Cast rifle bullets

L

littlephil

New member
Howdy all, sorry if this isn't the correct place for this, but I'm gonna include several aspects here. Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone shoots, and especially hunts with cast bullets in bottle neck rifle rounds. More specifically, hard cast bullets. I'm looking at options to start reloading for my vz mauser that has a rear aperture sight and regular front. I'd like something 170+, but all of the jacketed options I've found are a little pricey. I've found some 170s from hunters supply, and 185s with gas checks from Matt's bullets. The 185s specify that they're hard cast, I didn't see any hardness info on the 170s. These will be used for woods hunting so I'm not expecting to have super accuracy to 300+ yards or anything. I'm just wondering if hard cast works in rifles the way it does in handguns. I've heard good and bad in the few articles and threads I could find, just thought I'd ask you fine folks for your experience with em.

http://www.hunters-supply.com/324-8mm-170-p-192.html

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=265

P.S. In copying the link for the 185gr Matt's bullet, I noticed the lack of hardness rating there also. I could've sworn it said hard cast somewhere on the page when I saw it last week, but apparently I'm mistaken. At any rate, any and all input is appreciated.
 
If price is the reason for the lead, then you might consider casting them yourself.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Lyma...734095080&CQ_search=cast+lead+bullets&CQ_st=b

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/71...4-diameter-175-grain-1-ogive-radius-gas-check

I don't recommend those products, just wanted to give an example of what's out there.

Your link to the 170gr bullets indicates to me that they'd be fine for deer.

I'd also like to point out that those are 23.99 per 100, while Midway has Sierra Pro-Hunter Bullets for 28.79 per hundred.There is a price saving but not a real big one.
I will say that in my limited experience with lead cast bullets, they work fine.
 
I do. I have several antique rifles. I only load cast bullets loads for them. That includes a low-number 1903.

I can't cast for different reasons, so I buy commercially available cast bullets, mostly gas checked. I found a good caster who does a superb job. PM if want to try him. I only buy from him now.

I really want to try powder coated bullets. Finally found a caster specialized in that. Unfortunately he closed down for medical reason before he could deliver my first order. He refunded the money no problem.

Cast bullets are finicky but fun. If you do it right they can be surprisingly accurate. What they usually don't do is long range.

-TL
 
Hmm, I didn't realize there were furnaces and molds priced that low buzzcook. I've checked into casting equipment before, but I always seemed to find the expensive stuff. Although another big hurdle for me would be getting lead. I don't have any local sources that I know of, all of the tire shops turn their wheel weights in and won't even sell any. We've also only got one local outdoor range, but I haven't yet asked them if they let anyone dig up any lead. Up to now though, I couldn't really justify spending the money to get the equipment, and not have a good supply of lead. Also, I like shooting lead in my revolvers, so I thought I'd give it a try in one of my short range "brush" guns.

Tango, I'll send pm as soon as I get done with this reply. As I said in my reply to buzzcook, these will be for short range brush work anyway, so cast will suit me just fine. I've thought about doing powder coating if/when I get set up to cast for myself. From what I hear it works great. I've had really good luck with cast bullets in my 45 colt and 357 (38s only with lead so far) and thought I'd give em a go in a rifle. I'm hoping to find something that'll work on deer, bear (black), and hogs. I just have no experience or knowledge about how hard you want rifle bullets for hunting.

Thanks for the replies fellas, I appreciate y'all taking time to try and help me out!
 
Cast

If you cannot cast your own, Matt's Bullets are well made. I have used them in .452 and for a couple of rifles in .308-.309.
Hunting with hard cast .308s......they do not expand and are apt to pass right through and leave a pencil sized hole. My feeling about hunting is to use as fat a bullet as possible - like a .458.
 
if you go to a black powder match you will see how well cast bullets can shoot. i shoot a 525gr postel bullet in my sharps 45-70 with a tall staff tang sight useing H-4198 at 1400 fps. milk jugs at 300 yards are no problem. the big draw back is the big bullet drop over longer ranges due to low velocitys. i tried hard cast bullets in a 338 mag at 1800fps and shot lenth wise thru a medium size doe at under 100 yards. find a cast bullet that shoots well in your rifle and go HUNTING. eastbank.
 
I cast bullets for most of my rifles.

Best place to start if the Lyman Reloading Manual and its sister, the Lyman Cast Bullet manual.

General Rule, and like all rules there are exceptions, cast bullets cant be driven as fast as jacked bullets.

