CCW and Work--Don't Ask, Don't Tell?
- Thread starter bamaflier
- Start date
For most people, it’s probably more like “judged by one.” The one that has the power to fire you. Not that it really changes the argument.
As far as private employers go, I support any measures that they want to take to control conduct on their property. It’s known as private property rights. I’m not convinced that the RTKBA, or any other civil rights, extend to private property.
Would I carry? Of course not, for that would be against my employers policy, so it would be wrong.
------------------
“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
As far as private employers go, I support any measures that they want to take to control conduct on their property. It’s known as private property rights. I’m not convinced that the RTKBA, or any other civil rights, extend to private property.
Would I carry? Of course not, for that would be against my employers policy, so it would be wrong.
------------------
“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
My employer has a no weapons policy. I don't carry at work because I prefer the condition of employment to the alternative. However...
If I were to suffer grievous bodily injury at the hands of an assailant, I plan to sue the crap out of my employer (a very large organization) under the premise that, by coercing me to go un-armed via the threat of termination, they are implicitly accepting the responisibility of providing for my personal security.
If I were to suffer grievous bodily injury at the hands of an assailant, I plan to sue the crap out of my employer (a very large organization) under the premise that, by coercing me to go un-armed via the threat of termination, they are implicitly accepting the responisibility of providing for my personal security.
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
As someone else suggested on another thread, (and as Chuck B alluded to above) if you are prohibited from carrying on company property by company policy, have a legal document drawn up and present it to your employer to sign. This document would state that since firearms are not allowed on company property the company agrees to protect all employees against any personal harm that may come to them via an unexpected violent attack while on company property.
I don't necessarily agree that this is a viable option, but it is something to think about. Personally I think that a document of this type would probably only be used by your next of kin for some type of wrongful death lawsuit. This pretty much plays against your stated opinion that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
It may, however, get your employer to re-think the "no-carry" policy.
------------------
RKBA!
"A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you." - Ramsay Clark
"Rights are liable to be perverted to wrongs when we are incapable of rightly exercising them." - Sarah Josepha Hale
I don't necessarily agree that this is a viable option, but it is something to think about. Personally I think that a document of this type would probably only be used by your next of kin for some type of wrongful death lawsuit. This pretty much plays against your stated opinion that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
It may, however, get your employer to re-think the "no-carry" policy.
------------------
RKBA!
"A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you." - Ramsay Clark
"Rights are liable to be perverted to wrongs when we are incapable of rightly exercising them." - Sarah Josepha Hale
Well, having neither an employer nor a CCL I probly oughter hesh up, but in the situation described, I believe I would leave the Glock at home and buy a very small gun to carry to work. I'd rather have the .40 if push came to shove, but desiring continued employment I'd rather have a .25 or a .380 than nothing at all, rather have 5 or 6 small bullets than only a target painted on me.
Danger Dave
New member
Umm, my employer has a pretty serious anti-firearms policy. I work in a gov't owned building, so it's illegal for anyone to carry at work. Do they? I don't know, but I think some do...
As to whether I would or do, I won't answer. If I answer "yes", my post could be used against me, since it's a firsthand statement (confession) and if I say "no" it tells the predators we're all helpless here (and, I know it comes as shock, but there's a long list of people who'd like to take a shot at a gov't employee - we've gotten several threats).
------------------
Beginner barbarians probably had the idea that every house they broke into would be full of untouched loot and frightened, unarmed victims. It just doesn't work that way, my friend.
I hope these evil men come to understand our peaceful ways soon - My trigger finger is blistering!
As to whether I would or do, I won't answer. If I answer "yes", my post could be used against me, since it's a firsthand statement (confession) and if I say "no" it tells the predators we're all helpless here (and, I know it comes as shock, but there's a long list of people who'd like to take a shot at a gov't employee - we've gotten several threats).
------------------
Beginner barbarians probably had the idea that every house they broke into would be full of untouched loot and frightened, unarmed victims. It just doesn't work that way, my friend.
I hope these evil men come to understand our peaceful ways soon - My trigger finger is blistering!
