Carrying to and from work.

T

tucker251

Inactive
I live in Cali and just got hired for a government contract security job protecting 3 different government buildings or areas. From what I understand, I am allowed to have the gun holstered while on my way to and from work correct?


12031PC (b) (exception to prohibit to carry loaded firearm)

(5) Uniformed security guards, regularly employed and compensated
in that capacity by persons engaged in any lawful business, and
uniformed alarm agents employed by an alarm company operator, while
actually engaged in protecting and preserving the property of their
employers or on duty or en route to or from their residences or their
places of employment, and security guards and alarm agents en route
to or from their residences or employer-required range training.

Can anyone confirm that this is still in effect? And if so, what if I have to stop by a gas station or something on the way or from my post?
 
If I understand, you have been hired by a contractor for a job which requires that you be armed on duty. But you want people here to tell you what the rules are for being armed and, if you will be armed, how/where/when you are issued a weapon and the circumstances of retaining it while off duty.

I don't mean to be arch or nasty, but shouldn't those be questions for your employer and set forth in your company handbook like other conditions of employment? Your personnel department, or whoever hired you should answer all your questions, including whether you will be allowed to be armed at all.

Jim
 
Sure, don't worry about it. If anything goes wrong, and you wind up in jail, call me and we can chat. Perhaps I'll bake you a nice cake with a hacksaw blade in it.

Seriously, this is no place to get a legal opinion on California law. Remember, 62% of us on this forum still live in our Mom's basement. :)
 
Mozella, Thanks I needed a laugh to start my morning. :D:D:D:D:D

O/P, the internet is one of the worst places in the world to get specific legal information. Talk to your employer and or local L.E.
 
"I don't mean to be arch or nasty, but shouldn't those be questions for your employer and set forth in your company handbook like other conditions of employment?" No, its California State Law. 12031 of the Penal Code. Has nothing to do as to whether my employer thinks I should or shouldn't, once I clock in thats a different story.

"including whether you will be allowed to be armed at all" I was hired as an armed guard. Basically forced to buy a 9mm. Had a psychological exam. Questioned about firearm safety. Why would I not be armed? Thats not even part of my question. My question is about the transportation of the firearm to and from my place of employment.

"But you want people here to tell you what the rules are for being armed and, if you will be armed, how/where/when you are issued a weapon and the circumstances of retaining it while off duty." ummmmmm. No. Pretty sure I was asking about the transportation of the firearm to and from my place of employment. But nice try I guess? idk.

"Are you in uniform on your way to and from work?" yessir.

"Seriously, this is no place to get a legal opinion on California law." Fair enough. I just figured that with this being a forum for firearms, that somebody would have some sort of knowledge about the matter. Im sure I am not the only one who has asked this or experienced this. If I am, well then now others will be able to find the answer here. Thanks for the advice though man.

"Talk to your employer and or local L.E." Yup, already did that. I actually did that after I posted this. Called the local Sheriff's station and he did confirm that I could.

Ok. So I replied to all who answered, or tried to answer. Let me just get this out of the way, I am apart of several forums. At one point in time I was the new guy on those forums, just like I am here. And every single one had at least one or two guys who didn't give a flying F as to what you are asking or posting, if they deem it to be a stupid question, then they will fire back with the most demeaning response ever. I guess I have found that guy. Thanks for letting me know early. I personally do not believe in stupid questions. If a question is asked and I have knowledge on the subject matter, then I will answer it to the best of my ability. If I do not have any knowledge on the subject matter, well then I keep what little opinion I have on the matter to myself and move on to the next one, until I find one that I can actually give an educated response to. I will not, I say again, will not be an a-hole to someone asking what I may consider a stupid question. I will not demean you on a public forum to make you look stupid. I will not pick apart your question and make it to fit my smart-a response. Im just here to share what knowledge I have and to learn from others. Thats all I have to say on this so I am going to move on to the original subject.

So, if anyone else is wondering, YES! If you are an armed security guard, then you are allowed to travel in your POV to and from your job without having to put your firearm locked in the trunk or anything else like that. You are allowed to travel with it holstered. I called my local Sheriff's station and had a Deputy confirm this information. And yes, if you need to stop at like a gas station on the way to or from work then you can do so.

Thank you for your time everyone! Have a good weekend!!!
 
I asked if you wore a uniform to and from work. My opinion on the matter is if you are in uniform and stop for gas or whatever on the way to work you would be okay. If not in uniform I think a holstered gun might raise some questions that could make you late for work at the very least.

That's just my opinion and has no legal merit.
 
I like your question. I dont know the answer. That is good you got the sherriff's answer about how they are enforcing it.

I wonder how the local pd will react?

My point is that the only legal opinion that matters is the one the judge renders when some police officer guesses they should arrest you. The only person who can guess reasonably is a lawyer of that court...
 
Sport45. Yea I understand. My little rant was not directed towards you.

Nathan Well worst case scenario is that I will get arrested. But even if I did, I have the Penal Code to back me. Same way cops do when they make an arrest that others may not agree with, they have the penal code to back them.

