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CBS news hit Rem 700 tonight
- Thread starter Mike50
- Start date
Dave Finfrock
New member
I've long heard (been told) that the M700s trigger mechanism/safety is a PoS. Personally, I've never had trouble with it, but I've only shot friends' 700s--and not often at that.
Hope it's not true for Remington's sake.
Hope it's not true for Remington's sake.
Master Blaster
New member
I wonder if the problem has to do with the fact that you can adjust the trigger weight and the Sear engagement.
Seems to me that if you adjusted the sear engagement too much in the quest for the perfect trigger you could cause a problem.
Seems to me that if you adjusted the sear engagement too much in the quest for the perfect trigger you could cause a problem.
Tom Matiska
New member
Is this deja vu all over again? If memory serves me correctly the demise fo the 788 was hastened by a lawsuit that alleged the 788 could possible fire when the safe was released.
Anybody know the take on this?
Tom
Anybody know the take on this?
Tom
They ALL can be made to fail.
I saw that fiasco on CBS last night too. No doubt it is the worst tragedy a family can be faced with, killing your own child. And I can understand the families desire to place the "blame" on an "Inanimate Object". Seems to be a virus infecting otherwise good folks coming from the Ultra-Liberal Radical-Leftists. Don't agree with it, but I do understand it.
But, here is the situation (not problem) as I see it.
I believe I can take ANY mechanical firing mechanism ever made and put a small piece of trash in the right spot inside it, simulate a bit of wear with a hone, break a specific piece, or adjust it "improperly" and make it fire anytime you move the Safety to "OFF".
Likewise, I believe I can do all the same things just a bit differently and you will never be able to fire the mechanism, under any circumstances short of tossing the firearm into a fire and letting the round cook-off.
No doubt in my mind at all, that this sort of a "situation" (legal defense, reliability issue) is what caused Ruger to go to non-adjustable triggers on their M77-IIs (or what ever they call them). I nearly bought one without realizing that back when they first came on the market. Thank goodness the Gun Shop owner knew me well enough to say, "I don't think "YOU" will like the fact it has a non-adjustable trigger!" He was correct, and I didn't buy.
Now, before anyone panicks, let me say that if you get a "good trigger" (clean breaking and no creep), then the non-adjustability would not "normally" be that big of a deal to most folks.
Just remember where the report is coming from, CBS. And expect the 2nd part to be "worse" tonight. Wouldn't surprise me to see CBS do a full 1-hour "News(?)" Special on them. Just one more slam against the Oldest firearm manufacturer in the USA.
A person can be killed by a bow and arrow if the bow is "loaded", then pointed at a person and the Sear (finger tips, release mechanism) slips, breaks or is improperly adjusted. Do they need to be re-designed?
Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core
I saw that fiasco on CBS last night too. No doubt it is the worst tragedy a family can be faced with, killing your own child. And I can understand the families desire to place the "blame" on an "Inanimate Object". Seems to be a virus infecting otherwise good folks coming from the Ultra-Liberal Radical-Leftists. Don't agree with it, but I do understand it.
But, here is the situation (not problem) as I see it.
I believe I can take ANY mechanical firing mechanism ever made and put a small piece of trash in the right spot inside it, simulate a bit of wear with a hone, break a specific piece, or adjust it "improperly" and make it fire anytime you move the Safety to "OFF".
Likewise, I believe I can do all the same things just a bit differently and you will never be able to fire the mechanism, under any circumstances short of tossing the firearm into a fire and letting the round cook-off.
No doubt in my mind at all, that this sort of a "situation" (legal defense, reliability issue) is what caused Ruger to go to non-adjustable triggers on their M77-IIs (or what ever they call them). I nearly bought one without realizing that back when they first came on the market. Thank goodness the Gun Shop owner knew me well enough to say, "I don't think "YOU" will like the fact it has a non-adjustable trigger!" He was correct, and I didn't buy.
Now, before anyone panicks, let me say that if you get a "good trigger" (clean breaking and no creep), then the non-adjustability would not "normally" be that big of a deal to most folks.
Just remember where the report is coming from, CBS. And expect the 2nd part to be "worse" tonight. Wouldn't surprise me to see CBS do a full 1-hour "News(?)" Special on them. Just one more slam against the Oldest firearm manufacturer in the USA.
A person can be killed by a bow and arrow if the bow is "loaded", then pointed at a person and the Sear (finger tips, release mechanism) slips, breaks or is improperly adjusted. Do they need to be re-designed?
Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core
I didn't catch the first program last night, so these are only my opinions:
I condole the loss for those family. On the other hand, why did someone point a loaded rifle and took off the safety? That's totally wrong unless one "intend" to kill, right?
Remington is very serious about anyone adjusting the trigger in their manual. Too bad that articles on how to adjust one are everywhere, and "someone" out there will always want to take the chance. I doubt CBS will tell the whole story (experience from their last story on "Police Sniper") instead of their partial objective.
I totally agree what "Hot Core" said as a mechanical engineer myself. ALL mechanical devices will malfunction if not used as intended. Remington trigger is one of the best in the market (I have one "Adjusted" in one of mine), but it's no match trigger like Jewell or Shilen (40X uses a different trigger than regular 700 does). When one tries to take out that last bit of creep from the trigger pull, something will be compromised.
I condole the loss for those family. On the other hand, why did someone point a loaded rifle and took off the safety? That's totally wrong unless one "intend" to kill, right?
Remington is very serious about anyone adjusting the trigger in their manual. Too bad that articles on how to adjust one are everywhere, and "someone" out there will always want to take the chance. I doubt CBS will tell the whole story (experience from their last story on "Police Sniper") instead of their partial objective.
I totally agree what "Hot Core" said as a mechanical engineer myself. ALL mechanical devices will malfunction if not used as intended. Remington trigger is one of the best in the market (I have one "Adjusted" in one of mine), but it's no match trigger like Jewell or Shilen (40X uses a different trigger than regular 700 does). When one tries to take out that last bit of creep from the trigger pull, something will be compromised.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
IIRC, it was a 788 which was the subject of a lawsuit tried in Austin, Texas, back in the 1970s. A son shot his father during a hunting trip. The son, sitting in the back of a jeep, went to unload the rifle. Upon releasing the safety, he claimed, the gun fired.
I prefer to leave the bolt-handle up, rather than use a safety. Going back to "way back when", I was always told to not trust a safety. A rather stern look always accompanied the standard, "Always point a gun in a safe direction."
If one is going to use a safety, it seems to me to be logical that it be tested several times--with the chamber empty. Put the rifle on "Safe". Bump it on the floor a few times. Release the safety; see what happens. Repeat, but try to pull the trigger, and then release the safety.
But as a certain fella sez, the best safety is the one between your ears.
Art
I prefer to leave the bolt-handle up, rather than use a safety. Going back to "way back when", I was always told to not trust a safety. A rather stern look always accompanied the standard, "Always point a gun in a safe direction."
If one is going to use a safety, it seems to me to be logical that it be tested several times--with the chamber empty. Put the rifle on "Safe". Bump it on the floor a few times. Release the safety; see what happens. Repeat, but try to pull the trigger, and then release the safety.
But as a certain fella sez, the best safety is the one between your ears.
Art
A
AmericanFreeBird
Guest
I just bought a 700 Varmint in .308 Win.
I haven't even had the chance to fire it yet, still need to get the optics properly mounted. I've played with the action and dry fired it once to test the trigger pull. I hope I didn't make a mistake by buying it because so far, I like the look & feel of the weapon.
Thanks for the FYI, I'll make sure I test the safety extensively. But more importantly, I'll never point any loaded weapon at a human I don't intend to kill, Remington or otherwise!
AFB
I haven't even had the chance to fire it yet, still need to get the optics properly mounted. I've played with the action and dry fired it once to test the trigger pull. I hope I didn't make a mistake by buying it because so far, I like the look & feel of the weapon.
Thanks for the FYI, I'll make sure I test the safety extensively. But more importantly, I'll never point any loaded weapon at a human I don't intend to kill, Remington or otherwise!
AFB
Well, I decided to try this last night with a 700. I flipped the safety off every which way possible. Guess what, it did go off one time during the test! Oh, and one small bit of info - I had my finger on the trigger. I wonder if this isn't a case similar to the Audi-runs-wild case from many years ago. Someone who hasn't been taught very well keeps their finger on the trigger all the time and releases the safety - BOOM. "But, they keep their finger on the triggers on TV, don't they?"
I did not see the story on CBS but as a new participant to the sport of shooting I recently took my Firearms Safety Test.
I remember a question regarding the mechanical safety on a firearm. The correct answer was something to the fact that the mechanical safety on the firearm was in no way intended to replace common sense and it should not be relied upon!