This is an ongoing debate at my office. As we just merged (bought us out) with a larger company, policies have changed. Before, we able to keep firearms in our vehicles on company property. If we really wanted to carry in the office, we had to go to the head of security and get permission to do so.
Now, with our new owner, we had to sign a document concerning the new company policy on drug use and contraband. We HAD to sign the document as a condition of employment. Contraband included all the the things it usually would and firearms. No firearms on company property and they may not be carried while on company business.
I went to our human relations person, and stated that I had a problem with it. As several of us have CCW permits, the new policy prevents us from defending ourselves or fellow employees if something happened. Also, as we could no longer have weapons on company property or carry on company business, were they prepared to protect me (us) from the minute I left my house to the instant I got back into it. I started to get an argument that was not what the policy stated, and I said READ IT. The responce then was, "I will take this up with our corporate attorney". No responce now in two monthes.
So, my responce is... Do not ask me any questions.
Now, with our new owner, we had to sign a document concerning the new company policy on drug use and contraband. We HAD to sign the document as a condition of employment. Contraband included all the the things it usually would and firearms. No firearms on company property and they may not be carried while on company business.
I went to our human relations person, and stated that I had a problem with it. As several of us have CCW permits, the new policy prevents us from defending ourselves or fellow employees if something happened. Also, as we could no longer have weapons on company property or carry on company business, were they prepared to protect me (us) from the minute I left my house to the instant I got back into it. I started to get an argument that was not what the policy stated, and I said READ IT. The responce then was, "I will take this up with our corporate attorney". No responce now in two monthes.
So, my responce is... Do not ask me any questions.
I think this is more of a moral issue. "If something is wrong, but it doesn't hurt anyone, is it ok?" Well, I'm not going to push my values around. But there is one thing to consider:
Let's say one day, some crazy guy bursts into your workplace with a gun in a threatening manner. To defend yourself, you produce yours. Even if everything works out, everybody will then know that all this time, you have been breaking the rules. What will happen to you now?
Whatever it is, I think there's doo-doo involved that needs cleaning. My personal take on it is that rather than risking personal loss of career, not to mention your freedom, why not try to get the rules changed first? If successful, this issue wouldn't be an issue anymore. In the meantime, I'm sure there are always other tools to consider that may do just as well and are legal.
$.02
[This message has been edited by SB (edited September 10, 1999).]
Let's say one day, some crazy guy bursts into your workplace with a gun in a threatening manner. To defend yourself, you produce yours. Even if everything works out, everybody will then know that all this time, you have been breaking the rules. What will happen to you now?
Whatever it is, I think there's doo-doo involved that needs cleaning. My personal take on it is that rather than risking personal loss of career, not to mention your freedom, why not try to get the rules changed first? If successful, this issue wouldn't be an issue anymore. In the meantime, I'm sure there are always other tools to consider that may do just as well and are legal.
$.02
[This message has been edited by SB (edited September 10, 1999).]
I would be personally offended if I saved the life of people on my floor by stopping a violent assault and then was rewarded by a lawsuit for carrying on premises....if I carried at work. Some of you may recall, I face a majority of gun haters that think I am a psycho here at work, so I follow the "don't tell" part and pray none of these friggin' brokers or traders goes nuts like the guy in Atlanta. I do not know what policy my employer carries, and I don't want to...like I said, if I carry at work
Concealed carry is prohibited in my workplace by state law. So if I carried there and was caught, I wouldn't just lose my job but would also face losing my carry license and worse. To me, this is too great a risk to justify my carrying--greater, I believe, than the risk of being unarmed in my office building, although probably less than the risk of being unarmed while walking across the parking lot. Anyway, my gun stays in the car, where it's legal.
If the law were changed, I'd certainly carry across the parking lot, then probably lock the gun in a desk drawer.
[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited September 10, 1999).]
If the law were changed, I'd certainly carry across the parking lot, then probably lock the gun in a desk drawer.
[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited September 10, 1999).]
*IF* I was to carry at work (where even the "security" guards are unarmed), I wouldn't be especially worried about losing my job.
