Jim Watson
New member
Ah, but is that convention or happenstance from the catalog writers?
And why British? We have been doing it for a long time, ever since the black powder cartridge era with the .50-70 and early smokeless like .30 Army.
Cartridge naming FAILs
- Thread starter Unlicensed Dremel
- Start date
Ah, but is that convention or happenstance from the catalog writers?
And why British? We have been doing it for a long time, ever since the black powder cartridge era with the .50-70 and early smokeless like .30 Army.
kilimanjaro
New member
To paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, clearly the American method of naming cartridges is the worst form of nomenclature, except for all the others.
I kind of think the .32 Colt New Police was a poorly named cartridge. Very misleading to consumers of the time (or even me when I inherited one!) only to find out you just put .32 S&W Longs in it... I guess at the time Colt didn't want to have Smith and Wesson printed on the side of their barrel! 
Jim Watson
New member
Undoubtedly so.
Ever see a .32 SAP headstamp? Savage Automatic Pistol. Same as a .32 ACP but they didn't want to have to put the competitor's name on their ammo.
Same reason the .44 WCF et al, got to be known as .44-40 when Marlin and Remington took it up. Strangely, some makers like S&W, M&H, and foreign builders proudly marked their revolvers .44 WCF or .44 1873. But they didn't make rifles.
And other makes than S&W stamp their pistols .40 Auto instead of .40 S&W.
Ever see a .32 SAP headstamp? Savage Automatic Pistol. Same as a .32 ACP but they didn't want to have to put the competitor's name on their ammo.
Same reason the .44 WCF et al, got to be known as .44-40 when Marlin and Remington took it up. Strangely, some makers like S&W, M&H, and foreign builders proudly marked their revolvers .44 WCF or .44 1873. But they didn't make rifles.
And other makes than S&W stamp their pistols .40 Auto instead of .40 S&W.
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Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
Yeah, and what, praytell, does the "40" stand for? Surely you cannot fit 40 grains of black powder in there.
This re-naming the same thing just because you don't want to stamp a competitors name on the round (like, ".40 auto"), has GOT to go.
Wyo, I'm with you on the .404 Jeffrey - that's a confusing one.
While you may consider them "fails" because they seem to make no sense, many times if you know the history, it makes perfect sense.
Colt and S&W had a serious rivalry that went on for decades. Neither one would put the other's name on their guns, or ammo, if they could help it.
Got any idea the difference between a .38 S&W Special and a .38 Colt Special? Only the name, and the bullet. .38 Colt was loaded a flat point bullet.
Yes, you can, and they did. With the original design "balloon head" cases. 40gr of black powder was also the load for the .45 Colt.
You cannot get that much powder in modern solid head brass, though.
And the .32 Colt New Police? .32 Colt (same shell as the S&W) for their New Police revolver. makes sense to me,
Remington and Winchester had generations of competing cartridges. And for a long time, both companies were reluctant to chamber their guns in the other guys calibers. Both eventually did realize that selling a gun, an anyone's caliber did make them money, and today, there is more overlap than there was in the past.
There is one consistent rule when it comes to cartridge naming. The people who invent/make it get to name it. And that's about the ONLY consistent rule.
Colt and S&W had a serious rivalry that went on for decades. Neither one would put the other's name on their guns, or ammo, if they could help it.
Got any idea the difference between a .38 S&W Special and a .38 Colt Special? Only the name, and the bullet. .38 Colt was loaded a flat point bullet.
Yes, you can, and they did. With the original design "balloon head" cases. 40gr of black powder was also the load for the .45 Colt.
You cannot get that much powder in modern solid head brass, though.
And the .32 Colt New Police? .32 Colt (same shell as the S&W) for their New Police revolver. makes sense to me,
Remington and Winchester had generations of competing cartridges. And for a long time, both companies were reluctant to chamber their guns in the other guys calibers. Both eventually did realize that selling a gun, an anyone's caliber did make them money, and today, there is more overlap than there was in the past.
There is one consistent rule when it comes to cartridge naming. The people who invent/make it get to name it. And that's about the ONLY consistent rule.
Yeah, but didn't it become to be named a .38 because the original heeled-bullet designs had the full bullet diameter at/about the exterior case dimensions... which was .38?
Some of the newer ones are outright fibs and made up. One of my favorite rounds, the .327 Federal is one. It's not a .327", and it's not even a .32, really, as are any of the .32's. They are .312". But didn't the .32s get named as such because of the heeled bullet/case diameter?
Isn't that why the .44 certainly isn't a .44, but rather a .429" ?
Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
Hmmm, interesting, thanks.
