Cav arms raided?
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wildalaska asked:
WRT this case:
Forfeiture absent criminal charges should raise a red flag for any fair-minded citizen. We're been told repeatedly by LE, that this recourse is only applied in cases such as drug "mules", who don't even bother to defend against forfeiture of large amounts of cash. Implication is obvious guilt absent criminal charges, to excuse the normal expectation of due process.
This case, involving an ongoing licensed business, not drug mules, begs the question: why?
The very large value of inventory confiscated in February (thousands of guns as I understand it), coupled with the fact that in order to challenge the forfeiture, one must post a cash bond equal to a percentage of the asset value (is my understanding correct, counselor wildalaska)?
Also, in following this story, ATF appears to be willfully trying to trip up Cavalry Arms' attempts to survive the hit with follow-on production; by not answering straight forward questions regarding said efforts, until too late to avoid wasting money.
The obvious conclusion is malicious prosecution.
Got a better analysis for your beloved ATF in this case, wildalaska? Didn't think so.
Cavalry Arms can and will make their choices based on many factors including available financial resources (a built in limitation that the government repeatedly exploits). Why should that prevent citizens from expressing their opinions on discussion boards; as you suggest?
You obviously don't get it. God, wa, don't even you get sick of repeatedly suggesting revolution, every time someone questions a dubious .gov action? What's coming next, your frequent suggestion that everyone charge city hall with machine guns? :barf: Is it even possible for you to engage in a normal discussion?
WRT this case:
Forfeiture absent criminal charges should raise a red flag for any fair-minded citizen. We're been told repeatedly by LE, that this recourse is only applied in cases such as drug "mules", who don't even bother to defend against forfeiture of large amounts of cash. Implication is obvious guilt absent criminal charges, to excuse the normal expectation of due process.
This case, involving an ongoing licensed business, not drug mules, begs the question: why?
The very large value of inventory confiscated in February (thousands of guns as I understand it), coupled with the fact that in order to challenge the forfeiture, one must post a cash bond equal to a percentage of the asset value (is my understanding correct, counselor wildalaska)?
Also, in following this story, ATF appears to be willfully trying to trip up Cavalry Arms' attempts to survive the hit with follow-on production; by not answering straight forward questions regarding said efforts, until too late to avoid wasting money.
The obvious conclusion is malicious prosecution.
Got a better analysis for your beloved ATF in this case, wildalaska? Didn't think so.
Cavalry Arms can and will make their choices based on many factors including available financial resources (a built in limitation that the government repeatedly exploits). Why should that prevent citizens from expressing their opinions on discussion boards; as you suggest?
toybox99615
New member
More of the same nonesence
So I guess CAV arms has just given up all their rights and surrendered. After all the government men have made these unilateral judgements where they can confiscate guns and then have them forfeited with no due process.
The stories are getting old about how these completely innocent people/businesses get invaded by BATF for no reason. THen these people/businesses are completly unable to get any court in the entire country to find BATF actions in the wrong.
With all the attorneys in the country willing to jump in on any case that makes good PR for their career not one is available to defend these people/businesses.
Meanwhile I guess all the dealers and manufactures who are not being continually harasses by BATF must have some secret way to keep thier operations from the scourge of these injustices.
So I guess CAV arms has just given up all their rights and surrendered. After all the government men have made these unilateral judgements where they can confiscate guns and then have them forfeited with no due process.
The stories are getting old about how these completely innocent people/businesses get invaded by BATF for no reason. THen these people/businesses are completly unable to get any court in the entire country to find BATF actions in the wrong.
With all the attorneys in the country willing to jump in on any case that makes good PR for their career not one is available to defend these people/businesses.
Meanwhile I guess all the dealers and manufactures who are not being continually harasses by BATF must have some secret way to keep thier operations from the scourge of these injustices.
Wildalaska
Moderator
I dont know, must one
How do you know? You work with Cavs Attorneys? O wait...ya read it on a blog...my bad
Dude I've shoved more stuff up the butts of State and Federal Law Enforcement Officers/Agents on the witness stand that you will ever know...
Why don't you let the Court decide instead of rants based on your skewed worldview.....
PS...how do you know forfeiture is not part of a deal agreed to by Cavalry Arms?
