehouse pet supply store, 50,000+ square feet operation. My store was located in a portion Southern California where everyone and grandma hunts and you received a horse instead of a car for your sixteenth birthday. But since this was the Peoples Republic of California I had only one employee who mananged to have a CCW. To compound the problem the work performed by my employees was such that a lot of bending, stooping, jumping on & off forklifts etc. made it impossible to conceal a gun especially from the district manager and V.P. and get themselves (and me) fired whenever they arrived unannounced. My solution was to let it be known amoung the staff that there was nothing in the policies and procedures that prohibited pocket knives as long as they didn't use them as a box cutter. During my second monthly meeting (entire store staff) I showed them examples of pocket knives they could use; an Emerson, a Benchmade, and several Sydercos were presented. They understood clearly. Obviuously I would rather have seen my staff armed with their favorite handgun, and my Benelli in my office, but this was the best I could do under the cicumstances.
P.S. Anyone caught using their tatical folders as a box cutter was written up severely.
P.S. Anyone caught using their tatical folders as a box cutter was written up severely.
Love these discussions of CCL, esp when TX is concerned. Ya'll fellow Texans remember that there are a lot of carry provisions in the state Constitution as well, and that they override the CCL. For example, if you are travelling, signs prohibiting firearms, even properly posted, do not restrict you because the state constitution trumps state law.
I am not proposing getting in someone's face on the subject, just recognizing that in certain circumstances it's something that's nice to know. One that fascinated me was in reference to a weapon being "for defense". Well, duh. But I considered it recently when we had a bit of a local problem in which women were being beaten to death and the police had no clues.
My lady just loves the pretty handbag I bought her some years back, you know, the one with the hidden velcro compartment... Well, she and I discussed the situation, I suggested that under the circumstances at the time it sounded to me like she could use a bit of "for defense", she agreed, and the Sig P230 went back in.
Well, the situation was finally resolved, but some months later I was wondering where her 230 was and then I remembered-OOoops. She'd been carrying EVERYWHERE for several months, including hospitals, bars, you name it. If she'd been stopped and somehow discovered to be carrying, it's nice to know what the rules are. For example, if you're in your car you're headed somewhere to buy ammunition. Then GO there, of course, and buy ammunition!
Whatever, at least in TX, don't say ANYTHING without consulting a lawyer, he knows the rules better than you do. I hold with the idea that no self-respecting LEO is gonna hassle my sweet wife for simply possessing, or even for using it if she needs to. I think most companies are like the one described above, whatever the stated policy is will get you in trouble, so don't ask and don't tell. The idea of concealed is no one can tell anyhow, the rules ain't to catch you and prosecute you, the're a CYA for the agency concerned in case you do something stupid or hurt somebody.
I was carrying for a long time before TX got a CCL, now rarely feel the need any more (different location, etc), and I've known a good number of city, county, and state LEOs and found them all so down-to-earth, good folks that I have a hard time getting real concerned about being prosecuted while remaining the good guy.
After an email conversation on this topic I find that perhaps the tone I intended did not come across adequately, thus a quick (me? ha!) edit/addition. I do not mean to advocate that anyone deliberately test the limits of the CCL or Constitution in Texas either one. Most everything having to do with the law, and especially with the TX Constitution, is subject to interpretation. Taking a nanny-nanny-boo-boo attitude with the owner of a particular establishment or the LEO he summons to handle the "problem" he has with you will ALWAYS be totally nonproductive.
[This message has been edited by Larry P. (edited September 22, 1999).]
I am not proposing getting in someone's face on the subject, just recognizing that in certain circumstances it's something that's nice to know. One that fascinated me was in reference to a weapon being "for defense". Well, duh. But I considered it recently when we had a bit of a local problem in which women were being beaten to death and the police had no clues.
My lady just loves the pretty handbag I bought her some years back, you know, the one with the hidden velcro compartment... Well, she and I discussed the situation, I suggested that under the circumstances at the time it sounded to me like she could use a bit of "for defense", she agreed, and the Sig P230 went back in.
Well, the situation was finally resolved, but some months later I was wondering where her 230 was and then I remembered-OOoops. She'd been carrying EVERYWHERE for several months, including hospitals, bars, you name it. If she'd been stopped and somehow discovered to be carrying, it's nice to know what the rules are. For example, if you're in your car you're headed somewhere to buy ammunition. Then GO there, of course, and buy ammunition!
Whatever, at least in TX, don't say ANYTHING without consulting a lawyer, he knows the rules better than you do. I hold with the idea that no self-respecting LEO is gonna hassle my sweet wife for simply possessing, or even for using it if she needs to. I think most companies are like the one described above, whatever the stated policy is will get you in trouble, so don't ask and don't tell. The idea of concealed is no one can tell anyhow, the rules ain't to catch you and prosecute you, the're a CYA for the agency concerned in case you do something stupid or hurt somebody.
I was carrying for a long time before TX got a CCL, now rarely feel the need any more (different location, etc), and I've known a good number of city, county, and state LEOs and found them all so down-to-earth, good folks that I have a hard time getting real concerned about being prosecuted while remaining the good guy.
After an email conversation on this topic I find that perhaps the tone I intended did not come across adequately, thus a quick (me? ha!) edit/addition. I do not mean to advocate that anyone deliberately test the limits of the CCL or Constitution in Texas either one. Most everything having to do with the law, and especially with the TX Constitution, is subject to interpretation. Taking a nanny-nanny-boo-boo attitude with the owner of a particular establishment or the LEO he summons to handle the "problem" he has with you will ALWAYS be totally nonproductive.
[This message has been edited by Larry P. (edited September 22, 1999).]