Y'see, with the latest reorg, I have a new manager. I went to set up his new laptop at his desk yesterday. Whilst busily working, or at least appearing to do so, I happened to glance away from the monitor for a second.
And saw a magazine (the paper kind), face down. With an ad featuring three arrows in a circle on the back cover.
So, if I ever happened to be carrying and had to plug a psycho, I'm reasonably certain I'd have the boss' backup.
------------------
"Taking a long view of history, we may say that
anyone who lays down his arms deserves whatever he gets."
--Jeff Cooper
Y'see, with the latest reorg, I have a new manager. I went to set up his new laptop at his desk yesterday. Whilst busily working, or at least appearing to do so, I happened to glance away from the monitor for a second.
And saw a magazine (the paper kind), face down. With an ad featuring three arrows in a circle on the back cover.
So, if I ever happened to be carrying and had to plug a psycho, I'm reasonably certain I'd have the boss' backup.
------------------
"Taking a long view of history, we may say that
anyone who lays down his arms deserves whatever he gets."
--Jeff Cooper
Generally speaking, I think that "Don't ask, don't tell" is the best approach. Employers are fooling themselves if they think that a "no guns" policy is going to stop a disgruntled worker from going on a killing spree.
The factors to consider from an employee's point of view are:
1) Odds of getting caught without a gun in a deadly encounter.
2) Odds of getting caught with a gun by the employer.
3) Consequences of getting caught "with" and "without".
4) Respect for the employer's policies (which can be awfully hard to muster in a Dilbertesque workplace
)
If I were working at the Los Alamos national labs in a secured building with armed guards, facing federal charges for breaking the rules, and if I really liked my job there, then I wouldn't carry.
If I were working the graveyard shift at a convenience store, with no security, facing the loss of a minimum wage, easily-replaced job for breaking the rules, then... Hmmm, that's a tough one.
The factors to consider from an employee's point of view are:
1) Odds of getting caught without a gun in a deadly encounter.
2) Odds of getting caught with a gun by the employer.
3) Consequences of getting caught "with" and "without".
4) Respect for the employer's policies (which can be awfully hard to muster in a Dilbertesque workplace
)If I were working at the Los Alamos national labs in a secured building with armed guards, facing federal charges for breaking the rules, and if I really liked my job there, then I wouldn't carry.
If I were working the graveyard shift at a convenience store, with no security, facing the loss of a minimum wage, easily-replaced job for breaking the rules, then... Hmmm, that's a tough one.
I wonder, too, if it's nothing more than a CYA by the companies. If they had no policy and there was a shooting, they'd get sued for not trying to "defuse" the situation by disarming everyone. They probably factored it out that it was cheaper to risk being sued
by your next of kin (disarmed one) than be sued by the half-dozen or so that got shot BECAUSE they didn't have a no-guns-on-premesis policy.
------------------
If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
by your next of kin (disarmed one) than be sued by the half-dozen or so that got shot BECAUSE they didn't have a no-guns-on-premesis policy.
------------------
If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
Jedi Oomodo
New member
First off- Coinneach, welcome back!!!
My answer is "yes, but no".
In TX, trespassing is normally a Class B misdemeanor, but if you are carrying while trespassing it becomes an A. A property owner can at any time and for any reason ask you to leave, and if you don't- you are trespassing. Normally. though, property is either posted "No trespassing" in which case the moment you set foot there, you are doing such, OR it is open for anyone to come in (i.e. stores and business) and you are trespassing only if you fail to leave when asked.
