CAS Peaked?

IMNSHO, those that decry the "mouse phart loads" used by some and the requirement to wear "Cowboy Clothes" are just looking for any excuse to not even try out CAS. Like I posted earlier, CAS isn't for everyone.

FM
 
I did CAS for one summer 6 years ago. It started out as fun, but quickly went down hill. Don't know what your clubs are like, but there was no socializing, arrive, shoot, go home. Then there were the 3 "gamers" they always won and were a bit too cocky for my taste. Clothes were the easy part, all I need to buy to look right were a pair of painter's pants (no blue jeans), all the other stuff, not fancy mind you, I wear daily. On a "brighter" note what ever could go wrong during my set's did!! My Schofields were forever loosening up at the frame connecting screw, occasionally a shell would not extract and fall back into the chamber under the ejection star and my best "accident" was when I ejected a shell from my Uberti Winchester 73', it went straight up in the air and came down directly into my receiver while racking another round. I'll stick with my muzzleloading group, competition is relaxed, laughter is a given and speed on the range is frowned upon......not to mention, our most stringent rule is, "No firing on the drinking line !!"
 
According to a SASS officer,,,

Membership is still growing,,,
But the rate of growth is steadily declining.

I think it's because the main demographic of SASS,,,
Is baby boomers who remember Roy Rogers.

These people (myself included),,,
Grew up on TV and Hollywood westerns,,,
The demographic is aging and are mostly retiring.

I just for this thread took an informal survey in my University computer lab,,,
Four student workers on duty and seven students in the lab,,,
I asked: "Who are Roy Rogers and Dale Evans?"

I got:
9 - I don't know.
1 - A sitcom their parents watched.
1 - "Weren't they that dancing couple from the old movies?"

The demographic who thought cowboys were the ultimate heroes is dying off.

Aarond
 
With all of the previous threads about cowboy action competition, I've never heard about there being a classification system assigned to the shooter according to his ability.
There's many shooting sports where the competitors shoot in a particular skill classification against folks having a similar ability and skill level. The skill level may be due to having better equipment, using lighter loads, more experience or just plain more talent and speed.
But the point is that folks can get frustrated and quickly tire of shooting against seasoned veteran shooters and gamers.
Classifications are made in IDPA based on a very standardized target set up that every club runs and each competitior must shoot it once a year, and there's 4 skill classifications based on their timed results for that class of gun.
Even the NRA has classifications to match each shooter's skill levels.
My own .22 club has steel plates matches that are based on A, B and C classes. If a person wins their class twice within 2 years, then they must move up a class. They can move back down a class as their wins expire within thar 2 year time frame.
It would make sense to develop a cowboy classification system based on master, expert, sharpshooter and marksman similar to the IDPA and NRA.
The complaints about the gamers are all too common in every sport.
I don't really care about cowboy action rules because I don't shoot it. But the complaints about gamers are so common. Yet there's no classification levels ever discussed as existing where newbies wouldn't need to directly compete against seasoned pros. Well, their times would be posted in the same results but the award recognition of place of finish would be based on classification. Even if there was only an "A" and a "B" class for experts and intermediates then that might be an improvement that some folks would appreciate. Once a person starts winning "B" then it's time for them to move to "A".
 
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Hello arcticap,,,

I've never heard about there being a classification system assigned to the shooter according to his ability.
Click to expand...

SASS probably has more classifications than any other shooter sports,,,
They are based on type of weapons, gender, age of shooter, costume, etc.

The joke is that pretty soon each shooter will be in class all by themselves,,,
Ensuring once and for all that everyone can win a match.

I used to go to compete against myself,,,
As well as for the camaraderie,,,
But that's a dying thing.

For the most part it's like sltm1 stated,,,
Don't know what your clubs are like, but there was no socializing, arrive, shoot, go home.
Click to expand...

Larger events aren't like this,,,
But the local shooting is often boring.