Get a grip
WildireiteratemyprorstatementAlaska TM
PPS
An opinion based on no facts is a screech.
list of items confiscated by ATF
http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2008/05/seized-cavalry-arms-inventory-in-wsj.html
here is a list of the hundreds of thousands of dollars of guns taken from Cav arms
http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2008/05/seized-cavalry-arms-inventory-in-wsj.html
here is a list of the hundreds of thousands of dollars of guns taken from Cav arms
toybox99615
New member
WTF lets wait a minute
From the OP it appeared Cav arms is a manufacturer. Then according to the inventory list there are suppose to be machine guns. I don't follow the information when I read about the inventory. Exactly what did CAV manufacture.
From the OP it appeared Cav arms is a manufacturer. Then according to the inventory list there are suppose to be machine guns. I don't follow the information when I read about the inventory. Exactly what did CAV manufacture.
DonR101395
New member
AR15 polymer lowers and AR15 furniture.
atf
The ATF has a high persentage of ex cops who were asked to resign or get fired.I know some.they were bad cops to begin with.
the system is to bankrupt you until you give in.
yrs ago the judges ruled a gun was not a machine gun if it did not have all the parts to fire it.then we had dewats now its one piece.no dewats were ever used in crime.
they only are interested in numbers of arrests convictions dont matter,so keep after some on until you wear them out.2nd be dam****.you gun owners will lose your rights because you will have a number of you WILL cave and turn others in.I had the vicee president of my club bring an ATF agent to my house trying to buy guns,I told them every was buying not selling.they came for a yr then he brings a m16 in finnaly they stopped because they could not get me to bite.The agent was son of the local chief of FBI office.I had an in that kept me informed.I go now I am too upset.
The ATF has a high persentage of ex cops who were asked to resign or get fired.I know some.they were bad cops to begin with.
the system is to bankrupt you until you give in.
yrs ago the judges ruled a gun was not a machine gun if it did not have all the parts to fire it.then we had dewats now its one piece.no dewats were ever used in crime.
they only are interested in numbers of arrests convictions dont matter,so keep after some on until you wear them out.2nd be dam****.you gun owners will lose your rights because you will have a number of you WILL cave and turn others in.I had the vicee president of my club bring an ATF agent to my house trying to buy guns,I told them every was buying not selling.they came for a yr then he brings a m16 in finnaly they stopped because they could not get me to bite.The agent was son of the local chief of FBI office.I had an in that kept me informed.I go now I am too upset.Has anyone heard anything new on this? Last I heard ATF siezed thousands of completed and partially completed AR lowers claiming that they were being illegally manufactured since the molding and fusion processes weren't happening at the same place. They then refused to giv Cav arms a straight answer on what they could do to make the manufacturing process acceptable to ATF. They then started the process to permanently confiscate (and most likely destroy) all of the Cav arms products they siezed.
I'm guessing that Cav arms is still out of business and ATF is gleefully reporting that another illegal arms manufacturer has been put out of business.
I'm guessing that Cav arms is still out of business and ATF is gleefully reporting that another illegal arms manufacturer has been put out of business.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Very sad to see this. Of course I have read other threads on here that got me worked up and then I looked into it and saw the posts were very slanted here(malfunctioning AR-15). When I looked into manufacturing I was told several times very blatantly that any location where any part was manufactured had to have a license.
Brett Bellmore
New member
Well, yeah, frequently that IS the case. Read about it happening all the time. Sure, that's not supposed to be the case... But we're talking about the freaking BATF here, not a normal law enforcement agency here. You know, "Good ol boys roundup", agents ordered to lie under oath, "Always Think Forfeiture"?
They seized Calvary's inventory, have not brought charges, and now they're going to dispose of it. Dispose of a company's inventory without any effort to establish their guilt.
You may think that's conceivably legitimate, but I don't.
Stagger Lee
New member
As usual, someone gets half the story--or less--from one side and immediately there is a ton of people screaming that everything they say must be true and the whole story for no other reason than BATFE is involved we've all heard half-stories like this about BATFE before, and even though the party that's telling the tales is directly involved and implicated in wrongdoing and thus has a real good reason to twist the story around a bit (or out-and-out fabricate a new one), no one seems to want to find out what the real story is before ranting about how the poor person was "victimized" by BATFE.