Here is my gripe with TX CCW law- a premises can be posted "no firearms" yet be open to everyone else to come in. If you come into a place so posted while you are carrying, you are guilty of "trespass with a handgun", and the owner/manager/whatever doesn't have to ask you to leave. If he figures out you're carrying, he could just call the police without warning you, and the cops would be taking you to jail. I don't have a problem with someone not wanting me to have a gun in their home or store or whatever. What I do have a problem with is the law allowing a posting that says "No (certain class of people) allowed". Allowing "no guns" signs is the same thing as allowing a "No married people" sign, or a "No people wearing jeans" sign, or a "No blacks" sign. Why is it illegal/immoral to disallow certain classes of people from coming into your premises but not so if it's CHL holders? Fortunately, most businesses here who tried a "no CCW" policy were quickly forced to abandon it by the citizens. Also, just as the law prescribes how a property must be posted "no trespassing", it does so for "no CCW" signs. If their sign does not meet the law's criteria (it also has to be posted conspicuously, like by the entrance) it is null and void.
OK, I was off on a tangent- time to come back. The law allows a "premises" to be posted- but what are premises? It is: the building, yard, roof, or whatever other portion of the property that is not a sidewalk, road/street, or parking lot/garage. Thus, my employer can have a "no firearms" rule but I haven't broken it as long as I leave it in my car, right? Wrong. We have a woefully misworded portion of CHL law which says an employer can have such a rule for his "property"- this includes the parking garage/lot, and everything else- and that I have received due notice if it is in writing in our employee hand book (which it is). My employer does not have to put up a sign if it's in the handbook. Hopefully, our legislators will fix this soon. For the meantime, I cannot have my carry with me here at my desk.
I have a loophole, however. My employer does not own the building we are in- they merely lease several floors of it. Thus, the garage I park in every day is neither their property nor premises. I can leave my P245 in my Ranger so it will be with me on my way there and on the way back home. I am unaware of what the building owner's policy is regarding concealed carry, but it's moot to me, anyway. I am not employed by them, thus they cannot forbid me to have it in my car in their garage. While they may prohibit it on their premises (there is no sign, though), my employer does so anyway.
My point? Uh, not sure I had one, but if I did it would be something like "look at your laws, and company policy for a loophole- then EXPLOIT IT! In the meantime, work to get your employer to change the rules".
Dennis, did I get the laws regarding "premises", "property", and posting right? If I did, do I get a cookie?
------------------
"Is fhe'arr teicheadh math na droch fhuireach"
-Sarabian Oomodo
If it isn't Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
A firearm isn't a weapon until it is used as such.
[This message has been edited by Jedi Oomodo, because the FIRST time he tried to post this, he mistyped his UserName, so that when he hit submit he was told that no such member existed so please-try-again, then when he hit his "back" button to do just that, everything he had spent the last half hour thoughtfully typing up was gone. He has to do it all over again- thus this post is only vaguely like what he originally wanted to say and now he's rambling off on a tangent again which his wife is trying to break him of.
(edited September 10, 1999).]
[This message has been edited AGAIN by Jedi Oomodo, because he saw that Coinneach is back from LOA and felt that he just had to say "hi". He's rambling again.. Someone please stop this madman before he posts again. (edited September 10, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Jedi Oomodo (edited September 10, 1999).]
My answer is "yes, but no".
In TX, trespassing is normally a Class B misdemeanor, but if you are carrying while trespassing it becomes an A. A property owner can at any time and for any reason ask you to leave, and if you don't- you are trespassing. Normally. though, property is either posted "No trespassing" in which case the moment you set foot there, you are doing such, OR it is open for anyone to come in (i.e. stores and business) and you are trespassing only if you fail to leave when asked.
Here is my gripe with TX CCW law- a premises can be posted "no firearms" yet be open to everyone else to come in. If you come into a place so posted while you are carrying, you are guilty of "trespass with a handgun", and the owner/manager/whatever doesn't have to ask you to leave. If he figures out you're carrying, he could just call the police without warning you, and the cops would be taking you to jail. I don't have a problem with someone not wanting me to have a gun in their home or store or whatever. What I do have a problem with is the law allowing a posting that says "No (certain class of people) allowed". Allowing "no guns" signs is the same thing as allowing a "No married people" sign, or a "No people wearing jeans" sign, or a "No blacks" sign. Why is it illegal/immoral to disallow certain classes of people from coming into your premises but not so if it's CHL holders? Fortunately, most businesses here who tried a "no CCW" policy were quickly forced to abandon it by the citizens. Also, just as the law prescribes how a property must be posted "no trespassing", it does so for "no CCW" signs. If their sign does not meet the law's criteria (it also has to be posted conspicuously, like by the entrance) it is null and void.