Now for some examples of the exceptions:

The 30-40 Krag cast bullets can be driven as fast as the jacket bullets, that being the 200 gr. pushed to 1900-2000 FPS. As can the 30 Cal. Carbine.

Don't let people tell you you can shoot cast/lubed bullets in gas guns. I've fired thousands in my M1a/M1/M1Carbine and ARs without problems. They make excellent gallery loads for winter shooting indoors using NRA Small Bore targets at 50 ft. Granted, most wont work the action (except for the Cabine) but for slow fire off hand practice the are perfect. Powder coated bullets can be fired fast enough to work the actions on all semis' I've tried.

Some use gas checks, but they aren't necessary. The lube is more important to prevent leading.

Powder coated bullet can be pushed as fast as jacked bullets for the most part.

For most of my rifle cast bullets I use 5744. A lot of people use pistol or other fast burning powder, but the 5744 fills the case better making more consistent loads.

You don't need super hard bullets, a proper lube will take care of the need for hard cast bullets.

Also its possible, in some cases to make your own jacketed bullets using copper tubing in the mold.

I had a mold made up for my 375 H&H that uses 3/8s in. copper tubing cut to length and laid in the mold before the lead is added. This bullet can be fired as fast as any jacketed 375 bullet without problems. It requires no lube. I do run the finished bullet through a bullet sizer to make sure its perfectly round.

jacob%20066.jpg


Once one has a supply of brass, jacketed bullets are the most expensive component of reloading. You can really cut down your shooting cost by going the cast bullet route.
 
Darkgael, thanks for the info on Matt's bullets, the pictures certainly looked quality, but it is the internet after all. I've read a few different threads where people said that the entry and exit wounds weren't all that big, but the damage to the internal organs was pretty surprising. I've personally never shot anything with cast bullets, other than shotgun slugs and 22lr of course.

Eastbank, I know the potential for accuracy is definitely there with cast, as long as you get em sized right. The trajectory on that heavy slug must be pretty rainbow like. That's one thing I've always heard about cast bullets, the penetration is second to none. I've been wondering how a small bore slug at moderate velocity reacts to bone on medium game.

Kraig, that's some good info, and I actually do have a Lyman manual, I'll have to check it out and see what kind of cast info it has for 8x57. Those are definitely some interesting bullets with the copper pipe jackets. I've heard of people using spent casings to make jackets, but that's always after casting and requires a special die. Do you have any pics of the loaded rounds with those bullets? Also, are those for hunting or strictly target work? With the bevel on the pipe I bet it'd be hard for it to shed from the lead.

Dufus, that's the first I've heard of anyone running cast that fast that I know of. It seems crazy that he didn't see any leading in 100 shots.
 
I have fired thousands of cast bullets through various 30, 375 and 458 caliber rifles. Use hard cast and I stay below 2,200 FPS. No problems.

No way good for hunting. You want an expanding bullet driven at full speed.
 
A good bore, proper lube, and a properly sized cast bullet can be a very effective hunting bullet.

I shoot nothing harder than a BHN 14.

Lyman #2 is BHN 16 and at rifle velocities and a decent range, expansion is common.

Wheel weights is the favorite because of its needing nothing but melt it down and cast. Wheel weights average a BHN 15.

Gas checks add a little more versatility to the bullets allowing higher velocities.

Lube is king with higher velocities.
 
Sounds like an inquiry or two will be in order to find out what the hardness of some of these slugs is for sure. Thanks a lot for the info and advice so far, it'll probably be a few weeks at least before I can place any orders, so I've got plenty of time to email/call around. If anyone has any other info, experience, etc, please feel free to post. I appreciate everyone taking time to post here and share info.
 
I shoot and highly endorse Matt's Bullets, they're well made and accurate. With rifle bullets, I would use a gas-checked bullet, and keep the velocity below 2000 fps. Flat nosed bullets will have the greatest wounding capacity.
 
Lube

Lube is the key....so I am reading. I would much appreciate some lube recommendations. What I have used for years is two coats of Lee liquid Alox.
If there is something better, I am ready to give it a try.
Kraig: I have about a bazillion cast .30 cal 110 grainers. I have avoided using them in my M1 Carbine because of the "lead problem". Is there any special care that you have taken so as to use cast successfully in that gun. Standard load data works? I use 2400 more often than not.
Pete
 
Littlephil:
I cant find any loaded rounds but here is the finished bullet. I don't shoot competition with my 375 H& but a lot of plinking. I'm not much hunting, I'm into smaller guns for hunting.

My kid did shoot a cow elk with it last fall, over kill to say the least, wasted a lot of meat.