If BATFE is really so out of control, where are all of the mainstream news stories? Where are the congressional investigations? Why are all of the accused eventually convicted in court when all of the evidence is presented to a jury?
Remember the farce surrounding Olofson? Why do the same people keep getting led down that road over and over again, never questioning the stories that they hear from any criminally-accused, as long as it's BATFE that was involved.
If BATFE is really so out of control, where are all of the mainstream news stories? Where are the congressional investigations? Why are all of the accused eventually convicted in court when all of the evidence is presented to a jury?
Remember the farce surrounding Olofson? Why do the same people keep getting led down that road over and over again, never questioning the stories that they hear from any criminally-accused, as long as it's BATFE that was involved.
You mean THESE congresional hearing on the BATFE's misdeeds? The hearings that spawned a couple congressional bills to reform the BATFE due to thier tactics?
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=191&issue=28
Ddo a google search of batfe congressional hearings if you want more info on them.They happened just 2 years ago, spawned mainly by the batfe watching people buy guns at a gun show in VA, and then going to interview thier friends and neighbors about if they knew the person owned guns, was buying a gun today, etc. Did a number of traffic stops of people leaving the shows too I beleive. Congress reprimanded them (somewhat) for thier heavy handed tactics on lawful gun purchesers and lawful dealers.
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=191&issue=28
Ddo a google search of batfe congressional hearings if you want more info on them.They happened just 2 years ago, spawned mainly by the batfe watching people buy guns at a gun show in VA, and then going to interview thier friends and neighbors about if they knew the person owned guns, was buying a gun today, etc. Did a number of traffic stops of people leaving the shows too I beleive. Congress reprimanded them (somewhat) for thier heavy handed tactics on lawful gun purchesers and lawful dealers.
All? Really? wow, I wasnt aware of ANY LEO department or agency with a 100% conviction rate.
Stagger Lee
New member
Nobody said that everyone ATF ever accused was found guilty. Just the ones that everyone on the internet gets gulled into supporting, like Olofson, Hollis Fincher, and the other nutbars that became internet commando cause celebres over the years.
Brett Bellmore
New member
Why would you expect mainstream news stories when a federal agency misbehaves by attacking the rights of gun owners? Did you see much in the way of mainstream coverage when the BATF got caught handing out "nigger hunting licenses" at a white supremest event? I didn't, but they DID do it.
We live in a country where the mainstream media is largely against us. We get worse, and the other side better, press than either of us deserve. That's not really news. You can't let whether the mainstream media report on something be your gold standard for whether it really happened.
Asset forfeiture is an ongoing outrage in this country, punishment before conviction. Some of the victims of that outrage may actually be guilty, but that doesn't save it from being an outrage.
Mr Lee,
I have nothing but respect for the fine men and women of the BATF. They are honorable and only doing their job to protect America from the menace of firearms and other vices.
There is nothing wrong with a tax collection agency kicking down doors and forcibly confiscating private property.
I hope you and your comrads have successful careers and retire on big juicy government pensions. I can't afford the tens of thousands of dollars it takes to defend oneself from Federal charges and live in an area where any jury would either be vehemently opposed to the 2nd amendment or totally ignorant about the constitution and guns. Please never come to my house.
I have nothing but respect for the fine men and women of the BATF. They are honorable and only doing their job to protect America from the menace of firearms and other vices.
There is nothing wrong with a tax collection agency kicking down doors and forcibly confiscating private property.
I hope you and your comrads have successful careers and retire on big juicy government pensions. I can't afford the tens of thousands of dollars it takes to defend oneself from Federal charges and live in an area where any jury would either be vehemently opposed to the 2nd amendment or totally ignorant about the constitution and guns. Please never come to my house.
Olofson was simply a miscarriage of justice. Took some real pricks (game wardens) to report the accidental f.a. fire.
As to the genius of BATFE agents, I made several efforts to get a simple question answered, from local field agents, through their regional office in Atlanta. Had to go to D.C. to get the question answered. (question was whether pre-'86, properly-registered machine gun could be transferred from a local l.e. agency to a private citizen)
As to the genius of BATFE agents, I made several efforts to get a simple question answered, from local field agents, through their regional office in Atlanta. Had to go to D.C. to get the question answered. (question was whether pre-'86, properly-registered machine gun could be transferred from a local l.e. agency to a private citizen)
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