There are lots of cartridge names that I consider fails, to name just a few.
357 sig - 40 caliber case necked down to take a 9mm bullet, let's call it the what?
38 special - not a 38 caliber bullet, but a 35 caliber bullet, the OD of the case may be .38? in diameter
44 Magnum - with a bullet diameter of .429 I guess it sound better if you use the diameter of the case in the name.
303 british - You got me on this one, Cant find a spec anywhere for this cartridge that is .303 anything?
and the one that really gets me is the 30-06, before that cartridge, the two number cartridges usually meant the bullet caliber - case capacity, such as 45-70, 30-30..etc, then comes the 30 caliber -adopted in 1906, the 30-06???
BAH!
357 sig - 40 caliber case necked down to take a 9mm bullet, let's call it the what?
38 special - not a 38 caliber bullet, but a 35 caliber bullet, the OD of the case may be .38? in diameter
44 Magnum - with a bullet diameter of .429 I guess it sound better if you use the diameter of the case in the name.
303 british - You got me on this one, Cant find a spec anywhere for this cartridge that is .303 anything?
and the one that really gets me is the 30-06, before that cartridge, the two number cartridges usually meant the bullet caliber - case capacity, such as 45-70, 30-30..etc, then comes the 30 caliber -adopted in 1906, the 30-06???
BAH!
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Jim Watson
New member
Actually, the ORIGINAL cases were "folded head." Made like a .22 rimfire but with a centerfire primer. Lots of room for powder.
The first .45 Colts, like early .45-70, were inside primed. The primer was in the center of the case head but there was no external cap to see. The firing pin dented the copper or thin brass of the case over the primer.
Easy, nominal bore diameter is .303".
Well, there WAS the .30-03. Guess what that stands for.
And in some circles, the .44-40 was known as the .44 Winchester 1873.
kilimanjaro
New member
Ira, that's because we already had a .30 caliber cartridge, the .30 US (the rimmed Krag), followed by the .30 US adopted in 1903 (the .30-03), and finally the .30 US adopted in 1906 (the .30-06). I believe the .30 Carbine is the .30 US Carbine in Army nomenclature.
As for .303 British, well, 'Rule 311' just doesn't have the same authoritative ring to it.
As for .303 British, well, 'Rule 311' just doesn't have the same authoritative ring to it.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Naming a cartridge isn't science.
It's often as arbitrary as what the designer/company who brings it to market things sounds good.
2R Lovell.
It's often as arbitrary as what the designer/company who brings it to market things sounds good.
2R Lovell.
FrankenMauser
New member
That's a good one.
...A name standing for nothing more than the second chamber reamer. (Due to perceived design flaws with the first chamber reamer - for those unfamiliar.)
kilimanjaro
New member
.577 T-Rex.
All that power and not a single Tyrannosaurus anywhere.
All that power and not a single Tyrannosaurus anywhere.
"...Only some drunken Brit can explain the name..." Not a Brit nor drunk, but Jeffery was a firearms company in England. Owned by a guy named, oddly enough, W.J. Jeffery. And it's not .404 calibre. It's .423.
"...Naming a cartridge isn't science..." Nope. It's usually marketing in the civilian world. Sometimes a Military Intelligence thing. Like 7.62mm. Has nothing whatever to do with the cartridge. It doesn't convert mathematically from .308" either. .308" converts to 7.82mm
.303 British is an American term. Nothing do to with the Brits, the Empire or the Commonwealth. More marketing, as I recall.
"...they didn't want to have to put the competitor's name on their ammo..." Lot of that went on in the late 19th Century.
"...the one that really gets me..." The U.S. military has changed it's nomenclature for ammo and kit several times in the 20th Century. It's how you get an M1 Rifle and an M1903 rifle both using M2 ammo. That came from M1906 ammo.
Trying to figure out why a cartridge is named what it is can give you brain damage.
"...Naming a cartridge isn't science..." Nope. It's usually marketing in the civilian world. Sometimes a Military Intelligence thing. Like 7.62mm. Has nothing whatever to do with the cartridge. It doesn't convert mathematically from .308" either. .308" converts to 7.82mm
.303 British is an American term. Nothing do to with the Brits, the Empire or the Commonwealth. More marketing, as I recall.
"...they didn't want to have to put the competitor's name on their ammo..." Lot of that went on in the late 19th Century.
"...the one that really gets me..." The U.S. military has changed it's nomenclature for ammo and kit several times in the 20th Century. It's how you get an M1 Rifle and an M1903 rifle both using M2 ammo. That came from M1906 ammo.
Trying to figure out why a cartridge is named what it is can give you brain damage.