cartridge selection

N

Newton24b

Moderator
there has been some talk of the point/usefulness of the mid power level 357 magnum offerings. if they make full use of the cartridge potential, and are suitable for self defense.

ive been thinking something on those lines myself and made myself realize that 9mm isnt that bad these days.

the 357 mag midlevel ammo uses the same bullet weights and general velocity as 9mm self defense bullets, and creates the same rough range of muzzle energy.
 
9mm is about midway between .38 Special and .357, and the hottest 9mm loads are bumping up against the tamer .357 factory loads.

Some revolver guys accept .38+P but won't accept 9mm. 9mm is the same diameter and higher velocity though, so that one always leaves me wondering what they're thinking.
 
@Steve - that may be, but I don't think that small differential makes a difference once the bullet clears the gun (i.e. ballistically).
 
What counts is what happens in the real world. Pistols are poor stoppers but are the best you can do for a lot of situations.

Muzzle energy simply is irrelevant as you are not going to knock someone down with a 9mm or a 44 magnum. Its only useful if you know that a caliber is effective (or equally ineffective) for a use and to see how your caliber or load compares.

A pistol round is not going to one shot stop someone in their tracks (again that's what the data say will or will not happen, there are exceptions that one shot does it, and there are situations where 6 does not).

Taking all the data from actual shootings, the percentage of what a 44 magnum does over a 9mm is so small as to be irrelevant. You will need at least two shots or more and that is still not going to ensure an instant stop.

What has changed is that 9mm has moved up with modern SD ammo to the "equally effective" range along with 357 (magnum and Sig) .40 and 45 (41 and 44 magnums are not often used though my brother has a friend who took 4 rounds of 44 those and lived (he had a high cap semi auto and killed the other guy and now believes its round count over caliber).

There is no question that lab resutls and testing are invaluable when developing a bullet (SD hollow point etc). You can see if you are achieving your goals and how your results compare to each other (changes) and other mfgs (did they make this work better than we are?)

However, all of that is based on how the rounds performed in the real world.

So, the basis of a 14 inch penetration need is not from the lab but what occurred in actual shootings and where the deficiency were (not enough penetration, too much etc). It does not mean it will do exactly that in a real shooting. Its the best you can do though.

Its also a compromise. You can't tune each shot to the orientation of the individual that is being shot. Ergo 14 inches could be too much in one case but acceptable or even too little in another case (layers, side shooting etc).

So, the answer is 9mm with a modern SD rounds as good as any other major pistol caliber for SD.

Some LEO have a need for penetration and the 357 Sig or 357 magnum is better for that.
 
A factor not mentioned above is bullet profile. By nature a 9mm semi auto round must have a fairly round front profile to feed, thus a smaller Hollow Point Cavity than a Revolver cartridge. The larger Hollow Point Cavity of a 38 Special +P, or a 357 Magnum should tend to expand better than the smaller Hollow Point Cavity of a 9mm round.

My first handgun as a Police Officer in 1974 was a commercial Browning Hi Power. Besides the fact that is was not very accurate at all, it would not reliably feed most HP ammo of the day. If the ammo did not look like ball with a tiny HP Cavity it would not feed it. In short order I traded the Hi Power for a New 4" Model 28 S&W. The Model 28 was very accurate, and had no feeding issues with any ammo. I was a happy camper, and trusted the Model 28 to work if I needed it to. No such trust in the Hi Power.

Flash forward to 1992 I went to the Police Academy with a 4046 S&W. Still no confidence in the 9mm. No issues with the 4046, as best I remember I never had a single malfunction with it ever. I was Top Gun in the class with the DOA 40. The 40 S&W had a lot of research done on cartridge profile so it does feed reliabley with Hollow Point ammunition. The 40 S&W was designed from Day One to feed hollow point ammo, Not Ball.

I realize that the Modern 9mm handguns like the M&P and XD/XDm will feed Modern Hollow Point ammo without issues in 2012. The bottom line is the Hollow Point Cavity of 9mm cannot be made nearly as large as 38/357 and still feed.
I am not saying the 9mm will not get the job done. I am just saying that I believe that a Single Hit with a Hot 38 Special +P with a Good Bullet design will do more damage than a comparable Single Hit with a 9mm of the same approximate bullet weight.
The 125 grain 357 Magnum has been rated for years at 95% One Shot Stop. I have never seen any 9mm One Shot Stop Numbers nearly that high.
Where the 9mm comes to life is with a Hi Capacity Magazine. With 3 times the amount of ammunition in a single magazine as a revolver can hold, you can make up for the difference in expansion and stopping power with pure fire power.