Point is, 12031 b clearly states that an uniformed armed security guard traveling to or from his place of employment is allowed to travel with his gone holstered.

Oh and where I live there is no local PD. Well there is but the PD is contracted with the Sheriff's department so the PD is made up of deputy sheriff's lol.
 
OP,
This forum is full of answers like that. Most gun owners I hang around will try to help if they can but this forum is different like that. There is a ton of knowledge here that is valuable to me and I have learned to simply search.

It is almost frustrating to have people post when they don't have useful information and treat myself (or you) in this case like a FNG.

In order to be a relevant post for the OP let me say this:
If you feel like you should be worried about carrying, get the SO's opinion in writing, print out the CPC section that applies and stick them in your glove box. Also look to see if there is existing case law(usually found by Google search but you may need to visit a law library).

Places where the case law might be necessary is when you are within 1000' of a school (gun free school zone). A valid state carry permit is required to be exempt from that. Another exception is to be an LEO. It sounds like you are neither so check out that angle. Last I looked at maps of most big cities, it looked to be nigh on to impossible to not cross a school zone on the highways.

That's the only big concern I see with my 15 years of study of gun laws. This includes some time with Dave Kopel due to my ties with AZCDL. So I consider myself consciously incompetent in the hierarchy of gun law knowledge.

Good luck and don't give up on this forum. It can be frustrating but there is a ton of knowledge on this board.

Have a great time at your new job. Come on out to AZ where I live whenever you decide you want to buy land for less tha $1000/acre and carry whatever you want to where you want. Sorry, I never fail to mention that to CA folks :) :)
 
Yes, Tucker, I know who your rant was directed at. Now let me get in a few words.

The business about the wording of the law and some deputy's word mean absolutely nothing. What counts is the terms of YOUR employment on THAT job, at THAT company protecting their property and personnel per their contract. The state sets forth their rules for being armed in general; but your employer sets forth the rules for how and when you, as their employee under their contract, MAY be armed.

Frankly, you sound like an 18-year old on his first job. The question of your being armed is not even the first question you should be asking. To anyone with experience, issues like overtime pay would probably rank higher than when/if you will be legally armed.

You make it clear that you have not asked even the most basic questions of your employer, yet you want people to advise you who know nothing about your employer, the contract you will be working under, or the most basic terms of your employment. Believe me, there are things you are NOT asking that are a lot more important.

State law is a generality; but you will be working under specific, detailed rules set forth by YOUR employer, under HIS rules and the rules of HIS contract. If you don't work by THOSE rules, you could well find yourself not only out of a job but with NO legal cover for something you did that contravened THOSE rules.

If you don't like that, tough. Welcome to the real world, A real world job, carrying a real gun, is not like playing "cowboys" in a sandbox. Get used to that idea.

All that being said, I hope you do get the job, and learn as you grow into it. Good luck!

Jim
 
MAY be armed ??? So I guess they told me to provide a copy of my firearm permit, hired me as an armed guard, buy a smaller caliber side-arm, to make sure I have 3 mags and to ensure that I am using hollow's just in case I MAY be armed? Makes sense. Thanks for that input.

Frankly, you sound like an 18-year old on his first job And how would I sound like an 18 year old? Because you made a stupid reply to a genuine question and I replied back with a stupid reply? Hmmm, and your a staff member for the forums? Interesting selection if I do say so myself. Anyways, no, I am not 18. Not my first job either. Ive been in the military, worked armed security transporting money, bouncer at a bar and was a corrections officer for a few years. But your entitled to your opinion. Even if its the dumbest one I have ever heard.

The question of your being armed is not even the first question you should be asking Thats funny!!!! Because thats not what I am asking!!! How weird...

issues like overtime pay would probably rank higher than when/if you will be legally armed. That may be an issue in the future when I start having that problem. But even if it were an issue, why would I go to a sight about firearms to ask about my overtime pay?

but you will be working under specific, detailed rules set forth by YOUR employer, under HIS rules and the rules of HIS contract What I do when I am not on the clock is none of my employers business, to an extent. The question here is, can I legally carry a firearm to and from my place of employment without having to lock it up in the trunk. Or if I can have it holstered. Now what policy could an employer make to force me to leave my firearm in my trunk when off duty? NONE!!!

Ok, I am not trying to stir the pot here. I think some here might not understand what I am or was asking. CAN AN ARMED GUARD CARRY A FIREARM HOLSTERED ON HIS DUTY BELT TO AND FROM HIS PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT. The only thing my employer has to do with this is the fact that that is where I am going! Thats it! And the answer is YES! Sorry to whoever is reading this and doesnt like BS. Me neither! But I wont take BS and not give it back... I just asked a genuine question.

And thanks Snolden for the advice! We are looking to move to Arizona, Texas or Tennessee once I graduate. Most likely Texas.
 
Allow me to add my two cents. The law is not clear and I get the meaning of your question.