OK, I was off on a tangent- time to come back. The law allows a "premises" to be posted- but what are premises? It is: the building, yard, roof, or whatever other portion of the property that is not a sidewalk, road/street, or parking lot/garage. Thus, my employer can have a "no firearms" rule but I haven't broken it as long as I leave it in my car, right? Wrong. We have a woefully misworded portion of CHL law which says an employer can have such a rule for his "property"- this includes the parking garage/lot, and everything else- and that I have received due notice if it is in writing in our employee hand book (which it is). My employer does not have to put up a sign if it's in the handbook. Hopefully, our legislators will fix this soon. For the meantime, I cannot have my carry with me here at my desk.
I have a loophole, however. My employer does not own the building we are in- they merely lease several floors of it. Thus, the garage I park in every day is neither their property nor premises. I can leave my P245 in my Ranger so it will be with me on my way there and on the way back home. I am unaware of what the building owner's policy is regarding concealed carry, but it's moot to me, anyway. I am not employed by them, thus they cannot forbid me to have it in my car in their garage. While they may prohibit it on their premises (there is no sign, though), my employer does so anyway.
My point? Uh, not sure I had one, but if I did it would be something like "look at your laws, and company policy for a loophole- then EXPLOIT IT! In the meantime, work to get your employer to change the rules".
Dennis, did I get the laws regarding "premises", "property", and posting right? If I did, do I get a cookie?
------------------
"Is fhe'arr teicheadh math na droch fhuireach"
-Sarabian Oomodo
If it isn't Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
A firearm isn't a weapon until it is used as such.
[This message has been edited by Jedi Oomodo, because the FIRST time he tried to post this, he mistyped his UserName, so that when he hit submit he was told that no such member existed so please-try-again, then when he hit his "back" button to do just that, everything he had spent the last half hour thoughtfully typing up was gone. He has to do it all over again- thus this post is only vaguely like what he originally wanted to say and now he's rambling off on a tangent again which his wife is trying to break him of.
(edited September 10, 1999).][This message has been edited AGAIN by Jedi Oomodo, because he saw that Coinneach is back from LOA and felt that he just had to say "hi". He's rambling again.. Someone please stop this madman before he posts again. (edited September 10, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Jedi Oomodo (edited September 10, 1999).]
Very interesting answers. Thanks for the opinions. Since I put the question out there, I'll tell you my situation...
My primary risk exists between my car and my desk; the secondary risk exists at my desk itself. If it's going to do any good, I must keep it with me at all times. I work in a public, non-governmental but city-owned building (twisted enough for ya?) in an inner-city. We have had employees mugged, at least one stabbed (between workplace and auto), and at least one attempted carjacking of a staff member, as well as other citizens getting mugged and carjacked with a two/three block radius of my building. I personally have been mildly threatened, but nothing I've taken too seriously, as I am not typically assessed as a potential victim; quite the opposite, actually.
I do not know exactly what our policy is, as I didn't carry when I was hired. At that time, I recall signing something about our workplace rules but I don't recall what it contained exactly. Let me just say that this is not a place where a dialog about rules concerning carrying can be safely brought up. By an odd coincidence, we have mostly antis working here. Stirring that pot is really not an option; and, yes, I am currently seeking other employment. If one were found to be carrying here, I am confident the worst that would happen is they would be fired. As someone pointed out, if you're alive, you can always find another job.
One of my few friends in an otherwise politically correct "Roman coliseum" is the head of security, a retired detective. He and his assistant are the only ones armed; the other "security guards" are not. However, the head and asst. are only on hand 50% of the time. Anyway, my friend, who I've been discussing favorite guns, calibers, politics, etc. with for several years now, knows of my "inclinations" but has never asked whether I've got a CHL or whether I carry at all.