I still like my revolvers for Concealed Carry. I have noticed a trend however. Young guys seem to like the 9mm, and semi auto's in general. Us Old Guys like our Revolvers.

Just my 2 cents.

Bob
 
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Current 9mm are much better than in the past. Check the "sticky" at the top of the ammo forum for the list.
 
even though the nose cavity isnt as large as a 38, alot of the premier 38 special ammo doesnt always open up, or as much as a 9mm does from a revolver. so overall size is rendered moot.
 
How many 9mms/mid range .357s can dance on the head of a pin?

in other words, irrelvant...

In the last 30m years, or so, there has been a huge revolution in handgun bullet design, and in the way we rate "effectivness".

Earlier generations rated the .38 Spl as more effective than the 9mm Luger. Why?

Because the 9mm only came with a very pointed FMJ bullet and the .38 came with a blunt RN or a flat point lead bullet.

Look at the original loading of the .357 and the 9mm. Today, the .357 is less than it was, and the 9mm is more.

There is no magic bullet. ANY bullet that goes where it needs to will stop the fight. One that doesn't, won't. And no maker can put that ability in a box.

Going by the statistics is playing the law of averages. Good for discussion, even good for policy of large organizations, where there will be large numbers of shootings over time. Any shooting you or I (as a private citizen) will be involved with could fall right in line with the averages. OR it could be completely outside the norm. Flip a coin, you will get one, or the other.

People have been stopped instantly with a .22LR. People have failed to be stopped with a 12ga slug. And everything in between has worked like a charm, and failed miserably, in individual examples.

Hollow points are not a guarantee. But they do up the odds. But even the best hollowpoint, performing perfectly will not stop an opponent unless it gets to the right spot. And that is dependent on YOU as well as the gun and ammo used, and the circumstances of the shot.

The only thing proven to shut someone off like a light switch is a hit to the right part of the brain or central nervous system. The right part. Massive blood loss to the brain will do it also, but that can take time, a minute, possibly more. Look at the Miami FBI shootout. A lot can happen in a miniute. And the bad guy dying afterwards doesn't change anything, except that there will be no trial for him....

Use what you have confidence in. Do everything right, the best you can. But know there is no magic bullet.
 
.357 Sig
:)
Most all 125 gr .357 Sig HP loads are loaded to the same approximate power / velocity.
With 9mm you have standard loads, +P and +P+ more variation in performance.
My Glock 33 produces the power of a snub .357 mag with a capacity bonus.
 
I'd have to say that you would have to first decide whether or not you'd rather carry along a revolver or an automatic; then talk about the cartridge, there being quite a difference between the two types of handguns. It is also a curious thing since good automatic pistols have been around for over a hundred years and revolvers have barely changed at all in that period, here speaking of revolvers that do not require a sling to carry.

I hesitate to bring up the one-shot stop issue but here goes anyway.

Some folks are firm believers in it, provided "their" cartridge is on top. Others discount the whole idea. Whatever the results might be, I think it is important for two reasons. The first one should be obvious: sometimes even getting in one hit is a matter of luck, unless you have some way of getting the other guy to stand still for a moment. The second is going to have some controversy attached.

The original writers about the one-shot stop suggested that second hits are much less effective than the first hit, making the first hit all that more important. You can argue the point if you wish. But the idea was that all of the physiological reactions of the human body immediately start kicking in and tend to counteract, at least, the pain. The effect of blood loss is never immediate if the wound is not overwhelmingly large, although it will produce a "stop" eventually, even though the wound is small. That is, assuming continual bleeding. People still show up at the emergency room with stab and slash wounds, you know, and have been known to die.

My first hand experience with such things is limited, you understand, but the deer in my backyard was still quite mobile with two broken legs but it only took two shots with a .22 to finish him off. His remains are there today (where we bury the bodies).
 
My choice of a daily carry weapon has always been a revolver, and my revolver of choice has always been a .357. This is strictly my opinion, but there is no way the 9mm can match the power of the .357, but I must admit that is my bias toward the .357 speaking out.
 
Well, here's something to get people all het up about. I'll bet I could knock anyone down with a .32 automatic, provided I could put the bullet where I think it would do that. Frankly, though, I doubt I could actually put it where it could count. Mind you, I'm not saying it would knock them three feet backwards (takes a .45 to do that!), just put them down. I'm not saying by any means that they'll stay down, either. I'm also not saying I'd really be willing to try it, like I suspect some might be tempted to drive downtown and look for an unattended soul.