I had a little lesson on this recently at the local gun range. Went to the range with my dad and his old Colt Officers Model .38 Spec. revolver. I have not shot this firearm since I was about 12 years old and even then I think it was only one shot in the backyard... Anyway, pointing the gun down-range I loaded it, pulled the hammer back, pointed the pistol at the target and placed my finger on the trigger and blammo! The gun fired. I hardly even touched the trigger. Scared the crap out of me.. My first instinct was "jeezze this thing is dangerous". My second instinct was, "damm this trigger is really nice".
If I had been careless or a little lazy with the "downrange" thing or the "don't place your finger on the trigger until your target is in sight" thing there could have been some serious problems. This pistol did not have any mechanical safety.
I recently purchased an SKS rifle. The salesman did not even ask to see my Firearms safety cert. I guess they are not required for rifles.. I thought to my self... What are the differences between the safety procedures used when handling a handgun vs. a rifle..... NONE!!!! Do you think that lady who shot her kid had her basic firearms safety certification? If she does, it should be revoked regardless of any flaws with the Rem. 700.
Just my 5 cents..
C-ya!
I remember a question regarding the mechanical safety on a firearm. The correct answer was something to the fact that the mechanical safety on the firearm was in no way intended to replace common sense and it should not be relied upon!
I had a little lesson on this recently at the local gun range. Went to the range with my dad and his old Colt Officers Model .38 Spec. revolver. I have not shot this firearm since I was about 12 years old and even then I think it was only one shot in the backyard... Anyway, pointing the gun down-range I loaded it, pulled the hammer back, pointed the pistol at the target and placed my finger on the trigger and blammo! The gun fired. I hardly even touched the trigger. Scared the crap out of me.. My first instinct was "jeezze this thing is dangerous". My second instinct was, "damm this trigger is really nice".
If I had been careless or a little lazy with the "downrange" thing or the "don't place your finger on the trigger until your target is in sight" thing there could have been some serious problems. This pistol did not have any mechanical safety.
I recently purchased an SKS rifle. The salesman did not even ask to see my Firearms safety cert. I guess they are not required for rifles.. I thought to my self... What are the differences between the safety procedures used when handling a handgun vs. a rifle..... NONE!!!! Do you think that lady who shot her kid had her basic firearms safety certification? If she does, it should be revoked regardless of any flaws with the Rem. 700.
Just my 5 cents..
C-ya!
I don't own, nor have I ever shot, a Rem 700. However my Win Mod 70 will fire almost everytime I release the safety if my index finger is inside the trigger guard. It has nothing to do with the mechanics of the safety and everything to do with the mechanics of my wrist. In order to push the safety forward to the "fire" position with my thumb, while my finger is held inside the trigger guard, I have to rotate my wrist down and forward which rotates my index finger into the trigger causing it to fire. The trigger is set to whatever the factory pull weight is so we aren't talking "hair" trigger here. I've tried this even while concentrating on not pressing the trigger and it still fires most times.
The obvious lesson is to never have your finger inside the trigger guard unless your sights are on the target and you are ready to fire.
The obvious lesson is to never have your finger inside the trigger guard unless your sights are on the target and you are ready to fire.
Sear reset.
I believe that most of the problems with the 700 have been due to 1) incompetent people "adjusting" the triggers, leading to 2) sear movement with the safety on, then by 3)people pulling the trigger when the safety is on.
Still, the Remington 700 trigger mechanism is somewhat more prone to problems than other types. It uses a piece called the trigger connector, which helps give an extremely good trigger pull. But it also uses a propup sear, which is held in the path of the cocking piece by that connector. The safety blocks sear movement and moves the sear off the connector. But if the mechanism is badly worn or misadjusted, and the trigger is pulled with the safety on, the connector can fail to reset and the sear will be held only by the safety. The gun will then fire when the safety is removed. The Remington safety does not have a mechanism to draw the cocking piece off the sear when the safety is set; it depends on the safety completely blocking the sear from any movement.
The basic problem is still the person who disregards every safety rule and points the gun in an unsafe direction. But that person is a voter, and watches CBS, so it is easier to blame the gun. Some of us have become expert at blaming some indefinite "it" rather than themselves. "My car ran into the child", "an incident happened with that woman", my gun went off all by itself", "the drug dealer who cheated me got killed", are cliches because they are used so often to avoid responsibility.