In fact, he's made a point of not asking, if you know what I mean ;-)
My primary risk exists between my car and my desk; the secondary risk exists at my desk itself. If it's going to do any good, I must keep it with me at all times. I work in a public, non-governmental but city-owned building (twisted enough for ya?) in an inner-city. We have had employees mugged, at least one stabbed (between workplace and auto), and at least one attempted carjacking of a staff member, as well as other citizens getting mugged and carjacked with a two/three block radius of my building. I personally have been mildly threatened, but nothing I've taken too seriously, as I am not typically assessed as a potential victim; quite the opposite, actually.
I do not know exactly what our policy is, as I didn't carry when I was hired. At that time, I recall signing something about our workplace rules but I don't recall what it contained exactly. Let me just say that this is not a place where a dialog about rules concerning carrying can be safely brought up. By an odd coincidence, we have mostly antis working here. Stirring that pot is really not an option; and, yes, I am currently seeking other employment. If one were found to be carrying here, I am confident the worst that would happen is they would be fired. As someone pointed out, if you're alive, you can always find another job.
One of my few friends in an otherwise politically correct "Roman coliseum" is the head of security, a retired detective. He and his assistant are the only ones armed; the other "security guards" are not. However, the head and asst. are only on hand 50% of the time. Anyway, my friend, who I've been discussing favorite guns, calibers, politics, etc. with for several years now, knows of my "inclinations" but has never asked whether I've got a CHL or whether I carry at all.
In fact, he's made a point of not asking, if you know what I mean ;-)
Jedi,
Generally, a concealed handgun license permits you to carry anywhere it
is not prohibited to do so. Isn’t that cute?
I’ll will take some information as an excerpt from Texas Penal Code
46.035. For the full text, complete meaning, and application of the
law, consult current law or a qualified attorney as the following excerpt
and this entire post are incomplete and may be inadequate for your
needs.
-------
Where are you NOT permitted to carry a concealed handgun as a CHL
holder?
a) You commit an offense if you intentionally fail to conceal the
handgun. It is a defense to prosecution if you displayed the handgun
under circumstances in which you would have been justified in using
deadly force (see Penal Code chap 9). I would hope classes, ranges and
gun shops would be exceptions.
b1) On the premises of a business which derives 51% or more of
its income for the sale or service of alcohol for ON-site consumption.
These are the places which must have the red 51 sign.
b2) On the premises where a high school, collegiate, or
professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place.
(There is a technical exception for qualified participants in shooting
events.)
b3) On the premises of a correctional facility.
b4) On the premises of a nursing home. (Hospitals are no longer
forbidden and must have the proper “no guns” sign which I’ll explain
later.)
b5) In an amusement park. Many additional concerns; must be
at least 75 acres, open more than 120 days/year, have security guards
on premises, etc.
b6) (Churches now must have the proper “effective notice”.
Otherwise it is legal to carry to/in church.)
c) At any meeting of a governmental entity! This one can include
Fire Dept and EMS meetings as well as other government or
government-funded organizations. Be careful! This one can be tricky!
d) If intoxicated. That is “in the opinion of the arresting officer”.
No blood test, no Breathalyzer, etc.
e) If in uniform as a Security officers licensed under the Private
Investigators and Private Security Agencies Act (Article 4413(29bb)).
You must wear the gun as prescribed by THOSE directives when in
uniform.
f1) explains what an amusement park is for this particular
application of law.
f3) “Premises” means a building or a portion of a building. The
term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or
walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
g) Offenses are Class A misdemeanors except for b1 and b3
which are 3d degree felonies.
i) Subsections b4, b5, and b6 and c require “effective notice”
(addressed later)
-----
Under PC 46.03,
a) it is illegal to carry on or about your person a handgun, illegal
knife, club, or prohibited weapon (see 46.05a):
a1) On the physical premises of a public or private school or
education institution, any grounds or building on which they sponsor an
activity, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational
institution.
a2) On the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or
when early voting is in progress.
a3) In ANY government court of offices utilized by the court.
a4) On the premises of a racetrack
a5) in or into the secured area of an airport.
b) There are some exceptions (see the book)
--------
PC 30.06. Trespass by holder of license to carry concealed
handgun.
a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
a1) carries a handgun under the authority (of the CHL statute),
op property of another without effective consent; and
a2) received notice that:
a2a) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed
handgun was forbidden; or
a2b) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was
forbidden and failed to depart.
b) For the purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the
owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the
owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
c) In this section:
c3) “Written communication” means
c3a) a card or other document on which is written language
identical to the following: “Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code
(trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person
licensed under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes (concealed handgun
law) may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.”