Don't take it the wrong way. That doesn't translate into combat effectiveness either for handguns in general or .32s in particular. Moreover, my theory holds water, so to speak, within a very narrow "window of opportunity," although in a way, the window will probably always be open even when the other are shut. And by now I've probably lost you.
 
It may be but shot placement is easy to talk about, hard to do. And likewise, different calibers are easy to talk about but other factors sometimes loom large. Elmer Keith thought a S&W Model 29 with a 4" barrel was a perfect concealed carry gun but others may make a different choice for a number of reasons.
 
9mm is, in my mind, the semi-auto equivalent of the .38 Special in that both are at the bottom end of what can be considered an adequate service-class cartridge (one that can be trusted to both expand reliably and penetrate adequately with hollowpoints). Both cartridges have benefited greatly from improved bullet technology and can, with the right loading, deliver very good terminal performance. However, both cartridges require the user to be somewhat picky about load selection because, while they both have excellent HP loading available, there are still many very poor HP loadings being sold for both cartridges (neither is a cartridge I'd trust with generic WWB, UMC, or American Eagle JHP's).

Now, if all else is held equal (shot placement, recovery speed, magazine capacity, quality of bullet, etc.) I think that larger and more powerful cartridges like .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .44 Special, and .45 ACP are probably more effective than 9mm or .38 Special, but all is very rarely equal and the difference is small. Both 9mm and .38 Special are extremely efficient cartridges in terms of terminal effect delivered for recoil produced. From a medium or large frame handgun, both 9mm and .38 Special are very easy for even a moderately experienced shooter to handle and, in general, require less trigger time to master than larger and more powerful cartridges.

Likewise, while bigger cartridges cause somewhat greater tissue damage, the difference IMHO is not particularly significant as, with modern ammunition, all the service-class cartridges are designed to do about the same thing: penetrate 12-14" and expand to 1.5-2x their original diameter. It is not until you get to the magnum-class cartridges like full-power .357 Magnum, full-power 10mm Auto, .41 Magnum, or .44 Magnum that terminal performance is substantially different, but these cartridges usually come at the price of substantially more recoil and/or larger and heavier guns.

The largest advantage to the 9mm, in my mind, is its cost. For the non-handloader, 9mm is the cheapest centerfire handgun ammunition available. Even as a handloader, I've never had any interest in reloading 9mm ammunition because, even at today's ammo prices, it's just not expensive enough to be worth the time and effort to load. With a 9mm, most people can afford to practice more and skill with your firearm, IMHO, is much more important that caliber, velocity, energy, bullet diameter, or much of anything else.
 
I don't know if I've said it before but I think I'd be content, if not exactly tickled pink, with a .32 auto. Not just any, of course, but something on the order of a CZ-82/83 or one of the Berettas (not the smallest one, either). Likewise, I'd be content with a .45 auto, again, not just any but one of my own choosing. I've owned several and out of all of them, I'd probably pick a Colt lightweight Commander. But I don't have one and that must say something. I currently own two very similiar 9mm pistols. Most all of the .45s are just a little too large--but only barely. The smaller ones are just too much to shoot, which needs explanation. The one I had was a Colt lightweight Officer's ACP. It wasn't painful to shoot, was nothing like a .357 to shoot, had no blast worth mentioning and was a delight to carry but, boy, was it ever a handful to shoot. There wasn't going to be any fast shooting with it, if you really wanted to hit the target. But I still wish I had one.

I often thought it would have been better in 9mm and sure enough, there is a variation on the theme available now, the one with the funny sights. Pure Colt, too, if that means anything. Almost bought one but it really was more than I wanted to spend. Real nice gun, though.

I am always surprised at the high regard people hold for the .44 special. I assume that is the area of the true believers in hard cast lead semi-wadcutters and nothing else is remotely similiar. I'd just go ahead and look for a .44 magnum, that is, if you couldn't find a .41 magnum Model 58. Nice combination of features.
 
I don't see any real advantage of a 357 out of a 2 inch snubby compared to a 38+ or 9mm round out of a two or 2.5 inch 38 or nine barrel.

Moving to a 3 inch or longer barrel then the the 110gr 357 is pretty much the same as the better 9mm or 9mm+.

A 357 125gr out of a 3inch or longer gun has energy advantages over the 9mm+P...so it becomes a question, at this level, which do you shoot better.

A 357 with heavier cartridges, to me, posses significant problems of over penetration if your shooting humans.

Personally, I like the milder 110gr 357 but I'm shooting a 3 inch S&W 65 which is not too heavy so the heavier loads kick more than I like.
 
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