Aarond
 
I was very specific about classification based on skill level even if there were only 2 skill levels offered. IDPA offers 4.
Then the shooters can't "sand bag" their ability because once they start winning their class then they must move up to the higher classification.
This constantly helps new people to develop their skills, win their class and to move up before needing to directly compete against the gamers. :)
 
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I've never heard about there being a classification system assigned to the shooter according to his ability.
Click to expand...

'Cause there ain't no such thing in CAS.
What there is, is a plethora of divisions and categories chopping the entries up into such small batches that just about everybody has some chance of win, place, or show in a narrow little specialty.
I think there are some shoots run on Lewis classes, too.

With all those divisions and categories, if you put in classification as well, you would be down to an army of one, the number of different listings approaching the number of shooters.

I've shot a lot of different sports with classification and while that spreads out the trophies a bit, my attitude is that even though I am not in the top class in anything, I am ALWAYS competing against the seasoned pros. I realize there are people not like that, who want some way to come out a "winner" and I sure didn't turn down my fourth place Sharpshooter or High Distinguished Senior awards.
 
I think Fingers hit the nail on the head with his initial post. And, I don't think that the membership is declining either. My daughter and I became members in December of last year (2010). Our numbers were 90XXX. My 8 y/o son wanted to start shooting with us, so I got him some .22 pistols and signed him up in May 2011. His number is 92XXX. While membership may be slowing down, over 2000 new members in a 5-6 month period surely isn't bad -- especially looking at the economic issues of today.

I guess I've been lucky. The two local clubs I shoot at are now some of my closest friends. They were warm and welcoming to the newbie with interested kids. They loaned guns that we didn't have to help us shoot. They loaned us a gun cart to use. They showed us the ins and outs of how to shoot better. They helped with ammo reloading when I needed it (advice and equipment). Some of the ladies sold my daughter outfits (and ridiculously low prices because I wouldn't let them "give" them to her). They've helped, coached, cheered and patted us on the back.

Somebody tell me something else that would get my two kids out of bed at 6:30 a.m. during the summer? Yep, they enjoy it that much. I've been amazed.

Are there some of our shooters that use "gamer" loads? Not that I've seen, but I know that there are some who shoot really light loads in order to be faster. So what? We (me and my kiddos) all shoot .38's, but I do so out of economics. It's a lot cheaper loading .38's.....and I load 'em to about 775-800 fps out of our pistols. That's light enough for a 13 y/o girl to handle and not have to worry about being called a "gamer." We have BP shooters (of which, one day, I'm going to dive off into myself) who routinely show up and belch their soot ("Don't cough....you'll only encourage him!") :D.

Do we like to compete? Sure. Am I going to be World Champion? No....although my 13 y/o is the reigning Texas State Buckerette Champion (she really is a pretty good shot :) ). We have one gentleman who shows up dressed to the nines and takes his time at each stage....he shoots 9 out of 10 matches clean....that' his fun. We have another who is a former World Champion Gunfighter (one of the categories) who shoots stages in less than 20 seconds regularly. Both are good pards. No matter what your aim or desire, you can have fun YOUR way.

It's about the fun. I guess it's like anything else you go to do....if you get lucky enough to fall in with a bunch of good folks (and I think SASS has a lot of them), then it's going to be fun.

It's not for everyone, but I think you owe it to yourself to try it out for yourself before you decide.

YMMV

Tanker6
a/k/a Chickahominy Charlie
 
Sometimes a modified Lewis system works good, or an arbitrary cut off for a theoretical "B" class at a median score. Then there can be a "B" or intermediate class winner in addition to the expert.
 
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Re: Gamer loads.

One of the most authentic loads loads around would be an 80 grain round ball over 20-25 grains of BP. The recoil is something along the lines of the powerful .22 magnum... is it a "gamer load"?

Yes, there are folks who frown on those who want to shoot the mighty .45 Colt, then use a 160 grain bullet, and I've done the same from time to time, even taken it a step further by using a 140 grain round ball. :D I get the same recoil as my 1860's using the same ball, but the idea of using cased ammo with such a projectile to accomplish the same thing really grates on some people.
 