I am in the business and when you have an unclear statute that's when its subject to interpretation and disagreement. Throughout my career scenarios concerning your question have played out. Sometimes good, sometimes not so good.

My advise: get gas when you're off and try to avoid gassing up en route. Just get from portal (home) to portal (work) and make no stops along the way. The call similar to what you're asking about was where a security officer, armed and in uniform stopped to get gas. But just getting gas wasn't good enough. So, while filling up, he goes into the little store and buys a soda. And gets arrested after the clerk called 911 to complain.

Again, not being snarky, not taking cheap shots, so don't get defensive. You asked and I am giving you my opinion. Also, make sure you are carrying the statutorily allowed caliber handgun and ammo. A police officer (in FL) can stop and inspect your weapon and it is a crime to be in violation.
 
My Son owns a Security Company. I worked for him when he first started expanding (gave me the bad areas!) had some fun too.

At one spell, guns to be carried in case, in trunk, to and from. Then the rules changed (lobbying from the industry) so, get dressed, in uniform, holster up, out the door, gas, coffee, fine. No sit down eating in Restaurant, take out only.

Now you can carry, .40/.45 ACP, as well as 38 Special revolver, not .357! The old stand by, 9mm still.

The training is a refresher course (Re-Ql) mandated, each year. The training is Berny Fife style, boring, more interested in time attended, than content.

The new batch of Security Officers? Look like SWAT Officers, spotless, gleaming boots, mandated vests, most carry 9mm, FBI gone back to it!

Some see it as stepping stone to Police job, some are Ex Police, retired.

It is a fun job, you can make it so. One job I did, Fri/Sat/Sun nights, armed in a Gated Community, I chased the kids ragged! Drinking/Smoking, emptied the odd 40oz of Vodka into the grass! They called me Shawn Connery, the accent!

So much of what I did, I was not strictly supposed to do (according to my rules confused Son!) but he had a license to protect.

But realize, you could be confused with being a LEO! So watch your six!
 
Welcome to TFL, tucker251!

First and foremost, you might want to check the citation on the statute you've got in the OP. That section has been moved, if my research is corect. This may sound trivial, but if you ever have to cite it chapter and verse to an officer who wants you in handcuffs, you probably don't want to cite a repealed section of law to that officer. Anyway, here it is, with full citation:
(10) Uniformed security guards, regularly employed and compensated in that capacity by persons engaged in any lawful business, and uniformed alarm agents employed by an alarm company operator, while actually engaged in protecting and preserving the property of their employers, or on duty or en route to or from their residences or their places of employment, and security guards and alarm agents en route to or from their residences or employer-required range training.

Cal. Penal Code § 26030 (West)
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, there's no caselaw under this or the prior section (12031) that tells us exactly what "uniformed," "regularly employed and compensated," etc. means. Does it mean that your job requires a uniform? Or that you actually be wearing the uniform while carrying? It sounds like you'll already be in uniform while driving to work, so I don't expect this to matter much. Nonetheless, it's something I'd want to know, were that possible.

So you have this state law. What about municipal ordinances? Does CA have state preemption of those? Or are cities allowed to enact their own restrictions on gun possession & carry? That's part of this that I don't know.
 
Spats, would you worry at all about the way it is worded - "en route to or from their residences or their places of employment" - excluding stops? Not trying to make this into amateur hour legal consultation, but could that be interpreted as only in his car, not permitting him to stop at a grocery store or gas station?
 
TailGator said:
Spats, would you worry at all about the way it is worded . . . .
Click to expand...
I worry about how everything is worded. ;)
TailGator said:
. . . . - "en route to or from their residences or their places of employment" - excluding stops? Not trying to make this into amateur hour legal consultation, but could that be interpreted as only in his car, not permitting him to stop at a grocery store or gas station?
Click to expand...
It could be interpreted that way (so as to exclude stops), but there's no caselaw to give me any guidance as to whether it would be.
 
It's California and it doesn't say you can make stops. I wouldn't. In uniform going to and from work to my residence, holstered would be fine. Stop for gas or that gallon of milk, and the wrong officer just made an arrest. In just about any other state, I wouldn't worry about the extra stop, but in California? No thanks.
 
So today was day one on the job. I did not carry in my car to work because I did not have the uniform yet. I do now though. So our policy is to come into work holstered and chambered. If your not chambered then use a clearing barrel (we have no clearing barrels lol). I was not chambered and was not allowed to unholster unless I am about to shoot. So I sat all day without one in. So as far as work is concerned, once you badge in and that gate goes up, you need to be ready to go.

So holstered and chambered on the way to work it is! Thanks for all the advice fellas! Sorry again for my nastyness.
 
The call similar to what you're asking about was where a security officer, armed and in uniform stopped to get gas. But just getting gas wasn't good enough. So, while filling up, he goes into the little store and buys a soda. And gets arrested after the clerk called 911 to complain.
Click to expand...

What backward state was this in? Sounds like someplace to avoid, and I'm a 22 year veteran.
 
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