- This sign must be in both English and Spanish, in contrasting colors
with block letters at least one inch in height, and displayed in a
conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
-------
This is an excerpt. I am not an attorney. Please consult an attorney for
qualified interpretation of the law and specific advice.
(whew, I’m pooped!)
Jedi,
Only computers give cookies! C’mon over for a Shiner Bock!
Generally, a concealed handgun license permits you to carry anywhere it
is not prohibited to do so. Isn’t that cute?
I’ll will take some information as an excerpt from Texas Penal Code
46.035. For the full text, complete meaning, and application of the
law, consult current law or a qualified attorney as the following excerpt
and this entire post are incomplete and may be inadequate for your
needs.
-------
Where are you NOT permitted to carry a concealed handgun as a CHL
holder?
a) You commit an offense if you intentionally fail to conceal the
handgun. It is a defense to prosecution if you displayed the handgun
under circumstances in which you would have been justified in using
deadly force (see Penal Code chap 9). I would hope classes, ranges and
gun shops would be exceptions.
b1) On the premises of a business which derives 51% or more of
its income for the sale or service of alcohol for ON-site consumption.
These are the places which must have the red 51 sign.
b2) On the premises where a high school, collegiate, or
professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place.
(There is a technical exception for qualified participants in shooting
events.)
b3) On the premises of a correctional facility.
b4) On the premises of a nursing home. (Hospitals are no longer
forbidden and must have the proper “no guns” sign which I’ll explain
later.)
b5) In an amusement park. Many additional concerns; must be
at least 75 acres, open more than 120 days/year, have security guards
on premises, etc.
b6) (Churches now must have the proper “effective notice”.
Otherwise it is legal to carry to/in church.)
c) At any meeting of a governmental entity! This one can include
Fire Dept and EMS meetings as well as other government or
government-funded organizations. Be careful! This one can be tricky!
d) If intoxicated. That is “in the opinion of the arresting officer”.
No blood test, no Breathalyzer, etc.
e) If in uniform as a Security officers licensed under the Private
Investigators and Private Security Agencies Act (Article 4413(29bb)).
You must wear the gun as prescribed by THOSE directives when in
uniform.
f1) explains what an amusement park is for this particular
application of law.
f3) “Premises” means a building or a portion of a building. The
term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or
walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
g) Offenses are Class A misdemeanors except for b1 and b3
which are 3d degree felonies.
i) Subsections b4, b5, and b6 and c require “effective notice”
(addressed later)
-----
Under PC 46.03,
a) it is illegal to carry on or about your person a handgun, illegal
knife, club, or prohibited weapon (see 46.05a):
a1) On the physical premises of a public or private school or
education institution, any grounds or building on which they sponsor an
activity, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational
institution.
a2) On the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or
when early voting is in progress.
a3) In ANY government court of offices utilized by the court.
a4) On the premises of a racetrack
a5) in or into the secured area of an airport.
b) There are some exceptions (see the book)
--------
PC 30.06. Trespass by holder of license to carry concealed
handgun.
a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
a1) carries a handgun under the authority (of the CHL statute),
op property of another without effective consent; and
a2) received notice that:
a2a) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed
handgun was forbidden; or
a2b) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was
forbidden and failed to depart.
b) For the purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the
owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the
owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
c) In this section:
c3) “Written communication” means
c3a) a card or other document on which is written language
identical to the following: “Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code
(trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person
licensed under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes (concealed handgun
law) may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.”