I have no experience with CAS, other than having noticed a few people at the range who were obviously practicing for such a thing, given the guns and gear they were using. But honestly, gaming will begin as soon as the first rule is written. It happens in the local sports car club's motorcross. The ones to beat are not the ones who drive there in their car, it's the ones who tow their car there on a trailer. But in real life, you drive what you drive and there are no rules about gunfights.

But this territory has been plowed up before, when we were all still watching Roy and Dale and Pat on television. Anyone remember the quick draw craze of the 1950s? Surely there are parallels. When did it begin? When did it end? People took it seriously at the time and a few people even thought it had some relevance to actual gunfighting. Chances are, it went through the same phases that CAS has been going through. And to be sure, there was gaming in fast draw, which was even easier because most of it was with blanks anyway. Naturally, there were those who thought that was ridiculous and used live ammunition, if not live targets. That was about where Jeff Cooper came in.
 
I tried the CAS for a little while.Overall,I think its a great thing.I'm glad its there,I'm glad folks are having fun.
For me,and this is about me,not CAS,a number of little things added up.I used to fence,with foil,sabre,eppe.I could get my juices up.I could really be in the fight,primal.
Around a bunch of people with guns,and thinking through the procedurals in the scenario,I could not get past cold.I stayed in thinking mode.
Some scenarios were just ridiculous,some were written to the skillsets of the gamer.
The one time I really got into it,and had a ball,was dueling tree.
 
I started this thread because I wanted to hear from the grass roots of the shooting community and I did.
Personally my finances kieep me from buying a new shotgun, rifle and some clothing that's what's keeping me out. I believe in wearing a new Hat and buying new guns because I don't want someone elses problems. That's just me because you can wear an old hat...
I think the economy is dragging many things down. I also think that since there are such definate requirements for Clothing and guns (there HAS to be to keep it origonal), the requirements set hard on a beginner. There's really not much you can do about that because if you want it to be right, you need to do it right.
I think CAS will hang on for the next 3 years and then the decisions will be made to keep it or not. The economy will either crash or be recovering and "Play" will again be in peoples bugets.
JMHO
ZVP
 
ZVP said:
Personally my finances kieep me from buying a new shotgun, rifle and some clothing that's what's keeping me out. I believe in wearing a new Hat and buying new guns because I don't want someone elses problems. That's just me because you can wear an old hat...
I think the economy is dragging many things down. I also think that since there are such definate requirements for Clothing and guns (there HAS to be to keep it origonal), the requirements set hard on a beginner. There's really not much you can do about that because if you want it to be right, you need to do it right.
Click to expand...

I'm not made of money, so I'll relate how I've done it. I hope it provides you (and the others who read this) a story of how you can "play cowboy" and not spend a ton of money.

I was faced with the problem of outfitting not one, but two of us (me and daughter). "Clothes?" they said? "Heck, if you've got a long sleeved shirt and some jeans, your fine." And they meant it. That's what I shot with to start with -- stuff we had in the closet or draw at home. Later, I traded an old vest that didn't fit anymore for a pair of "cowboy pants." I bought suspenders online for $12.99 plus shipping. Daughter has two outfits that are "period appropriate" when she doesn't feel like wearing her jeans (which she still wears most of the time). One is a dress that I bought her at a "big shoot" which cost me $28. The other is a split skirt and blouse I bought online during a sale -- $55 with shipping. I bought two "period appropriate" shirts on eBay for $28 with shipping for both. I also bought another pair of "cowboy" pants for $28 on sale at another shoot.

Guns? Well, I didn't have the first appropriate gun when I started. I shot other folks' stuff for the first shoot or two. Then, I got a line on a pair of pistols. They were new, but had been fired (one cylinder each) and the cowboy didn't like 'em. I got 'em for less than $700 for the pair. I picked up two pistols for my daughter (one at a time) for less than $400 each. Our first rifle was one we'd been "loaning" for about a month when the pard asks, "You wanna buy it?" "How much?" "Awww....how 'bout $500 and you can pay me out as you can." Sold. I bought our shotgun that we're still using off of GB (a 1904 mfg '97 pump) for $230 shipped. I hunted for a couple of months before I got that deal.