As you can see from the pictures, there's not much of a chance of shedding the bullet.
375%20cast.jpg


Darkangle:

For my carbine I use the Lee bullet 311-100-2R. Its a 100 gr bullet. I use range lead which means its not really a hard cast bullet.

I size to .311. Since this is the same bullet I use in my .32 H&R and 7.62X38R Russian Negant revolver. Since I use a lot of them I tumble the bullets in the Lee Alloy Mold.

I don't have any problem with this cast bullet leading the barrel or gas system. I also use 2400 and push this bullet about 1900 fps.

I've found that LEE LIQUID ALOX works quite well in preventing leading. Not to mention its fast and easy to use if you're lubing a lot of bullets. I just pour a bit of lube over the bullets in a tupper ware container and shake them tell a light coating in on all the bullets. Let them set over night and they are ready for loading.
 
Try an industrial battery shop for scrap lead (forklift or stationary batteries, not car batteries). Sure, they get paid $.06-$.08 per pound for the stuff, but you can spring for a little more, like in 12-pack denominations.

You probably don't want stuff covered in lead oxide or sponge lead- lust ask for the lead cable ends where the cable terminates on the negative and positive terminals. These are huge chunks of the stuff, 2-3 lbs a piece. If you can find a shop that casts their own cables, even better.
 
Cast bullets take a lot of work to get them to shoot accurately. Bullet casting takes a lot of time and there is an equipment cost. While cast bullets will take down game, just as they did for hundred's of years, I have better things to do with all the time and effort it takes to develop cast rifle bullet loads.

Cast bullets is a great way to waste a lot of time.
 
I cast a lot of the lead bullets used in my handguns. I do have one 30 caliber rifle mold but haven't used it yet. It will be for reduced loads in a 30-30 mostly. Check here for all things cast bullets. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

Casting is fun. But its a labor of love. If you just need bullets for hunting you would be better of just buying jacketed bullets and getting on with the loading program. I killed the only bull elk I have killed with an 8mm mauser custom rifle built by my grandfather for my dad. I used a Sierra Pro Hunter 175gr bullet. One was all it took. The range was around 70 yards.

I like cast bullets because I can always shoot without relying on store bought supplies. If you are hunting close range and want to use lead I would encourage you to get something like a 45/70 or 444 Marlin. Even a 44 Mag makes a good brush gun to 100 yards and the bullet doesn't need to expand.
 
I forgot to add but the condition (smoothness) of your rifle bore is just as important as the hardness of the bullets. If your bore is at all rough you can just about forget lead bullets. And make darn sure you remove every trace of jacket material from your bore. Some will not shoot lead in guns after jacketed has been ran through them. Others have rifles that are dedicated to lead only. Dave Scoville of Rifle made made that point many years ago.
 
Mamba, glad to hear another recommendation for Matt's bullets. I figured a flat nose was a good ised also, I'm sure it works pretty similar to pistol bullets in the way the nose cuts a hole, more or less.

Kraig, those are definitely some neat lookin bullets. I can believe it'd be way overkill on cow elk, I've heard of and seen a few videos of people using .243, 250 savage, etc, with very good results.

Slopemeno, never thought of a place like that. Sure makes a lot of sense though, now to see if there are any near me.

Slamfire, I don't really mind taking time to get a rifle to shoot, sometimes I like the challenge. And I've thought about setting up to cast for a while, it's a good thing to be able to do in pinch and just for fun. Plus I'm sure it beats watchin the boob tube, I really can't stand those things. :rolleyes:

Ratshooter, if/when I do start casting, I'm definitely gonna cast for my handguns. That'll probably be the biggest chunk of what I cast, but it's nice having the option for rifle bullets too. Even if I just end up doing reduced loads to plink with, I'll be happy that I'm able to shoot my rifles more. That's a good suggestion on checking the bore, I'll definitely check mine since you mentioned it. I've also looked at the pro hunters to load in this rifle and may get a box to try if the cast doesn't work out. I like how the 150s shoot out of my other mauser, though I haven't got to use them on any game yet. As for having a big bore, anything inside 50 yards, I'll use my 45 colt revolver if I'm sitting, and here in Ohio I'll probably just stick my slug gun for drives. When I do get to deer hunt here, I usually don't hunt anywhere that presents a shot more than about 75 yards anyway. Though I do plan to get a big bore rifle someday, just cause.

Thanks for the input fellas, if I can get use out of this thread it's good, if someone else gets something useful also, it's even gooder! :D
Y'all stay safe and take care!
 
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