- This sign must be in both English and Spanish, in contrasting colors
with block letters at least one inch in height, and displayed in a
conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
-------
This is an excerpt. I am not an attorney. Please consult an attorney for
qualified interpretation of the law and specific advice.
(whew, I’m pooped!)
Jedi,
Only computers give cookies! C’mon over for a Shiner Bock!
The situation here is strange as well. Our company employee handbook specifically contains a "no weapons" policy for our premises, which includes the building and parking lot, I presume. Note, I didn't say "no firearms", I said "no weapons".
I've pointed out many times in the past that, anything in the office, from a paint can that can be turned into a moltov cocktail, to a desk chair, to a simple utility knife could technically be used as a weapon. Hell, the cheesy utility knives that we hand out to customers have a blade as long as my Spyderco. I even tease the HR director that we can't have any more birthday cakes because the policy doesn't allow a knife long enough to cut one. One of the fellows in training who brought his Ruger in was "talked to" but he was foolish enough to want to play show and tell and the wrong person saw it.
The HR director definitely knows how I feel about this issue. She also knows that I at least carry a knife "strictly for utilitary purposes". Nobody has ever said anything about anyone bringing the bows or arrows at least in their cars during hunting season. The former president brought his shotgun in once (another typical example of presidential powers not pertaining to the little people, but that's another story, please don't get me started).
I'd say that it's strictly don't ask, don't tell. If something were discreetely kept locked in the car, there may not be a problem. I've never seen anyone searching cars looking for contraband.
Fortunately, there are a handful of hunters or at least outdoor minded people, and then, if you throw in the open-minded ones or ones who are at least not anti-gun, there may be a chance to make some changes.
------------------
Ron
Detroit Area Chapter
Terra-Haute Torque & Recoil Scoiety
I've pointed out many times in the past that, anything in the office, from a paint can that can be turned into a moltov cocktail, to a desk chair, to a simple utility knife could technically be used as a weapon. Hell, the cheesy utility knives that we hand out to customers have a blade as long as my Spyderco. I even tease the HR director that we can't have any more birthday cakes because the policy doesn't allow a knife long enough to cut one. One of the fellows in training who brought his Ruger in was "talked to" but he was foolish enough to want to play show and tell and the wrong person saw it.
The HR director definitely knows how I feel about this issue. She also knows that I at least carry a knife "strictly for utilitary purposes". Nobody has ever said anything about anyone bringing the bows or arrows at least in their cars during hunting season. The former president brought his shotgun in once (another typical example of presidential powers not pertaining to the little people, but that's another story, please don't get me started
).I'd say that it's strictly don't ask, don't tell. If something were discreetely kept locked in the car, there may not be a problem. I've never seen anyone searching cars looking for contraband.
Fortunately, there are a handful of hunters or at least outdoor minded people, and then, if you throw in the open-minded ones or ones who are at least not anti-gun, there may be a chance to make some changes.
------------------
Ron
Detroit Area Chapter
Terra-Haute Torque & Recoil Scoiety
Jedi Oomodo
New member
Thank you, Dennis. My copy of the Texas CHL handbook that comes with the application materials is at home, so I couldn't look up the info I needed. Instead, I had to quote from memory with regard to "premises", posting, and all that mumbo-jumbo, as well as remember some word-of-mouth stuff I learned in the class. It looks like I more-or-less remembered it right.
Don't you think it's also "cute" how it's OK for businesses open to the public to have a blanket ban on a certain class of people, yet it's considerd "wrong" to have such a ban on other classes?
BTW, I don't drink beer. Got any DP?
------------------
"Is fhe'arr teicheadh math na droch fhuireach"
-Sarabian Oomodo
If it isn't Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
A firearm isn't a weapon until it is used as such.
Don't you think it's also "cute" how it's OK for businesses open to the public to have a blanket ban on a certain class of people, yet it's considerd "wrong" to have such a ban on other classes?
BTW, I don't drink beer. Got any DP?
------------------
"Is fhe'arr teicheadh math na droch fhuireach"
-Sarabian Oomodo
If it isn't Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
A firearm isn't a weapon until it is used as such.