Case forming 7.65 Argentine from 30-06. Which die works?

M

mrappe

New member
I bought a RCBS case forming die for the 7.65 Arg for my 1891 Argentine. I formed the cases from WWC 30-06 new brass and then ran them thru a Lee sizing die. When I try to chamber a case the bolt will not shut. I have seen in older posts that the Lee die is for the Belgian & Argentine and that the Belgian chamber is a little larger. Unfortunately I managed to get two sets of Lee dies which I now cannot use. Are there any other dies made by someone that are only for the Argentine that will work without moding. I have seen where some one has shortened the Lee die and it worked but I don't think that I have the equipment to accurately do that or know of anyone that can do it for me.
Thanks
 
The 7.65 Belgian and 7.65 Argentine are exactly the same thing. 7.65 x 53.
Check your case length like Wil Terry says. Trim-to is 2.100"(Hodgdon says 2.080". My Lyman book says 2.100".) Max case length is 2.105".
Case dimensions are here.
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd765mauser.jpg
You'll want to slug the barrel too. Let me know if you want the Lyman data. Has cast and jacketed data up to 214 grains.
There is Prvi loaded ammo available too. Runs about $20 per 20.
 
I bought a RCBS case forming die for the 7.65 Arg for my 1891 Argentine
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Imma so proud of you. I would make sure the forming die was adjusted down to the shell holder, if necessary the die can be given the additional 1/4 additional turn. When doing the final sizing I can not help you with the lee die, I have lee dies, but do not use them.

I have Hornady. Herter and RCBS 7.65 B.M. dies, as T. O'Heir said, one die fits all 7.65 B.M. chambers. Not for public use: I make gages out of holes, the hole I use for the 7.65 is .375" in diameter AKA as 3/8". When measuring the length of a case from the shoulder/datum .375" hole to the case head I determine of the case will allow the bolt to close.

The one thing I do not assume is: Did the case get full length sized when I raised the ram? If the case is full length sized when the ram is raised the die should make it to the shell holder. BECAUSE! I adjusted the die to the shell holder when I started. I use a feeler gage when measuring the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder is there is any doubt.

Then there are those reloaders with tight chambers, I have tight chambers, when I size a case for a tight chamber I raise the case head off of the deck of the shell holder with a feeler gage. I am going to road test a few barrels, 3 of them will have chambers that will have chambers that will be as much as .008" short, no problem until I get to .012" shorter than a minimum length chamber, that would be .017" shorter than a go-gage length chamber when dealing with a 30/06.

F. Guffey
 
I do not start with a tight chamber but when forming 30/06 cases to 7.65mm53 B.M cases, how can I fail? The 30/06 shoulder is ahead of the 7.65 B.M. shoulder .192".

F. Guffey
 
I tried taking out the expander-decapper from the die and then put a 0.014" feeler gauge into the bottom of the shell holder and ran the case up again in the die after annealing it and the empty case then chambered easily into the rifle. I tried loading a bullet (Moyer's cast lead gas check 303 Brit 313 dia. 180 GR FP) into the case without primer/powder and the neck bulged on on side and was too tight. I then re-sized a case with the feeler guage with a whole in it for the pin and was able to seat a bullet evenly OK. I tried several and the rounds chamber OK with just a little tightness when opening and closing the bolt. I am still trying to determine if the necks need to be reamed/thinned as every once in a while some of them are tighter when removing as the bolt turns.
 
I tried taking out the expander-decapper from the die and then put a 0.014" feeler gauge into the bottom of the shell holder and ran the case up again in the die
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.014" !!:eek: I have Lee dies that fit like that, everything else is RCBS, .012" is it. When forming cases with a forming die and finishing with a full length sizing I have never had to shim the case off the deck of the shell holder with a feeler gage.

When forming cases for chambers I find it necessary to adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage to off set the length of the chamber.

F. Guffey
 
Did you ream/turn the case necks?

My experience in forming 7.65 and .300 Savage from .30-06 cases is that you absolutely MUST ream the case necks or you'll either not be able to fully chamber a round, or if you can, you'll run a VERY high liklihood of pinching the case so tightly in the chamber that the bullet won't be able to release and pressures will go off the charts, possibly leading to serious issues.


Forming either round from .30-06 is a lot easier if you use a form and trim die.
 
I bought a RCBS case forming die for the 7.65 Arg for my 1891 Argentine. I formed the cases from WWC 30-06 new brass and then ran them thru a Lee sizing die. When I try to chamber a case the bolt will not shut.
Click to expand...

I do not have these problems when I form cases, I verify, meaning if the ram does not push the case into the forming die I want to know how much of the case is hanging out between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. When I do my final sizing of the formed case I want to off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face with the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head.

Checking the neck outside diameter is necessary but the old military necks benefit from case forming.

F. Guffey
 
I am looking at getting a outside case turning tool. I haven't found a reamer for this size. I am assuming that I can achieve the same results by turning the outside.
 
7.65mm
19/64 inch
.301181"
Click to expand...


Turning the inside? I have reamers, to ream I have to support the outside of the neck. the old R. Lee target model reloading sets had reamers and a die that supported the outside of the neck. Not a problem? The die was not a full length sizing die, the die only sized the neck down.

It is not necessary to ream the inside diameter of the neck to an exact size. I want my necks to expand and release the bullet, then there is that part where the case neck is too long.

I also have reamer dies, reamer dies and reamers are expensive.

F. Guffey
 
Most common bullet diameter for loading this cartridge is, IIRC, .311 even though original spec bullets were either .313 or .315 (can't remember).

A .311 case neck reamer should work just fine. F. Guffy is correct, you don't need to ream (or outside turn) to an exact size, you just need to make sure that the diameter of the case neck with a bullet loaded is LESS than .346 (or whatever it says in your loading manual).
 
Consider .308 brass.

A while back, I was having trouble forming usable 7.65x53 brass from 30-06, because I had no way to reduce the case neck thickness. I took a suggestion from someone who'd done it more than I had, and used .308 Winchester brass. The necks were a wee bit short but worked just fine.
 
Good News:
I recieved the Lyman die set that I ordered in 7.65 Argentine and tried a case with it after using the RCBS case forming/trim die and trimming the case. I loaded the brass with a bullet using the Lyman seating die and it chambered and extracted easily. It looks like I will not need to turn or ream the case neck after all.
 
One case worked in the Lyman Die but the case was not going al of the way into it. The next case got stuck in the die and when I tried to lower the ram the case rim sheared off. I had to dig the case out and the expander's threaded rod got bent. It looks like I will need to turn the outside of the neck to get it to work. I ordered a Forester hand held neck turning tool since they were the only one that I could find with a 311 mandrel for.
 
One case worked in the Lyman Die but the case was not going al of the way into it. The next case got stuck in the die and when I tried to lower the ram the case rim sheared off.
Click to expand...

I would suggest you make improvements with your lube. I use a no-name lube when sizing gets tuff. Other times anything works. I have plenty of RCBS 11. Other local reloaders insist on using Imperial, there are times I have a difficult time making that stuff look good 'but' they are not going to be caught using a lube with no name.

F. Guffey
 
As suggested, slug the barrel. A friend that reloads more then I suggested to and we used a softer 308" lead bullet. The rifling dug into the bullet nicely all the way down the barrel.

So, we did a few test loads with some .308" bullets and they did fine. No key holing and the velocities were okay....

I haven't gotten to the part of case forming yet.....I just bought some formed cases a while back off of the auction sites....
 
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