Does it take money to play? Sure. So does buyin' a boat and goin' fishin' or payin' your share of the huntin' lease in the hopes of baggin' a deer or something. I've probably spent $2500 over the last 8 months for both of us to play. I could have spent less, but I spent what I had. If I didn't spend it on CAS, I would've spent it on something else in the form of a hobby or entertainment.

The joy I've had of shooting with my kiddos, however, is worth every single penny I've spent.

The one thing I can't reiterate enough, however, is that the folks that I've been lucky enough to call "pards" bent over backwards, and then some, to make sure my daughter and I could shoot -- no matter what guns or clothes we had.

I hope you get in a position that you'll go out and shoot with your local club. I think you'll find out that it's not what some would have you believe it is. Go find out for yourself.

Tanker6
a/k/a Chickahominy Charlie
 
My wife and I are just getting into CAS. We have been to 4 matches so far and have got to shoot in 3 of them. The people there would loan us guns, let us take their turn and things like that. This Sunday will be our first official match with our own guns. Another shooter there heard we were looking for guns and offered to sell us a pair of Vaqueros and a Uberti 1866 at a good price so we bought them from him. For the shotgun I bought a Stoeger double barrel new. Our holsters were both bought at flea markets for $50 a piece. I reload so that was no problem. The gun cart I made from an old jogging stroller I picked up at a flea market for $40. All together we have spent around $3000 to get started. WE are going to start out using the same guns and see how we like it before we buy any more guns. Yes thats a lot of money but its a hell of lot cheaper than when we got into motorcycles about ten years ago.
 
A friend's wife is an accomplished seamstress (County fair prizewinning quilts.) and she makes their clothes. You can get sewing patterns for about any period and style of anything. They go as the Gold Dust Twins in matching outfits. Her skirt and his pants; his shirt and her blouse off the same material. She gets lace on the collar and pearl buttons, he gets horn or wood buttons.

Look, people. You don't have to go - I don't nearly as much as I used to - but there is no need to run down my game to justify you staying home.
 
"Don't know what your clubs are like, but there was no socializing, arrive, shoot, go home."

If you are in an area where there is more than one club within a reasonable distance then visit some other clubs. In our area there used to be one large club but the leadership changed, many shooters were made to feel unwelcome over a period of years and many people refuse to shoot there. Now there are two newer CAS clubs in the area where there is more socializing & joviality than the original club which has dwindled in numbers to about 1/3 of what it once was. The two new clubs get along splendidly and most of their shooters shoot at both new clubs. So find a club with a sense of humor that is not run by a "my way or the hiway" mentality and you'll find the fun factor that has made the sport grow.
 
Yea, changing over to CAS from your other shooting intresta is the catch! You get invested in other typesw of guns and even other Hobbies Like Boats or Fishing, and then trying to make the switch over to CAS is the stumbling stone Too many Irons in the fire for me, I guess!
It seems everyone with either a Single Action or a Cap and Ball revolver naturally wants to be in CAS! Just seeing the shooters blasting away at the steel and the aura of the times just does something to your soul! Going to an event is really like stepping back in time.
As a first timer, I went to my Club's shoot and got hooked immediatelly!
I don't know which is more intresting? Trying to slam Lead and Steel or trying to look like you belong?
Well I need to buy a Hat!
ZVP
 
Read all of the detractors posts then go to a SASS shoot. You will be surprised at the difference.
I've been shooting 8 years and have not seen more than 5-6 "gamers" in that time.
Most of the time the people classified as gamers are simply the ones that put in the time to practice and reach a skill level that makes winning probable.
There is no need for "handicap" rules.
There are enough SASS categories to suit everyone. We had a shoot in the midst of August heat three years ago in which we had 12 competitors. We all won. Everyone was shooting in a different category.
There are NO prizes or money offered to winners so every shooter in every category is shooting for self satisfaction or at the most "bragging rights".
I see "costuming" brought up time after time. Jeans, leather shoes and a long sleeve shirt are all that is required.
If you don't like our style of guns, then obviously you belong in another shooting discipline and good luck to you.
 
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