Jim
I believe that most of the problems with the 700 have been due to 1) incompetent people "adjusting" the triggers, leading to 2) sear movement with the safety on, then by 3)people pulling the trigger when the safety is on.
Still, the Remington 700 trigger mechanism is somewhat more prone to problems than other types. It uses a piece called the trigger connector, which helps give an extremely good trigger pull. But it also uses a propup sear, which is held in the path of the cocking piece by that connector. The safety blocks sear movement and moves the sear off the connector. But if the mechanism is badly worn or misadjusted, and the trigger is pulled with the safety on, the connector can fail to reset and the sear will be held only by the safety. The gun will then fire when the safety is removed. The Remington safety does not have a mechanism to draw the cocking piece off the sear when the safety is set; it depends on the safety completely blocking the sear from any movement.
The basic problem is still the person who disregards every safety rule and points the gun in an unsafe direction. But that person is a voter, and watches CBS, so it is easier to blame the gun. Some of us have become expert at blaming some indefinite "it" rather than themselves. "My car ran into the child", "an incident happened with that woman", my gun went off all by itself", "the drug dealer who cheated me got killed", are cliches because they are used so often to avoid responsibility.
Jim
FWIW: After a trigger job, I had the same problem (firing upon safety release) with a different rifle. Fortunately I was practicing dry-firing at a range. A screw had come loose and something was creeping out of place.
Guns are machines. Machines malfunction. Sometimes people get hurt when machines malfunction, particularly if the person is not behaving safely (in the case at hand, she was not considering what was beyond the target; the boy was on the other side of the wall).
Guns are machines. Machines malfunction. Sometimes people get hurt when machines malfunction, particularly if the person is not behaving safely (in the case at hand, she was not considering what was beyond the target; the boy was on the other side of the wall).
The best safety sits between your ears.
Let's see:
1. Always assume the weapon is loaded; 2. NEVER POINT THE MUZZLE AT ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT DESTROYED; 3. Always keep your finger off of the trigger until your ready to fire; and, 4. Be sure of your target and beyond.
I'd say that this is a comparative fault situation. Whether the Remington rifle has a bad design remains to be seen.
Let's see:
1. Always assume the weapon is loaded; 2. NEVER POINT THE MUZZLE AT ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT DESTROYED; 3. Always keep your finger off of the trigger until your ready to fire; and, 4. Be sure of your target and beyond.
I'd say that this is a comparative fault situation. Whether the Remington rifle has a bad design remains to be seen.
OK: we've all agreed that one should never point a firearm in an unsafe direction - ever. We've also agreed that the media in general, and CBS in particular, sometimes air stories that are incomplete, biased, or sloppy, especially stories concerning firearms.
Let's move on.
Does the Remington 700 have a serious, documented flaw in its safety mechanism, or does it not?
db
Let's move on.
Does the Remington 700 have a serious, documented flaw in its safety mechanism, or does it not?
db
WalterGAII
Moderator
I've adjusted a bunch of Rem. 700 triggers. If the pull weight is too low and/or the creep adjustment is too precarious, the rifles will fire when the safety's moved to the "off" position. I've adjusted the creep on my own 700 VS to the point that the rifle would fire when the bolt was lowered.
If the trigger's adjusted properly, with enough creep left in, and the weight not below 3#, or so, then the safety will work. That's not to say that the muzzle shouldn't always be pointed in a safe direction.
One of the problems with the older Rems (like the one in the CBS piece) was that the bolt wouldn't open when the safety was "on". That was corrected in the 80's, and modern 700's permit the cycling of the bolt, regardless of the position of the safety.
A young man for whom I had ajusted the trigger on a 700 recently called me and told me that it was firing, after he'd pulled the trigger with the safety "on", then taking the safety off, with his finger off the trigger. I readjusted the trigger and now all's well.
If the trigger's adjusted properly, with enough creep left in, and the weight not below 3#, or so, then the safety will work. That's not to say that the muzzle shouldn't always be pointed in a safe direction.
One of the problems with the older Rems (like the one in the CBS piece) was that the bolt wouldn't open when the safety was "on". That was corrected in the 80's, and modern 700's permit the cycling of the bolt, regardless of the position of the safety.
A young man for whom I had ajusted the trigger on a 700 recently called me and told me that it was firing, after he'd pulled the trigger with the safety "on", then taking the safety off, with his finger off the trigger. I readjusted the trigger and now all's well.